Universal Health Care and Gun Control

[JOSH1012]

1. You cannot lump in Military healthcare into this problem - this is a very special case where we are asking people to put their life and health on the line to defend our nation. As part of their compensation we do (and should) promise to bear the cost of their healthcare. Compare military salaries to private sector security work. Im not lumping the Job they are doing but how their healthcare is set-up

2. Military is also a bad example because they have a fitness requirement to get in. Creates a disproportionally "healthy" insurance pool Eh not true Ive seen some Salty old Boatswains Mates with a 4 pack a day Habit and a beer gut to Match

3. Of course people already getting a government entitlement want to keep it. That doesn't change the fact that it is broken and we cannot afford it. (agreed)

We already going to go broke trying to fund Medicare even if costs did not rise one penny from today.

The bottom line is that socialist programs fail because decisions on "who gets what" and "how much should this cost" get shifted from the market to the desk of a regulator.

Even a well intentioned regulator (which don't exist) simply cannot keep up with the economics of this process. Not to mention that political corruption invariably skews this further.

This failed in Russia, is failing in China, failed in Cuba, is failing in Venezuela, failed in Cambodia, failed in Germany (one of originators of the socialist nanny state in the late 1800's)... Why do you continue to ignore the murderous lessons of those nations and insist that a socialist program can work? Look at the leaders of Mentioned Countries their is your answer ... Look at the population (uneducated, Poor, 3rd World living conditions (exception of Germany)

You cite examples that supposedly are working, but I counter with the reality of these nations accumulating debt a. at a rate exceeding the united states in relative terms b. that is unsustainable.

If a system cannot be paid for in the long run - no matter how nice it may appear in the short term - it DOES NOT WORK. Don't tell it works for the first 10,20,30 years so we should do it - when it saddles my children with $12.5T in debt - that's what our grand parents did... Thanks guys!

Not saying it needs to be a freebie system .. It needs to be changed to reduce costs ..thats the bottomline .. I spend $10,000 a year to see a Dr every 6 months is that truly a fair pricing system.. oh and I dont smoke .. I dont drink and the wife said no to my 3rd motorcycle ???

 

[cekim]

The problem is if the govenrment runs healthcare, it will likely be a monopoly, with no opt-out in place.

I find it amazing that people, on balance, understand and believe in evolution. The "protected specieis" crowd buys into the value of biodiversity and well as cultural diversity for the sake of getting multiple view points.

We are all bought into the idea that "one way of thinking" isn't a good idea - we need multiple opinions and approaches.

Yet if the state setup DMV1 and DMV2 and pitted them against eachother to force competition - we'd cry "waste!"

Why do we except the abomination of nature here, but no where else? Our entire universe exists as the result of "selection". A whittling down of what doesn't work until you are left with "what does".

Not because of the brilliance of one politician in selecting which species should survive, but by process of elimination of what cannot work. Nature, Time, The Market, killing everything that it can, leaving only that which was strong enough to survive.

The same is true in business. It's not so much the brilliance of a few individuals that determines success it is the frequently discarded reality of MASSIVE failure in starting new business that normally ensures that those that survive are well run. Until government gets in the mix and decides who lives and who dies of course...

 

[abomb60]

It would be a stretch. Based on risk, they'd have to get beyond cars, motorcycles, etc, before they got to firearms... but that's little consolation.

Yup and cigarettes, booze, staying up too late, rabid squirrels, etc.

 

[cekim]

Not saying it needs to be a freebie system .. It needs to be changed to reduce costs ..thats the bottomline .. I spend $10,000 a year to see a Dr every 6 months is that truly a fair pricing system.. oh and I dont smoke .. I dont drink and the wife said no to my 3rd motorcycle ???

Fair? Life isn't fair - anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something

As I said, you can't really use the military system as an example as they have many aspects that are unique to that group of people - not the least of which is their requirement of health for entry which lowers costs of the median person substantially.

The level of education is not important to whether socialism works. At best, it only slows the timeline of failure as the residual self reliance in place prior to the socialist take over is worn away.

And nothing you've said addresses the accumulation of debt by Euronations you claim as "success stories".

Look at debt relative to GDP of EURO nations... Until our recent shift to socialism in the past 10-15 years, ours was MUCH lower... Now we are catching up, but they are still leading us down this path to destruction.

 

[FreeWillie]

No ones going to ban anything..... as long as you pay the TAX to do it. Smoking, drinking, ammo, guns, cars, motorcycles, gas.... it goes on and on. No one is going to stop or prohibit anything as long as you're willing to pay the TAX on it. It's about the money.

 

[ooglassoo]

Then they would have to ban cars, alcohol, cigarettes and anything else that people might get enjoyment out of...

Sorry didn't read any other post and just went into my one sentence rant before reading the others. And it looks like you guys were on the same page as me.

 

[Mark from MA]

No ones going to ban anything..... as long as you pay the TAX to do it. Smoking, drinking, ammo, guns, cars, motorcycles, gas.... it goes on and on. No one is going to stop or prohibit anything as long as you're willing to pay the TAX on it. It's about the money.

Exactly...it's pretty simple and all about socialistic control........ your goverment health insurance premium will be a lot less if you stay in your house and don't have a life or live like a salamander under a rock.

Should you decide to own a car, gun, hunt, fish, boat, skydive, fly, motorcycle, smoke, drink....etc....your government health insurance premium will skyrocket for every "risky" behavior you do..........and when government is the only game in town....they then control you by your wallet. Especially if you are fined for not having health insurance.....and there is no other option.

Oh....The fines in the beginning won't be bad...but once they get the program implemented and alll the private health insurance complanies go out of business. They will then ramp up the fines and premiums for "risky behavior."

Or they could just impose federal excise taxes on all these things so that anyone that buys them must pay extra in tax to of course cover the bloated spending that will go along with any health bill passed. Everyone knows it's estimated at 1 trillion, but will cost way more than that....so they'll get to invent new taxes and reasons to cover it.....which in the end people that work will still be paying high premiums........deadbeats and illegal alliens will be covered for free.

 

[calsdad]

And the costs in our system are under control? 100% increase in 5 years. We spend more per capita on healthcare than any other nation.

While some countries with universal health care have major issues (e.g., Canada, UK), others do not (Switzerland, France, Germany).

Switzerland also doesn't have a federal government that is out of control. Switzerland does not project military power beyond it's own borders - it minds it's own business. Switzerland has enough fallout shelters to cover EVERY person in the country. Switzerland has a military system that just about everybody participates in - and for the most part members who are considered active keep a full auto military rifle at home (with strict regulations about access to ammo).

If the US was more like Switzerland - I bet there would be a lot of people who would not mind a national health care system. Keep dreaming. We aren't there.

Switzerland also tries really hard to keep out immigrants, they have political parties that come right out and say that Muslims are not welcome. Switzerland is unabashedly for the SWISS. Which - just for the record - I have no problem with.

Nationalized healthcare in the US will work just as well as everything else the federal government gets it's hands on - which is to say it will resemble a big stinking turd.

 

[cekim]

No ones going to ban anything..... as long as you pay the TAX to do it. Smoking, drinking, ammo, guns, cars, motorcycles, gas.... it goes on and on. No one is going to stop or prohibit anything as long as you're willing to pay the TAX on it. It's about the money.

It's actually about the power. Money buys power, but if you can ban something and extract tax dollars from fear campaigns to "fight a war on X" whatever "X" might be, then at the point that you can get more building the regulatory/police empire than you can from use-tax revenue - then they ban it.

Drug bans started with taxation... Look where it is now...

 

[seanc]

Exactly...it's pretty simple and all about socialistic control........ your goverment health insurance premium will be a lot less if you stay in your house and don't have a life or live like a salamander under a rock.

Should you decide to own a car, gun, hunt, fish, boat, skydive, fly, motorcycle, smoke, drink....etc....your government health insurance premium will skyrocket for every "risky" behavior you do..........and when government is the only game in town....they then control you by your wallet. Especially if you are fined for not having health insurance.....and there is no other option.

Oh....The fines in the beginning won't be bad...but once they get the program implemented and alll the private health insurance complanies go out of business. They will then ramp up the fines and premiums for "risky behavior."

I don't see this happening.
What I see happening is that the gov will take over. MDs will leave in droves as there is no longer money or profit to be made as they have become defacto government employees.
The prospect of paying HUGE money to go through med school to be on par with a registry teller or an IRS pencil pusher will become unattractive very quickly. Couple this with a Gov approved "playbook" of approved procedures and it will be quite a bit less attractive to those considering a career. the quality of MDs and care will diminish.

Those MDs that are the best, will establish pay as you go private hospitals.
Private insurers will pop up to cover the costs of private hospitals. Eventually, we'll all still be paying a ton of money from our paychecks to the "free" medical care that not many will want to use, as well as paying for private insurance for our own medical needs.

The upside is that the "free" govt care will never go away, we'll all pay for it. The staff will go completely union and the costs will get more and more every year. As this is a govt operation it will never go away or be shut down.
Just like government education!!!