Using gun in self defense in MA question?

Terminator03

Terminator03

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I was just wondering about this scenario, so hopefully some LEOs, or people like LenS that are familiar with the process here in MA can shed some light. Say you are in a situation requiring you to draw and shoot. Let's assume for this discussion that it is a clean, clear self-defense situation where the BG pulled a gun on you to rob, carjack, etc. I have read in the past that the police will usually arrest you on the spot, until they sort everything out, and obviously confiscate the gun you used, but it is the next part that I have never seen discussed. Do they automatically pull your LTC, and confiscate ALL of the rest of your collection, ammo, mags, etc? If that is the case, are you given the opportunity to transfer them to an FFL, or someone else, or do they just immediately roll up to your house and take everything?
 
I don't imagine they take anything but the used firearm (as evidence) and whatever is on your person, and then you'll be arrested while it's sorted out, I can imagine if it was a clean case you'd sit in holding, talk to detectives, go through the process, maybe deal with the whole "good cop, bad cop" thing, but hopefully it would be over quickly as soon as it's ruled a clean shoot. They will probably hold that firearm in evidence for awhile and then you'll eventually get it back. In order to take your things you'd have to appear in court as anyone else would when facing to lose their LTC. I could be 100% percent wrong but this is my take on the situation. It's really a case to case basis I suppose, where, when, arrested officers, etc.
 
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^ This should be a given. Innocent or guilty always lawyer up before saying anything to anyone.
The second most important thing (that comes first) should be how you handle the 9/11 call. This can make or break the officers perception of you.
 
Considering that in MA, they don't need any reason at all to pull your LTC, I'm going to guess that it's up to your hometown PD whether or not you keep your LTC and guns, ammo, etc after a self-defense shooting. If you are under arrest or subject to an arrest warrant, you're a PP during that time, in which case you would lose your LTC on the spot, and possibly (depending on your hometown) have it re-issued when they determine that it was a good shoot.
 
I wouldn't count on keeping your guns, ammo or mags short term if you are involved in a shoot. If the first call is to your lawyer, consider having the second be to a trusted family /friend who can get your stuff over to an FFL. There are an awful lot of posts here about the costs of storage after 'temporary' confiscation exceeding the costs of the collection...which means you will lose all of them. I would count on very close scrutiny of your pre-ban mags, and the amount of ammunition you store while they search for anything else they can.

Most important rule. Lawyer up. Also, keep in mind that the 911 call will almost certainly be played back in any proceeding, so speak like you're talking to a jury, with a prosecuting attorney trying to twist any word or inflection of anything you say.
 
Search - there are several threads on what should be said when reporting a defensive shooting

Once the police show up, your LTC will be pulled and everything taken (probably right down to your cleaning patches)

"Officer, I don't feel well and am having tightness in my chest with difficulty breathing, I think I need medical assistance" - Not a lie because you will be experiencing this in a defensive situation.

After that: "____________________________" (the sound of silence)
 
Assume, guilty or not, you will lose everything. You will probably be sued civilly and criminally charged. Your life will change.

Ironically, I suppose if you don't shoot, your life will change as well, from living to dead.
 
I don't think it would be automatic, as there are few shootings by LTC holders. But it wouldn't surprise me if it happened.
 
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This gets covered in depth in the NRA Personal Protection in the Home and Outside the Home courses that I teach. To a lesser degree we go over this in my MA Gun Law seminar as well.

Hellbound said:
I don't imagine they take anything but the used firearm (as evidence) and whatever is on your person, and then you'll be arrested while it's sorted out, I can imagine if it was a clean case you'd sit in holding, talk to detectives, go through the process, maybe deal with the whole "good cop, bad cop" thing, but hopefully it would be over quickly as soon as it's ruled a clean shoot. They will probably hold that firearm in evidence for awhile and then you'll eventually get it back. In order to take your things you'd have to appear in court as anyone else would when facing to lose their LTC. I could be 100% percent wrong but this is my take on the situation. It's really a case to case basis I suppose, where, when, arrested officers, etc.
Click to expand...

For MA, you are wrong, very wrong.


pastera said:
Search - there are several threads on what should be said when reporting a defensive shooting

Once the police show up, your LTC will be pulled and everything taken (probably right down to your cleaning patches)

"Officer, I don't feel well and am having tightness in my chest with difficulty breathing, I think I need medical assistance" - Not a lie because you will be experiencing this in a defensive situation.

After that: "____________________________" (the sound of silence)
Click to expand...

This is 100% correct.

Do some reading on Langone's shooting of the wacko who was murdering the doctor at MGH. SIX MONTHS in limbo, couldn't work, etc. and that was as clean cut a case as you are likely to find anywhere in MA.

What is on your person is evidence and maintained by PD. Everything else may be shipped to a Bonded Warehouse (you'll never see it again), FFL (if you are extremely lucky) or kept at the PD (giving you opportunity to transfer/sell everything). It's all up to the PD but my research says that you'll lose everything instantly.
 
Terminator03 said:
I was just wondering about this scenario, so hopefully some LEOs, or people like LenS that are familiar with the process here in MA can shed some light. Say you are in a situation requiring you to draw and shoot. Let's assume for this discussion that it is a clean, clear self-defense situation where the BG pulled a gun on you to rob, carjack, etc. I have read in the past that the police will usually arrest you on the spot, until they sort everything out, and obviously confiscate the gun you used, but it is the next part that I have never seen discussed. Do they automatically pull your LTC, and confiscate ALL of the rest of your collection, ammo, mags, etc? If that is the case, are you given the opportunity to transfer them to an FFL, or someone else, or do they just immediately roll up to your house and take everything?
Click to expand...
You may wish to get a FID along with your LTC. You may not wish to keep all of your eggs in one basket, if you know what I mean. An inexpensive defensive 12-gauge pump shotgun should be your HD weapon. One pistol should be kept at home. If you own anything valuable (ie: Grandpa's WWII Luger, Walther P38, 98K Mauser, etc.), keep them out of state. That way, if the Gestapo pigs come to confiscate your stuff, they will walk away with relatively inexpensive guns that you can afford to replace. In the meantime, you can bring your FID guns back from out-of-state to keep in your home while the details are being sorted out.
 
TOM1960 said:
You may wish to get a FID along with your LTC. You may not wish to keep all of your eggs in one basket, if you know what I mean. An inexpensive defensive 12-gauge pump shotgun should be your HD weapon. One pistol should be kept at home. If you own anything valuable (ie: Grandpa's WWII Luger, Walther P38, 98K Mauser, etc.), keep them out of state. That way, if the Gestapo pigs come to confiscate your stuff, they will walk away with relatively inexpensive guns that you can afford to replace. In the meantime, you can bring your FID guns back from out-of-state to keep in your home while the details are being sorted out.
Click to expand...

How would you go about getting your FID while having a LTC already?
 
TOM1960 said:
You may wish to get a FID along with your LTC. You may not wish to keep all of your eggs in one basket, if you know what I mean. An inexpensive defensive 12-gauge pump shotgun should be your HD weapon. One pistol should be kept at home. If you own anything valuable (ie: Grandpa's WWII Luger, Walther P38, 98K Mauser, etc.), keep them out of state. That way, if the Gestapo pigs come to confiscate your stuff, they will walk away with relatively inexpensive guns that you can afford to replace. In the meantime, you can bring your FID guns back from out-of-state to keep in your home while the details are being sorted out.
Click to expand...

Won't work.
 
So Len, what's the deal here? Are you saying if it's a clear cut case of self defense, (e.g. whack job breaks in, you legally defend yourself, and no criminal charges are every filed against you), that your LTC is yanked and all your firearms are confiscated? Or, are you speaking under the premise that charges have been filed, and hence in the meantime, all your rights are taken away?
 
What if your wife is an LTC holder as well. Do they still have the right to show up at your door and take the rest of your guns?
 
M1911 said:
If they come for your LTC, they will take your FID as well.
Click to expand...
Don't keep both in same wallet and keep most of the gun collection, especially the valuable ones, out of state. Unless you are criminally charged, you will keep the FID. LTC can be taken for any reason, even for justifiable self-defense. Happened to a guy in Methuen a couple of years ago when he shot a neighbor's pit bull after the thing bit him. Methuen PD took his LTC, his pistol and a hunting rifle that had nothing to do with the incident "for safekeeping" during the investigation. If he had an FID, he would legally have been able to retain the hunting rifle. He was not criminally charged. It was simply a so-called "investigation".

- - - Updated - - -

LenS said:
Won't work.
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Hard to confiscate guns that are out of state. That is why I only keep two at home: Remington 870 and Ruger Mini-14. The rest are kept beyond the reach of the People's Republik of Taxachusetts. Both FID legal.
 
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MrJones79 said:
So Len, what's the deal here? Are you saying if it's a clear cut case of self defense, (e.g. whack job breaks in, you legally defend yourself, and no criminal charges are every filed against you), that your LTC is yanked and all your firearms are confiscated? Or, are you speaking under the premise that charges have been filed, and hence in the meantime, all your rights are taken away?
Click to expand...

Regardless of whether charges are filed or not, they have a tendency to take everything.


bdb said:
What if your wife is an LTC holder as well. Do they still have the right to show up at your door and take the rest of your guns?
Click to expand...

We can argue rights, but they will do it anyway. Read Jarvis v. Village Vault on the www.comm2a.org website.


TOM1960 said:
Don't keep both in same wallet and keep most of the gun collection, especially the valuable ones, out of state. Unless you are criminally charged, you will keep the FID. LTC can be taken for any reason, even for justifiable self-defense. Happened to a guy in Methuen a couple of years ago when he shot a neighbor's pit bull after the thing bit him. Methuen PD took his LTC, his pistol and a hunting rifle that had nothing to do with the incident "for safekeeping" during the investigation. If he had an FID, he would legally have been able to retain the hunting rifle. He was not criminally charged. It was simply a so-called "investigation".

- - - Updated - - -

Hard to confiscate guns that are out of state. That is why I only keep two at home: Remington 870 and Ruger Mini-14. The rest are kept beyond the reach of the People's Republik of Taxachusetts. Both FID legal.
Click to expand...

You've already established that you do not abide by the MA laws and have no intention of doing so, therefore it's a waste of my time to explain the flaws in your "expert advice".

Suffice it to say that no matter where an FID or LTC is located or any guns for that matter, the PD will do as they please and your refusal to cooperate violates another law (felony) which they can easily convict even if the underlying issue is a no-bill. Good luck to you.
 
TOM1960 said:
Don't keep both in same wallet and keep most of the gun collection, especially the valuable ones, out of state. Unless you are criminally charged, you will keep the FID. LTC can be taken for any reason, even for justifiable self-defense. Happened to a guy in Methuen a couple of years ago when he shot a neighbor's pit bull after the thing bit him. Methuen PD took his LTC, his pistol and a hunting rifle that had nothing to do with the incident "for safekeeping" during the investigation. If he had an FID, he would legally have been able to retain the hunting rifle. He was not criminally charged. It was simply a so-called "investigation".

- - - Updated - - -

Hard to confiscate guns that are out of state. That is why I only keep two at home: Remington 870 and Ruger Mini-14. The rest are kept beyond the reach of the People's Republik of Taxachusetts. Both FID legal.
Click to expand...

The problem is you will need to FA-10 those guns you bring in - when those show up so will the police to take them
If you don't FA-10, then you are a criminal
 
When it comes to self defence cases, especially here in MA, nothing is black and white. If you use your firearm in self defence nothing but bad things will happen.

1. You might die
2. You might end up in jail
3. You may become disabled for the remainder of your life
4. You will be sued
5. You will need to live everyday after knowing you took another humans life

So why do I bother carrying a gun on a daily basis? Its because the only time I would ever use it is if my life or a loved ones life is about to be taken and I had no other means to stop that from happening. We as gun owners need to hold ourselves to a higher standard and act in such a manor in our daily lives to avoid conflict and prevent having to use that firearm.

This Sunday we will be holding a Use of Force class in North Attleboro. We will cover this topic in depth. If your a Green member put your user name in the comment section when registering and we will give you 10% off as well.

Use of Force and Home Defense - Tactical Dynamics Firearms Training

Tactical Dynamics
855-276-5730
[email protected]
Tactical Dynamics Firearms Training - Mindset. Accuracy. Consistency
 
Wow, this really took off while I was offline. Most posts seem to indicate what I was suspecting. This is just one in the million reasons why I need to sell my house and get out of this crap hole state. I know someone suggested keeping most of your guns out of state, but that is not practical for most people unless they happen to own real estate in a gun friendly state or have close relatives willing to let you store your collection with them. Then there is the question of "why" would you keep your stuff out of state? If you don't have access to them, and can't use them, what is the point in keeping them at all?

Wrt also having FID, does anyone on here have both? If so, did you get the FID after having an LTC? Just trying to determine if it is actually worthwhile to get the FID at this point.
 
M1911 said:
It isn't.
Click to expand...

That was my initial feeling, but can you expand a bit on your reasoning? In my mind, it seems like you would just be giving more money to the state for another redundant permit, and I say "redundant" because it seems like they would automatically suspend both if they felt they had cause to suspend one - correct? If it were the case where they would say "Oh, he is too dangerous to carry a handgun, but we can let him have all of his shotguns and rifles", then I would think it would be worthwhile, but I can't see that happening here in MA.
 
pastera said:
The problem is you will need to FA-10 those guns you bring in - when those show up so will the police to take them
If you don't FA-10, then you are a criminal
Click to expand...
Wouldn't even know what a FA-10 looks like. I asked a local cop that I know if he ever saw one. He thought that I was kidding and asked in return "what the hell is that?". He is a gun owner, like myself, and we are around the same age. If what you are saying is true, then we are both criminals since he buys his guns out of state as well. Maybe the cops and bureaucrats don't obey their own laws but the rest of us are supposed to? Double standard and I made it quite clear what I think of double standards.
 
newenglandjeff said:
I know I'm going to bring down pillars of flame for asking this, but; If it's a clean shoot, and no law has been broken, are you legally obligated to notify the police?
Click to expand...

I don't even know how to comment on this other than, "you" wouldn't need to. Most likely someone else would and say that they just saw some man with a gun shoot someone, or they might even capture it on camera since you are on camera these days just about every waking moment outside of your home. You aren't seriously asking if you could just shoot someone, holster your gun and go on your merry way like the wild west, are you?
 

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