Using modified firearm (trigger Kit) for self defense.

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runner328

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Can a firearm with a trigger job like an Apex kit or one done by a gunsmith for target shooting be used for self-defense? A co-worker told me that a firearm that has been modified in any way and used in a self-defense situation at home or outside the home can be interpreted in a court of law as intent to do harm versus self-defense.
 
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Not a lawyer or law expert, but I can contribute three things:

1. I too have heard the warning that modifications to your firearm could be used against you if you faced charges for using it in self defense. The argument usually goes that you can expect the prosecutor to come up with something like "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we can tell the defendant had a bloodthirsty desire to kill by the fact that he modified his gun to have a hair trigger and other features to make it faster and more deadly"

2. I can completely believe some prosecutor who cares more about his "win" rate than justice would use that sort of argument and than a jury of dullards would buy it.

3. I have no direct knowledge of it actually happening like that and you're still better with "the right gun is the one you have when you need one" and "better judged by 12 than carried by 6". I'd love to hear that this is urban legend/misinformation among the gun community.
 

sgeary

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So by his logic you shouldn't carry hollow points either right? Or ammo in general. I wouldn't worry about it, it's a trigger.

A lighter trigger would mean there would be a smaller chance of jerking the trigger, missing your target and hitting a bystander, right?
 
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enbloc

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Beats a sharp stick to the eye...


That is to say: Survive first; consequences later.
 
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A prosecutor could argue that you were bloodthirsty because you just had a steak dinner. Sure, they could try and argue that you modified your gun to make it more killier, but I don't see how that could turn a good shoot into a murder. You'll want a good defense attorney either way, and they should be able to refute this pretty easily.
 

NHAtHeart

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There is a lot of fear mongering around modifying your firearm or using reloads as defense loads.

I don't think I've ever seen a case law where this was used as a pivot point to convict a valid self defense case.
 
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So by his logic you shouldn't carry hollow points either right? Or ammo in general. I wouldn't worry about it, it's a trigger.

A lighter trigger would mean there would be a smaller chance of jerking the trigger, missing your target and hitting a bystander, right?
Hollow points got/get ragged an awful lot. Don't carry anything with an intimidating name. R.i.p ammunition or black talons. If they sound scary don't shoot with em. Conversely Hornady Critical defense sounds much better to a jury. The defense got easier when the cops started carrying hollow points.

As for the o.p's question yeah about the only thing they will leave alone is night sights. Trigger mods barrel swap extended mags.
Look up Harold fish. Guy was walking in the woods carrying a Kimber 10mm. It was his woods gun he ended up shooting a guy and got railroaded by the prosecution because he was using"such a high power caliber that our police don't even use". They will get you for almost anything if they can
 

enbloc

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Do drunk drivers get more time for having a turbo?



(30 years ago I would have said blower...[smile])
 

CrackPot

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He is bloodthirsty because:
he modified the trigger from 99lbs to 5 lbs
he modified the sights so he could see in the dark
he carried the gun with a round in the chamber
he changed the grips so he more easily bash someone over the head
he carried more than 3 boolits in the magazine
he carried spare high capacity clips


Sure. Be scared. Or just make the gun useful as the tool you need and move on.

The state wants its sheep to be scared blithering idiots. Try and avoid the conditioning
 

rivet_42

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Not a lawyer, not legal advice, yada.

I personally consider this an urban legend. Find me a case where this was used to convict somebody by turning an apparent valid self-defense shooting into a bad one, and I might believe it.

If you have to engage in a defensive shooting, you should be in a situation where you absolutely, positively meant to fire the gun. "Yes sir that man's actions put me in fear for my life. I had no choice but to draw my pistol and fire." If you absolutely meant to fire the gun then it doesn't matter how heavy, or not, the trigger is.
 

drgrant

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Can a firearm with a trigger job like an Apex kit or one done by a gunsmith for target shooting be used for self-defense? A co-worker told me that a firearm that has been modified in any way and used in a self-defense situation at home or outside the home can be interpreted in a court of law as intent to do harm versus self-defense.
It won't die!!!! Aaaugh. [rofl] Tell your co worker to stop huffing the jar of rubber cement with Ayoob's picture on it...

[video=youtube_share;V66m52YFZBg]http://youtu.be/V66m52YFZBg[/video]
 
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drgrant

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Hollow points got/get ragged an awful lot. Don't carry anything with an intimidating name. R.i.p ammunition or black talons. If they sound scary don't shoot with em. Conversely Hornady Critical defense sounds much better to a jury. The defense got easier when the cops started carrying hollow points.

As for the o.p's question yeah about the only thing they will leave alone is night sights. Trigger mods barrel swap extended mags.
Look up Harold fish. Guy was walking in the woods carrying a Kimber 10mm. It was his woods gun he ended up shooting a guy and got railroaded by the prosecution because he was using"such a high power caliber that our police don't even use". They will get you for almost anything if they can
Wrong. Fish got borked because he ran his mouth to the police when they showed up. This caused his testimony to suck as the only witness. The prosecution was able to get the jury to not trust him.
 
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Finalygotabeltfed

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Can a firearm with a trigger job like an Apex kit or one done by a gunsmith for target shooting be used for self-defense? A co-worker told me that a firearm that has been modified in any way and used in a self-defense situation at home or outside the home can be interpreted in a court of law as intent to do harm versus self-defense.
No, you absolutely must succumb to what ever an assailant dishes out to you or your family......you must never EVER use a modified trigger for anything other than shooting benign paper targets on a range.

Now, a baseball bat is different, you can drill the end and fill it with some lead and simply claim it was modified to improve your swing.

Some day I WILL have a third story window to jump out of...........................................
 
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Next time tell your coworker "Ok, Massad," in your most sarcastic tone.
Winner! I can't believe that this old saw is still around. Mas has done many great things, but this premise does no one any good.

You're co-worker is misinformed. Be gentle but let him know.
 
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I have had this argument with a friend going back and forth, My take is if you shoot someone in MA what trigger you have in your gun is going to be the least of your problems.
 
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not this shit again.

next on the agenda:

1. cop killer boolits, what are they and how do they work?
2. is an uncle mike's holster really sufficient?
3. how to quickly draw from a SERPA holster.
4. the man, the myth... tex grebner.
5. massad ayoob worship break.
6. "on killing", a book club discussion. how reading a book will make you an expert on the internet.

did i miss anything?
 

stinx

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Anytime you deviate from the stock configuration you potentially open a door for a attorney to attack. even with this door open if the modifications you made are sensible you can actually show that they made the pistol safer by making it easier to accurately shoot so that you are less likely to miss endangering innocent bystanders.
Just remember anytime you give the prosecutor a window he will take it and as you are paying the defense attorney hourly to defend you, you're just adding hours onto your bill that could be avoided. The simplest thing to do would be to carry the same pistol and ammunition that local law-enforcement carries then your attorney can defend you off of their coattails i.e. if this ammunition and pistoles good enough for law enforcement it should be good enough for my client. we all know law-enforcement extensively researches equipment before they buy it ymmv
 
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Anytime you deviate from the stock configuration you potentially open a door for a attorney to attack. even with this door open if the modifications you made are sensible you can actually show that they made the pistol safer by making it easier to accurately shoot so that you are less likely to miss endangering innocent bystanders.
Just remember anytime you give the prosecutor a window he will take it and as you are paying the defense attorney hourly to defend you, you're just adding hours onto your bill that could be avoided. The simplest thing to do would be to carry the same pistol and ammunition that local law-enforcement carries then your attorney can defend you off of their coattails i.e. if this ammunition and pistoles good enough for law enforcement it should be good enough for my client. we all know law-enforcement extensively researches equipment before they buy it ymmv
[citation needed]
 
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not this shit again.

next on the agenda:

1. cop killer boolits, what are they and how do they work?
2. is an uncle mike's holster really sufficient?
3. how to quickly draw from a SERPA holster.
4. the man, the myth... tex grebner.
5. massad ayoob worship break.
6. "on killing", a book club discussion. how reading a book will make you an expert on the internet.

did i miss anything?
Netflix binging How to Make a Murderer?
 
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Anytime you deviate from the stock configuration you potentially open a door for a attorney to attack. even with this door open if the modifications you made are sensible you can actually show that they made the pistol safer by making it easier to accurately shoot so that you are less likely to miss endangering innocent bystanders.
Just remember anytime you give the prosecutor a window he will take it and as you are paying the defense attorney hourly to defend you, you're just adding hours onto your bill that could be avoided. The simplest thing to do would be to carry the same pistol and ammunition that local law-enforcement carries then your attorney can defend you off of their coattails i.e. if this ammunition and pistoles good enough for law enforcement it should be good enough for my client. we all know law-enforcement extensively researches equipment before they buy it ymmv
Actually, based on your logic, the safest thing to do is create a special room in your house and have someone brick and mortar you in it.

Just because some ******* thinks it's a valid argument, by reacting/responding to it in any way but to call it stupidity, you're giving it credence. Stop propagating stupidity.
 
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Anything at all CAN be used by a lawyer as evidence if he/she is so inclined. For that reason, I wouldn't carry a modified gun. That's my personal philosophy, not advice for anyone else.

IIRC Massad Ayoob actually has written about court proofing your trigger and making it heavier than stock (can't find a link).
 
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IIRC Massad Ayoob actually has written about [STRIKE=court proofing your trigger and making it heavier than stock]court proofing your trigger and making it heavier than stock[/STRIKE] (can't find a link).
"doing something completely mind-numbingly retarded" i think you meant in there.

ok so now i'm a lawyer. here's how it goes:

"as you can see from the results of the trigger pull test you can see that the defendant deliberately increased the amount of pressure required to press the trigger and discharge the firearm. what does this tell you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury? that the defendant was 100% sure that he did not only want to wound the bright young man in the process of attempting to turn his life around, but that he wanted to kill him. he was sure about pressing that trigger and sure he wanted this young man to die! the prosecution rests."

see how retarded this arguing hypothetical court shit is?
 

rivet_42

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A lot of people in this thread are slagging Massad Ayoob for supposedly being the source of this "don't use a modified handgun as a carry gun" idea. I remember reading comments like this from him a long time ago, in the early '90s. This was before the huge wave of shall-issue concealed-carry laws and before there was a whole lot of history of successful legal claims of self-defense in shootings by lawful concealed-carriers. If there wasn't much evidence to go on, then this theory might hold water as either ordinary prudence or Massprudence. There have certainly always been people who have tried to get Murder 2 down to Manslaughter or Negligent Homicide by claiming the gun "just went off" without their intention, to varying degrees of success, and perhaps that's what contributes to this urban legend.

But I think the practical record shows that the worries over this are unfounded; self-defense cases that are prosecuted because the prosecution thinks they're not legitimate self defense. The prosecution typically focuses on the exact circumstances of the shooting and whether deadly force was warranted, rather than the nature of the firearm used.
 
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...because the first thing you tell the cops when you ventilate someone, is "Check out this trigger job I had done on my G19!"

Make sure you don't cerakote it any tactical colors either... Because extra killy.

This thread is perplexing. That it exists.
 

drgrant

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Anytime you deviate from the stock configuration you potentially open a door for a attorney to attack. even with this door open if the modifications you made are sensible you can actually show that they made the pistol safer by making it easier to accurately shoot so that you are less likely to miss endangering innocent bystanders.
Just remember anytime you give the prosecutor a window he will take it and as you are paying the defense attorney hourly to defend you, you're just adding hours onto your bill that could be avoided. The simplest thing to do would be to carry the same pistol and ammunition that local law-enforcement carries then your attorney can defend you off of their coattails i.e. if this ammunition and pistoles good enough for law enforcement it should be good enough for my client. we all know law-enforcement extensively researches equipment before they buy it ymmv


 
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