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USPSA RULE CHANGES VOTED
- Thread starter TY43215
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No one's pushing anyone anywhere, it's just a matter of which division they choose to shoot in. If you want to make certain mods, then you're in Limited, just as if you want a red dot and comp, welcome to Open.
Difference being that some people have shot nothing but Production and will now have to re-classify and shoot another division that they may not enjoy.
This is nothing less than a complete cluster****.
TY43215
NES Member
Difference is, there is no vote of any kind needed to change IDPA rules. The powers that be could see this rule and decide it is a good idea for IDPA divisions. With the stroke of a pen, the rule could change and you have no recourse whatsoever.
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
So they guy that has shot with a sub 3lb trigger since Production started is choosing to change division? The Mods have been happening for 10+ years. How is this the shooter choosing divisions? You just forced him out. How can you be OK with that?
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I'd assume that it would be relatively easy to bump the trigger back up to 3+ pounds. No change in division necessary. With a Glock, just change a spring or two, no big deal.
It is a big deal if you just spent a lot of money on a trigger job. Its also a big deal to ask shooters to get used to a new trigger weight, when it brings nothing beneficial to the division. There is no need for this restriction.
I really don't see this three pound limit as a big deal. It is relatively easy to adjust trigger pull when you are only dealing with a few ounces. Also, I wouldn't expect trigger pull to be a problem at local matches; you would just have to make sure your gun was kosher for the major matches. I think the real problem is that the USPSA BOD has created their own "Production Division" that bears little resemblance to IPSC Production.
This is going to create a equipment race. The gun to have will be the DA/SA like the CZ, you will have a nice light pull for all but one of your shots. IPSC has this rule and it pushed out striker fire guns. Then everyone that said, "change a spring, its no big deal", will be bitching that their light weight, heavy trigger pull gun can't compete with the heavier, no recoil, light trigger CZ.
We will go from a division where all manufacturers have an gun that is competitive down to just a few, It will be just like Limited and Open, where one gun heavily dominates
We will go from a division where all manufacturers have an gun that is competitive down to just a few, It will be just like Limited and Open, where one gun heavily dominates
And this is exactly what should NOT happen to Production.
Dirtypacman
NES Door Greeter
I have to agree the change of trigger pull weight is by no mean necessary. It seems that is going down the path of nit picking for no real benefit.
I guess I just don't see the need for the change.
I guess I just don't see the need for the change.
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If that's the case, then if they intend to go ahead with the first shot minimum trigger weight, they should really have a minimum trigger weight for all shots. That would make more of a level playing field, and not make the DA/SA triggers a huge advantage.
Mike- in an open forum- I'm going to say something I may later regret. But I respect you for your dedication and commitment to a division that is one that you haven't really been that active in. If anything you are consistent. I commend you.
Ok- enough of that crap. I was looking at the CZ 75 SP01 TARGET- damn that thing has a 4 lb DA trigger!! The DA is lighter than my Glock's SA pull! So the question to you is: How much real advantage do you think a 2.5 lb trigger pull is compared to a 4 lb trigger pull in a typical local 6 stage match? Now obviously it depends on the shooter and the match, but in general do you think it's big? I hear the "It's the Indian, not the arrow" all the time... and for the most part I think people lose track of the real work that is needed to shoot at the top levels at matches... but heck I have to believe the trigger pull DOES matter... at all levels.
I don't think the trigger pull is that significant, but obviously most people do because it is the first change they make. A better trigger makes shooting easier, but doesn't make you a better shooter. But if a shooters want the light trigger and USPSA has allowed it for 10 years, why take that away from them now, how does that benefit USPSA shooters?
As it sits now, there is balance, have a decent consistent trigger vs a heavy DA first shot, but a great trigger for the rest. Change the rules and the balance goes to DA/SA, making a majority of shooters feel their striker fire guns are not competitive. If you make the pull weight consistent for all shots, then it pushes out the DA/SA as those shooter no longer feel their guns can be competitive.
So if you bump up the trigger weight, what benefit does it provide? What equality does this bring?
Are people thinking that by bumping the trigger pull they will finish higher overall? This is how they will move up the ranks, by taking away from others?
I wasn't sure if all those questions are directed directly to me.. but I'll respond.
I can't control how well others shoot or hard/little they train.... only myself. Personally... I do think a "nice" trigger helps (more in certain situations that others for sure), albeit I have no idea how much really. When I say "nice" trigger- I'm talking about more than just the trigger pull as you know. I have no issue with people shooting with 2.5 or 3 lb triggers while I'm at 4 lbs, nor do I have issue with the people with heavier guns than the one I typically shoot. Maybe I'll try to get mine down to 3 lbs, but I think my time and money would be best spent elsewhere for now. If I want an unfair advantage- I'll do this myself with solid training.
I've said we should keep the Production rules as they were and not have a trigger pull limit. As far as the rules that are in place for Production- they are just as arbitrary as the trigger pull rule that went through. It's not whether the new one is better or worse than the others... but it's the fact the the competitors are ok with the prior rules so why change it... the division is fun, competitive and growing. What else is there to measure that is of any real significance?
Maybe it's me... but as an outside observer... this begs the obvious question... Where is the "problem" this trigger pull weight thing was trying to solve? You mean to tell me someone complained about guys with slicked up Glocks and M&P's having "too much of an advantage" in Production? If that's the case I am kind of finding that hard to believe.
Not to mention, one of the main attractions to USPSA is that it generally doesn't have this kind of "byzantine empire" type crap in the rules like another action shooting discipline does that shall remain nameless. Adding a weight restriction pushes the sport more in that direction. Making things more complicated than they need to be makes less people want to participate.
-Mike
Not to mention, one of the main attractions to USPSA is that it generally doesn't have this kind of "byzantine empire" type crap in the rules like another action shooting discipline does that shall remain nameless. Adding a weight restriction pushes the sport more in that direction. Making things more complicated than they need to be makes less people want to participate.
-Mike
Mike makes a lot of sense here. No matter what Lugnut says about him.
Rob Leatham had a very good post about this topic on the Enos forum. This rule will only hurt striker fired guns while DA/SA guns like the CZ will have the advantage of a light trigger for the second shot and beyond. But no one is discussing the advantage these guns already have being much heavier to help fight recoil. Now they will have both advantages of the better trigger and the weight. They are destroying the one thing this division was invented for which is creating a division where many different guns can be competitive.
I agree with what Mike says in principle, but in practice I don't see enough difference between a 2.5 lb trigger and a 3lb trigger to argue over. What really puzzles me is why the USPSA imposed this limit. It seems like a solution for a non-existant problem.
Mike also says he didn't think a light trigger makes you a better shooter... so then why all the uproar? To protect the investment of all the fools that paid for fancy trigger work?![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Its all about unneeded restrictions that are short sighted, rushed through and are of no benefit. I've had enough of it from the government and don't want to see USPSA go down the same path
i agree with Mike, that being said, at the matches I run, feel free to bring what you always have, as I won't be checking any trigger pulls, EVER
and i bet that goes for the majority of local matches that are like the only matches that 80 or 90% of the membership shoots, this will only affect those who shoot majors, and that percentage of people will probably suck it up and get over it, or find a way around it. It's pretty easy if you think about for like a second, and think, ooo i think i need a "backup" gun, and will just "bag" my gun before I head off to chrono/trigger weight measurement land
hell, you think people cheat on power factors, they are going to cheat on this, who cares, go out, shoot and have fun
and i bet that goes for the majority of local matches that are like the only matches that 80 or 90% of the membership shoots, this will only affect those who shoot majors, and that percentage of people will probably suck it up and get over it, or find a way around it. It's pretty easy if you think about for like a second, and think, ooo i think i need a "backup" gun, and will just "bag" my gun before I head off to chrono/trigger weight measurement land
hell, you think people cheat on power factors, they are going to cheat on this, who cares, go out, shoot and have fun
TY43215
NES Member
3# Production trigger re-voted
USPSA Online Board Meeting Minutes: Details View
Start Time/Date:
End Time/Date:
1/10/12 12:00 AM
1/17/12 11:59 PM
Title:
Production Division change
Date of Motion: 1/10/12 08:10 PM
Closed: 1/17/12 12:00 AM
Submitted by
Seconded by: Area1
Status: Posted
Result: Passed
Motion:To remove the 3lb minimum trigger pull limit previously added to Production division specifications.
