Using gun in self defense in MA question?

[45collector]

This thread is depressing.

It totally is, but you have to admit that once you really start to learn how things are in this state, you're better equipped to make decisions and deal with the outcome if you were to find yourself in such a situation. The state government has made it pretty clear to us that they expect us to just cower in the corner of the closet and die before ever daring to open fire on an assailant. I want out of MA, but I can't bring myself to leave my home just yet. So I'm f*cked for the time being.

 

[TOM1960]

With that I understand, but still doesn't answer the question. I think they should also be held accountable for their actions.

Better yet, what if the LEO is not home, his wife however grabs for their shotgun and takes the perp down... Now what?

Happened in NYC. Cop husband was shot while the couple was dining at a restaurant. Cop hubby tried to stop robbery. Wife grabbed hubby's gun and shot the perp. She was not charged, even though she possessed and used a handgun that was not registered to her in NYC and that she did not have a NYC license to possess or carry. Cops take care of their own. If your unlicensed wife (or, in my case my unlicensed girlfriend) grabbed one of our guns and shot the perp down, we would be shelling out big $$$ to defend our women against unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition charges. Additionally, we would be defending ourselves against unlawful gun storage charges. It is a double standard. Only a few years until I move to Alabama. Really can't wait at this point.

 

[TOM1960]

Yes everyone should be held accountable for their actions. No one should even have to worry about facing charges/ confiscation for shooting someone that has broken into their home, be it LEO or not.

In the wife scenario, if you're assuming that she is not licensed at all, and is the only one home, technically she has committed a crime. But since she's the wife of a cop, she will most likely be given a little more slack when it comes to possible charges being brought on her, if indeed it was a perfectly justified shoot.

Not that it's exactly related to the discussion, but remember what happened to that MSP trooper when his son got a hold of his unsecured handgun, went next door to the neighbor's house, pointed the gun at someone and pulled the trigger? Yeah, nothing happened to that trooper. Now thank God that gun was unloaded, but if that were to happen to any other average mug, there would be charges. Lots of them.

Charges were dropped. Trooper got to keep his job and his $100K base salary. Nice, eh?

 

[Malleg85]

Well so you shoot back in self defense, you have a LTC beautiful record no issues what so ever, call police and all the right things. Doesn't that count as something good on your end? Also most likely the best way through a situation. Those saying to just leave must be out of their minds, no offense. I know this might be a dumb question but why even bother carrying if there are so many twists and turns to the outcome? Go easy on me I'm a complete noob and just getting in to the gun scene.

 

[45collector]

Charges were dropped. Trooper got to keep his job and his $100K base salary. Nice, eh?

Yeah nice for him. Now what if that same exact thing happened to you? Do you think the court would look at it and say, "Well we let that trooper in Sandwich off the hook for the same scenario, so since we've established a precedence, I guess we have to let you walk without even so much as a slap on the wrist as well don't we?" Not.

 

[45collector]

Well so you shoot back in self defense, you have a LTC beautiful record no issues what so ever, call police and all the right things. Doesn't that count as something good on your end? Also most likely the best way through a situation. Those saying to just leave must be out of their minds, no offense. I know this might be a dumb question but why even bother carrying if there are so many twists and turns to the outcome? Go easy on me I'm a complete noob and just getting in to the gun scene.

You do what you have to do and proceed the best you can after the fact. "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried out by 6."

 

[Rider]

Well so you shoot back in self defense, you have a LTC beautiful record no issues what so ever, call police and all the right things. Doesn't that count as something good on your end? Also most likely the best way through a situation. Those saying to just leave must be out of their minds, no offense. I know this might be a dumb question but why even bother carrying if there are so many twists and turns to the outcome? Go easy on me I'm a complete noob and just getting in to the gun scene.

Go back to page one.

But seriously, you carry anyway because you'd rather go to jail than bury your wife and kids. And because it's your right. For now.

 

[TOM1960]

Well so you shoot back in self defense, you have a LTC beautiful record no issues what so ever, call police and all the right things. Doesn't that count as something good on your end? Also most likely the best way through a situation. Those saying to just leave must be out of their minds, no offense. I know this might be a dumb question but why even bother carrying if there are so many twists and turns to the outcome? Go easy on me I'm a complete noob and just getting in to the gun scene.

Your local chief will likely revoke your LTC on the spot and send his goons to collect all of your guns, ammo, reloading components and accessories. Another reason to store most of your collection, especially the valuable pieces, out of state. Also, the less this Communistic state knows about you, the better. I have owned and used guns for well over thirty years and not one has been registered in this state. If there was any doubt, now you know my reasons for not doing so. Remember one thing: COPS ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS! They look out for each other and their own loved ones. They do not give two s**ts about the average person, who they sarcastically refer to as "civilians". That is the mentality in this state. It is firmly entrenched and not likely to get routed any time soon.

 

[45collector]

In all fairness, they're not all like that.

 

[CTpatriot]

I know I'm going to bring down pillars of flame for asking this, but; If it's a clean shoot, and no law has been broken, are you legally obligated to notify the police?

i figure you dont, if a tree falls in the woods and you did nothing wrong, you shouldnt have to notify the forestry service or park ranger, same with the shoot, unless its in your house then you need to get rid of the body, but there may be some solution for that like a biomedical waste disposal service.

 

[CTpatriot]

What would happen if your buddy with an LTC clears out your forbidden closet of mystery of it's contents before the coppers show up?

what if you buddy is a firearms trust, would that help you in this situation? wife can be a bene on the trust too.

 

[TOM1960]

In all fairness, they're not all like that.

Most are. They are political appointees who serve at the pleasure of the Mayor or Board of Selectmen, depending upon the town or city. They are lapdogs who lick their master's feet. If you are in an especially anti-gun city or town (Boston. Lawrence, Lowell, Worcester, etc.), your LTC will grow wings and disappear very quickly. Don't kid yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

what if you buddy is a firearms trust, would that help you in this situation? wife can be a bene on the trust too.

The only real defense is to get the guns out of state, especially the valuable ones. Keep a few "beaters" at home for target, hunting and home defense. The rest? Across the border, ASAP.

 

[45collector]

I'm not kidding anything. You are painting with a very broad brush. I'll give you that yes, the majority probably are. But that doesn't mean there aren't plenty who have honor, compassion and the mindset that their job is to protect us "civilians". Sadly though, most of their work involves arriving at the scene after some crime has already been committed and someone's life is over.

 

[CTpatriot]

Some years back (~10?), a woman in Arlington was home during the day when she heard someone on her enclosed porch. She opened her front door to find out what was going on. The man, who was drunk and "known to police", advanced towards her. She told him to leave. He kept advancing. She pointed her gun at him and told him to leave. He laughed at her and kept advancing. She then fired one shot, hitting him in the neck. He suddenly realized that he had an urgent appointment elsewhere.

The perp was quickly caught and, unfortunately, survived. The woman's LTC was suspended and her firearms confiscated. After about six months, the DA decided not to press charges against her. At that point, the chief was going to revoke her LTC, but her lawyer was able to convince him not to.

I heard all of this firsthand from an attorney involved in the case some years after it was all over.

they should ahve taken the guns, gold plated them and engraved "top shot" on them.

 

[CTpatriot]

Decades ago, two Lawrence businessmen were forced to shoot and kill assailants who entered their premises and attacked them. One was an automobile radiator repair shop. I knew both the felon assailant (went to school with him when he was just starting to get weird!) and the son of the man who was in the unfortunate position of having to fire in self-defense (also a fellow student). He was sued, his wife left him and went back to Canada, he lost his house, his business and his life savings.

The second incident involved a guy I knew who ran a neighborhood convenience store. One hot July day, a man dressed in a trenchcoat entered the store and Benny asked him if he needed anything. The guy said nothing, drew a 12" chef's knife and charged Benny. Just as the guy was about to run Benny through, he grabbed his gun and fired, killing the assailant (who was recently released from Danvers State Hospital after attacking his own mother with a knife). Benny was sued by the dead man's family. He lost his store, his house and his life savings. His wife re-connected with an old high school boyfriend and ran off with him. Last time I saw Benny, he was behind the cash register at a business owned by his cousins, most likely making crap for a salary. Two justified shootings, two felons dead, two businessmen with ruined lives.

house in a trust, guns in a trust, go sue me for my used underwear. no lawyer will sue me unless he wants 33% of my underwear.

 

[CTpatriot]

Happened in NYC. Cop husband was shot while the couple was dining at a restaurant. Cop hubby tried to stop robbery. Wife grabbed hubby's gun and shot the perp. She was not charged, even though she possessed and used a handgun that was not registered to her in NYC and that she did not have a NYC license to possess or carry. Cops take care of their own. If your unlicensed wife (or, in my case my unlicensed girlfriend) grabbed one of our guns and shot the perp down, we would be shelling out big $$$ to defend our women against unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition charges. Additionally, we would be defending ourselves against unlawful gun storage charges. It is a double standard. Only a few years until I move to Alabama. Really can't wait at this point.

the wife did not break any law if it was in self defense or of others.

 

[protect02476]

So, if we justifiably shoot/kill someone, its figuratively a murder/suicide scenario......anyone else want to move?

 

[CBL]

Depressing thread.

Is CT as moonbatty about self help like MA is? I remember a news story last year about some kid who was innocently walking home from work, was jumped by 2 other kids, used his Swiss army knife to defend himself and ended up killing one and severely injurying the other. He ran away from the scene of the crime and never called 911 to report because he was scared of going to jail, until police tracked him down. They took him into custody, He came clean/story checked out w/ evidence and the DA never pressed charges and the kid was let off the hook.

Granted he used the knife but figured not reporting it was a big No no.

 

[CTpatriot]

Depressing thread.

Is CT as moonbatty about self help like MA is? I remember a news story last year about some kid who was innocently walking home from work, was jumped by 2 other kids, used his Swiss army knife to defend himself and ended up killing one and severely injurying the other. He ran away from the scene of the crime and never called 911 to report because he was scared of going to jail, until police tracked him down. They took him into custody, He came clean/story checked out w/ evidence and the DA never pressed charges and the kid was let off the hook.

Granted he used the knife but figured not reporting it was a big No no.

most cops i talked to are pro self defense, no difficulty getting permit, but if you shoot someone the cops will be directed by the chief and later the DA, so its the "luck of the draw" so to speak. make sure that the recipient of your free lead gets to the chest and one to the head before he falls down.

 

[Rider]

Things were so much clearer back when you were just supposed to let the bad guy rape and kill you.

 

[DBLOCK020]

That was my question many pages back. Everything I have said since then is under the assumption that there is no law specifically requiring you to report a lawful act of self defense. If there is such a law, then clearly that is the logical course of action following a SD shoot.

There is no law against OC either but go ahead and do it and see what happens.

 

[Len-2A Training]

now i know if the police are going to confiscate the weapons that are in your name.... but what if say your wife has an LTC A and there are guns registered in her name. Would they take them also? What if the guns are registered to an NFA trust where you are the trustee. would they still take them where they technically are not registered to you?

They will confiscate EVERYTHING, for the umpteenth time . . . they don't care who owns what, it all goes . . . see Jarvis v. Village Vault and read the case to understand how this goes.

Don't compare what happens to LEO after a shoot (whether it's a good one or dirty one) with what happens to you or me.

Very true.

Happened in NYC. Cop husband was shot while the couple was dining at a restaurant. Cop hubby tried to stop robbery. Wife grabbed hubby's gun and shot the perp. She was not charged, even though she possessed and used a handgun that was not registered to her in NYC and that she did not have a NYC license to possess or carry. Cops take care of their own. If your unlicensed wife (or, in my case my unlicensed girlfriend) grabbed one of our guns and shot the perp down, we would be shelling out big $$$ to defend our women against unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition charges. Additionally, we would be defending ourselves against unlawful gun storage charges. It is a double standard. Only a few years until I move to Alabama. Really can't wait at this point.

There is protection from prosecution for someone who defends the life of a LEO who is in jeopardy (was shot in this case). So nobody would be prosecuted even in NYC for a case like this. Also true that LEOs look out for their own and not everyone is treated equally.

-------------------------

Back to the topic before we got sidelined.


- Justifiable SD shooting will NOT be investigated by the local PD (exception for Boston and a few major cities with Homicide Divisions), but MA State Police assigned to the DA's office! These guys are NOT anyone's friends! Running away WILL result in a conviction, whereas calling 911 most likely will not result in a conviction if you have a top-notch attorney.

- Much of what was referred to in this thread before is about the CIVIL SUIT, where you will lose even if you win the criminal case. Problem is that MA has no law that prohibits such suits where person was deemed to have acted in legitimate self-defense. Honestly there are few states with this level of protection in their laws. Blame this NOT on the police, but on the lawyers (who also write the laws).

 

[invaliduser]

Hmm Time to load up with less lethal ammunition. Beanbags for shotguns and whatever the equivalent for handguns

 

[Volt]

"It's better to be judged by 12 than carried out by 6."

This just made me feel better about this thread.

In all honesty, the rules / laws / regulations need to be adjusted / changed / fixed / replaced in MA. That's really what needs to be done. Lets hope that GOAL, Comm2A, NRA, etc are actively making progress to fix this messed up state. This has been my home since I was born. All of my family is here and I don't plan on going anywhere.

 

[Neuro]

so , for self defense, its better to be the only guy testifying at the end of the day?

 

[Rider]

This just made me feel better about this thread.

In all honesty, the rules / laws / regulations need to be adjusted / changed / fixed / replaced in MA. That's really what needs to be done. Lets hope that GOAL, Comm2A, NRA, etc are actively making progress to fix this messed up state. This has been my home since I was born. All of my family is here and I don't plan on going anywhere.

Then you'd better get involved. GOAL and Comm2A are fighting the good fight, but they need money and involved citizens. Call and write your legislators, attend hearings, and spread the word with people you know.

If you want to enjoy your second amendment rights, and see things change here in MA, you'll have to fight for them, because I can tell you with certainty, very few legislators Are interested in either reforming our gun laws or rewriting criminal statutes to protect people who defend themselves with firearms.

They are too busy fighting over how much to raise taxes to be concerned with your rights.

 

[srv1761]

I remember hearing at the LTC class I attended years ago...the instructor made a statement that has stayed with. " DO YOUR BEST TO NEVER SHOOT A PERP IN THE BACK. IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO PROVE SELF DEFENSE WHEN IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THE PERP WAS FLEEING"

Also IMHO: Every CCW individual should read and own the Cncealed Carry Digest Book by Mas Ayoob. GET IT!! AND READ IT OFTEN.

 

[TOM1960]

the wife did not break any law if it was in self defense or of others.

In NYC, you cannot legally even TOUCH a gun if it is not registered in your name and does not appear on your NYC permit. If she touched it, she was in illegal possession of it. She was not charged because she was the wife of a NYPD cop. Anybody else would have been treated to an extended stay on Rikers Island.

 

[mikem317]

I don't get much time to listen to Jack Spirko's podcast, but the one with Mas Ayoob caught my attention. My suggestion is to listen to this podcast three or four times.

Massad Ayoob on Lethal Force Aftermath | The Survival Podcast

 

[JNewell]

Hmm Time to load up with less lethal ammunition. Beanbags for shotguns and whatever the equivalent for handguns

There are two issues with that plan that you should consider. First, just producing the weapon, even if it's empty, needs to have lethal force justification - the same standard required to shoot the person(s) attacking you. Second, as your post indicates, those rounds are only less lethal - remember Victoria Snelgrove. That was probably bad training, but it could just as well have been bad luck.