USPSA RULE CHANGES VOTED

Most M&Ps with the Apex Competition AEK, put the pull weight from 2.25-3 pounds, depending on the gun, the springs, and where the trigger is measured. I would not expect any of them to pass.

Personally, I no longer own a gun suitable for Production, which is unfortunate.

I have no problem with a division for carry guns, but if that's really the intent of Production, there's a lot more rule changing to do than merely setting a trigger weight, in my opinion.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
An interesting tidbit regarding the Glock 34 -

The MA target roster covers guns that are "designed and market solely for formal competition target shooting". I was contacted the Glock's chief legal counsel regarding the MA situation, and I explained the statutory testing requirement, the alternative "target list", and the fact that the AG's regs contain an exemption for formal target shooting guns (Including on the target list represents an EOPS finding that gun is indeed designed and marketed only for formal competition target shooting).

I was really hoping I could get Glock to submit an application to get the Glock 34 on the roster. After looking into it, Glock's counsel advised me that they had marketed that model for both competition and defensive use, and the company was not in a position to make a written statement that this model had been "Designed and marketed solely for formal competition shooting".

Oh yeah - the Glock 34 trigger is heavy enough to pass any reasonable 3# trigger pull test. It's claimed to be 3lb, but in reality, tends to measure a bit higher.

It is very easy to draw a crisp line regarding trigger pull - in fact, it's VERY easy to find MANY reputable trainers who will state that carrying a gun with a 2.5lb trigger on the street is not advisable. It's much harder to find a universal consensus as to exactly what level of slide length makes a gun uncarryable.

One thing that we did not get into was "marketing statements" by the manufacturer, but instead considered suitability for carry purposes. If someone produced a gun with a 1lb trigger and labeled in the "Urban Carry Special", that wouldn't make it a carry gun - any more than calling a dog's tail a leg gives you a 5 legged dog. The converse is also true - the label "comp" does not mean something is not carryable.

The "carry" makes no statement about "concealed", and a DOH holster could indeed be carried openly.



The disagreement is a very legitimate basis for a discussion of the issue. All the other points are contortions to fit a desired conclusion to the existing framework.
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The contortions to fit are on both sides
I can find just as many "reputable trainers" say open carry in a DOH is not advisable.

Glock's legal council does what is best for Glock, not ma and not USPSA. Their option is based solely on liability.

So on to why Production should not be carry;
1.We do not require any tactics or equipment that is beneficial to carry, there is a Sport that does, it was founded because USPSA was no longer "practical"

2.To change Production to the full spirit of carry would take away freestyle, in the equipment we choose and the way we shoot.

3.There is a place for carry guns in USPSA, there are no restricts that would prohibit any of the guns in the divisions currently, but some typical and popular carry holsters are not allowed in any division.

4. Production either needs to be production or carry, it can not be both with out be a watered down, mess of both

Production guns should be as produced from the factory with no change in the gun or mag capacity.
Carry should stay with IDPA
 
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Rob Boudrie said:
Asserting that it will not be possible to come up with a way to measure trigger pull that is accurate, but still errs on the side of the shooter, is a distraction to the real issue.
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Not arguing against the new rule, either on principle or measurement difficulties. I was just thinking about the surprisingly wide range of readings I get on my Glock trigger. If the pull will be measured with the procedure in appendix F2 of the IPSC rule book, then I think that's a fair measurement.

I'm imagining - in a comical sense - the desperate arguments from the competitor who measured his trigger at 3 lbs 4 oz on his Lyman trigger gauge, thinks he's fine, and finds he's now shooting open division. Particularly, accusing the tester of raising the gun up too fast.
 
bill o said:
Particularly, accusing the tester of raising the gun up too fast.
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I personally believe that the raising of the gun should either be done by the shooter in all cases, or the procedure should give the shooter the chance to perform the test if it does not pass when done by the RO. Any procedure must not be subject to subjective properties, and any benefit of the doubt must go to the shooter.

Similar benefit if the doubt is built into the chrono procedure with the 3+3+1 measurement system.
 
Supermoto said:
The contortions to fit are on both sides
I can find just as many "reputable trainers" say open carry in a DOH is not advisable.

Glock's legal council does what is best for Glock, not ma and not USPSA. Their option is based solely on liability.

So on to why Production should not be carry;
1.We do not require any tactics or equipment that is beneficial to carry, there is a Sport that does, it was founded because USPSA was no longer "practical"

2.To change Production to the full spirit of carry would take away freestyle, in the equipment we choose and the way we shoot.

3.There is a place for carry guns in USPSA, there are no restricts that would prohibit any of the guns in the divisions currently, but some typical and popular carry holsters are not allowed in any division.

4. Production either needs to be production or carry, it can not be both with out be a watered down, mess of both

Production guns should be as produced from the factory with no change in the gun or mag capacity.
Carry should stay with IDPA
Click to expand...

I agree with almost all of this Mike. I never honestly looked at Production to be "Carry Only" type guns- that would be silly... even in IDPA for that matter. To me it comes down to what the Production division is supposed to be. My interpretation is that it's a division that allows people to use common off the shelf guns in a competition environment.

The real question to me is: How much is too much for Production?

I never liked the ability to use magnetic holsters.... to me that bordered on race type gear. This was another change they made- no longer legal. Production already has some rules that don't make sense to me- like no grip tape anywhere on the slide... I really don't get that at all. As far as the "trigger race" I'm not sold on the change nor am I really against it. But part of me is wondering if a gun with tricked out parts internally is what Production is supposed to be. Yes, I understand that I don't have to do it if I don't want.... but let's face it- in general, a tricked out gun can be and often is more competitive that the not-tricked out version. How far do we go before we are shooting Limited 10 Minor guns?
 
Lugnut said:
The real question to me is: How much is too much for Production?
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I don't think its an issue of how much, but an issue of saying this one feature gives an unfair advantage, but these (many) others do not, when none of them fall under what a Typical carry-suitable gun would be. BOD wants a 3lbs, make the restrict based on that, not that it falls under the philosophy of carry, when nothing else does. Lets be honest here, the restriction is because it is easier than doing an inspection of the gun or having aftermarket parts in a gun that may or may not be OEM. Its just hiding behind the curtain of "Carry"

So how far is to far? Any changes should be outlawed in production. As I have said, guns as they are produced with the capacity from the factory. There are division that allow changes outside of this.
 
Supermoto said:
So how far is to far? Any changes should be outlawed in production. As I have said, guns as they are produced with the capacity from the factory. There are division that allow changes outside of this.
Click to expand...

Now that would be interesting.... how about just allowing me to change sights. Glocks suck from the factory. :)
 
Dave, what's the trigger pull on your M&P 9Pro with the APEX competition AEK in it? I haven't measured mine but they claim "will yield a consistent sub 3 lbs trigger pull".

I have a feeling this rule will annoy more existing shooters than it will attract new shooters.
 
eisenhow said:
Dave, what's the trigger pull on your M&P 9Pro with the APEX competition AEK in it? I haven't measured mine but they claim "will yield a consistent sub 3 lbs trigger pull".

I have a feeling this rule will annoy more existing shooters than it will attract new shooters.
Click to expand...

I'll check and let you know.
 
Rob, USPSA should then instead remove the wording that production guns should be suitable for carry. Please also tell me how many guns come from the factory with grip tape? Elected official are supposed to be the voice of the people who they represent. People are speaking, the majority against it. This rule is overwhelmingly going to create more problems than fix anything. Not that anything is broken. As my representative I am letting you know I am opposed to this rule.
 
eisenhow said:
Dave, what's the trigger pull on your M&P 9Pro with the APEX competition AEK in it? I haven't measured mine but they claim "will yield a consistent sub 3 lbs trigger pull".

I have a feeling this rule will annoy more existing shooters than it will attract new shooters.
Click to expand...

Using my cheap spring gauge Here is what I got. Now my Glock has that safety tab in the middle and the M&P trigger safety is such that you need to put the hook towards the tip or you can't pull the trigger.

Glock 34 Primary 4 lbs
Glock 34 Back up 3.25 lbs
M&P Pro 3 lbs

Now after talking with others in reading about this "change" I'm starting to think it's a bad idea. It won't really effect me personally as I can make some tweaks to get me where I need to be even on the PRO. But the thing is- no one likes the change, and mostly it's going to piss off the majority of existing customers NOW with the hope that it may get us some newer shooters? I doubt that. I also think that the testing is going to be a PITA with these guns- just look at the trigger pads with the safeties... I can see someone complaining that the hook was too close to the tip of the trigger, etc., etc.

Bottom line- Production is doing very well in our patch and the shooters aren't happy with it. Why screw up something that is working so well?
 
Lugnut said:
Bottom line- Production is doing very well in our patch and the shooters aren't happy with it. Why screw up something that is working so well?
Click to expand...

With due respect to Mike's cogent arguments and Rob's spirited defense, the above quote says it all.
 
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There's another game that's based around shooting carry guns, do we really want USPSA to be more like that?

That statement of principle has been around for years for people to comment on, but I don't think anybody knew that that implied future rules changes to include a minimum trigger weight and whatever else. I think the principle of production should be: factory produced non single action guns with modifications limited as they are in the current rulebook. Production is hugely popular already, don't screw with it.

Rob, as one of your constituents, I urge you to vote to repeal this ill considered and unnecessary change. If it stands, and other production changes occur as well without any consideration of what a majority of actual production shooters want, I'll be shopping for a different division and possibly a different pistol sport. My production trigger is already 4#s, but who knows what will change next.
 
I'm in the same boat as jar - I think the principle of Production should be focused more on the "stock or nearly-stock" guns, and not on what is "carry-suitable". Trigger work, grip tape, sights, and similar modifications don't detract from that principle, and don't make bone-stock guns any less viable.

The 2009 policy statement reads, in part, that USPSA wants to be "respectful of both members existing investments in guns and current modifications". Rules changes like this are anything but respectful of those investments, since people with sub-3 lb triggers will either need to buy new parts, discard parts they bought, or have gunsmithing work done to bring their guns into line with the new rule. If changes like this continue to be made, then every year Production shooters will have to modify their guns to adhere to the new rules, which will definitely drive people out of the division, or out of the sport altogether.

I think that the existing members' wishes, and respect for their investment in the sport, should take priority over any desire for Production to be for "carry-suitable" guns. I urge Rob and the rest of the BOD to revise their policy statement to that effect, and to repeal the trigger rule change.
 
I'm getting a chuckle out of this long slide/carry talk. The original work horse of IPSC competition was the 1911 with a five inch barrel and slide. This pistol was, and still is, considered to be practical for defensive carry. Production guns with five inch slides/barrels would seem to me to be just fine as carry guns.

The trigger pull limitation doesn't affect me as I shoot a DA/SA gun. I don't see any problem with a 3lb limit on trigger pull; how light do you really have to go? I do agree that enforcement of this rule could be problem.

My real complaint about Production rules is the lack of consistency. The USPSA/IPSC is allowing the gun manufacturers too much leeway. An example is checkering. You may not checker the front strap of your pistol, but a pistol that comes with checkering from the factory is legal. This type of regulation opens the door for expensive factory customs in Production.

One thing really puzzles me. The ban of mag wells in Production. It is not a big deal as most Production guns are double stack which tend to reload a lot easier than single stack. This rule does, however, present a real disdvantage for a single stack gun in this division. OK, I can't name any single stack Production guns but the possibility does exist. My point is that mag wells are a relatively inexpensive mod that many people use on practical carry guns. Why not in Production?

I have been shooting Production for a couple of years now and really enjoy it. The 10 round limit is what I like. Reloading has become a major factor in match performance, just like the good old days. I use a DOH holster but could easily get along without it. I found this rig a great help during some rotator cuff problems but I am now healed. The only reason I can suggest for this type of rig is that it closely approximates the position of a "duty" holster. Personally, I couldn't care less what internal mods my fellow competitors are using; I think success in this division will favor skill, not equipment, although I have invested some serious $ in equipment.

The only rule change that bothers me is the ban of magnetic mag carriers. I just finished a couple for those stages where you have to pick your mags and gun up off of a table at the start. The magnets make it easy to stick your extra mags to your belt rather than hand carry them. All that hard work down the drain.
 
M1911 said:
What does this mean?
Click to expand...

eisenhow said:
You can't use a magnet to hold your magazine
Click to expand...

It also means that you can't use something like this either:
slmc_moda__78549_zoom.jpg
 
Gammon said:
Personally, I couldn't care less what internal mods my fellow competitors are using; I think success in this division will favor skill, not equipment,
Click to expand...

After 5 pages I'm glad I only shoot steel. This is getting confusing. No disrespect to anybody shooting any discipline but I thought the basic principal in USPSA was to analyze the situation and solve the problem any way you saw fit. I could be wrong but this is almost starting to sound like IDPA.

Having met Rob and shot with him in the past I would believe he would do what he considered best for the sport above all other concerns.

Any way you look at it Gammon hit it on the head Skill not equipment! [pot]

Dave
 
Supermoto said:
The contortions to fit are on both sides
I can find just as many "reputable trainers" say open carry in a DOH is not advisable.

Glock's legal council does what is best for Glock, not ma and not USPSA. Their option is based solely on liability.

So on to why Production should not be carry;
1.We do not require any tactics or equipment that is beneficial to carry, there is a Sport that does, it was founded because USPSA was no longer "practical"

2.To change Production to the full spirit of carry would take away freestyle, in the equipment we choose and the way we shoot.

3.There is a place for carry guns in USPSA, there are no restricts that would prohibit any of the guns in the divisions currently, but some typical and popular carry holsters are not allowed in any division.

4. Production either needs to be production or carry, it can not be both with out be a watered down, mess of both

Production guns should be as produced from the factory with no change in the gun or mag capacity.
Carry should stay with IDPA
Click to expand...

I think that there's two issues here, one, what can we shoot, and two, how can we shoot. Keeping production limited to standard carry gear, with small modifications, is fine. That won't make us like IDPA, unless we start dictating how we can shoot. Right now it's still USPSA, but with a restricted type of gear. I can live with that. And if people want to be more "gamey," then go to Limited or Limited-10.
 
vellnueve said:
Awesome, my XDM has a 2.75lb trigger and my M&P has the sub 3lb trigger from Apex in it. Bastards.
Click to expand...

It's far from a done deal. At least some of the BoD appear to be learning from the massive backlash. I think there's a solid chance this is reversed before it goes in to effect (Jan 2013).
 
I hope so. Considering that w/ shipping the XDM cost upwards of $250 to have done, I'm just as likely to stop shooting USPSA as I am to have the trigger reworked.
 

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