Unburned powder / Bad Primers ? ?

[BillO]

Loaded up some Moly coated 200 grain Lead Round Nose over 5.7 grains of Winchester 231. Power seemed to be all over the place with some seeming to be full power, others a weak "pop" with inadquate recoil to cycle my 1911A1. The weak casings seemed to have gritty, unburned powder. The powder came from a new, unopened one pound container of Winchester 231. Ideas ?

 

[drgrant]

Loaded up some Moly coated 200 grain Lead Round Nose over 5.7 grains of Winchester 231. Power seemed to be all over the place with some seeming to be full power, others a weak "pop" with inadquate recoil to cycle my 1911A1. The weak casings seemed to have gritty, unburned powder. The powder came from a new, unopened one pound container of Winchester 231. Ideas ?

Malfunctioning powder measure?

I almost had a hell of a catastrophe happen to me with my RCBS chargemaster when the main nut backed itself out because I didn't snug it tight. By the time I got to the end of the tray I had a charge that was like 2 grains higher
than the first case I charged! It was a good thing I noticed the difference. I dumped them all out back into the
measure, fixed the measure and charged them all again.

-Mike

 

[BillO]

Just checked it. Nope, all tight. I also double check the charge setting by first calibrating my Dillon electronic scale, then, just for giggles, recheck it on a standard RCBS balance beam scale.

 

[Scrivener]

How is your crimp?

Also, were the bullets seated uniformly?

Unburned powder indicates pressure was too low for full ignition.

 

[EddieCoyle]

It's a .45 ACP, the crimp doesn't matter. If the round will chamber, the crimp is sufficient. A taper crimp's effect on the bullet tension is negligible.

A roll crimp on a cannelured revolver bullet is very a different story.

 

[Scrivener]

It's a .45 ACP, the crimp doesn't matter. If the round will chamber, the crimp is sufficient. A taper crimp's effect on the bullet tension is negligible.

Even in a 1911, there needs to be sufficient time for the burn to build up enough pressure to use all the propellant. If the brass is old (or AMERC), there may be very little tension.

If the primer functioned sufficiently to ignite the charge, then we need to look later in the chain of events to figure out why he's getting erratic burns. Since he said the weak rounds were the ones leaving the unburned propellant, he's not overcharging. Under-weight charges are more likely to detonate and leave virtually no unburned grains.

So, I'm thinking there is little to no crimp. What else might cause the problem, given the symptoms?

 

[Patriot]

Even in a 1911, there needs to be sufficient time for the burn to build up enough pressure to use all the propellant. If the brass is old (or AMERC), there may be very little tension.

If the primer functioned sufficiently to ignite the charge, then we need to look later in the chain of events to figure out why he's getting erratic burns. Since he said the weak rounds were the ones leaving the unburned propellant, he's not overcharging. Under-weight charges are more likely to detonate and leave virtually no unburned grains.

So, I'm thinking there is little to no crimp. What else might cause the problem, given the symptoms?

I have a couple of theories about why this might be happening. I had a squib round this
past weekend with a .45AR round and it wasn't due to the absence of powder. I am
suspicioning that the cause of my squib this past weekend was due to either the crimp I
had on the .45AR or the bullets. (I use the same crimp on the 230gr LRN that I use on
my .45ACP and when I checked this in the reloading book it actually calls for a tighter
crimp on the .45AR.) The other issue is the bullet. The ones I am using are the Northeast
230gr LRN and they have a lot of lube on them. So much in fact that it is all over the
place, and I am suspicioning that a glob of excess lube prevented the case from getting a
good tight crimp on the bullet of the squib round. I am going to check the remaining
bullets to see if there is any issue with the lube and re-crimp the remaining rounds to the
tighter value before I shoot them, if I don't just pull them and start anew. That squib
was a royal PITA! When I load up any additional I am going to have to check the bullets
individually prior to using them and clear away any excess lube.

 

[Scrivener]

Another blessing of the poly-coated bullets - no wax and crap building up in the dies and affecting crimp.

They are slick, but I have not had any squib/variance issues with them and everything is much cleaner.

 

[EddieCoyle]

So, I'm thinking there is little to no crimp. What else might cause the problem, given the symptoms?

It isn't the "crimp". I put it in quotes because a taper crimp isn't a crimp, it's a bell removal.

Let me illustrate (I drew these at work in anticipation of your reply):

Here's an uncrimped round:

The top of the case is still belled away from the bullet. This round will likely not chamber. The bullet is held in place by the bearing surface of the case against the bullet.




Here's a properly crimped round:

Note that the top of the case is flat against the bullet, and the bullet is not deformed. Again, the bullet is held in place by the bearing surface of the case against the bullet. Any additional increase in "hold" provided by the crimp is minimal - it's whatever additional hold the roughly .020" of case that was previously belled away can provide. You can see that this additional bearing surface represents less than 10% of the bullet-to-case contact area. The relationship between friction and area is not linear, so this doesn't even add that much to the hold.



Here's an overcrimped round (drawn slightly exaggerated):

What has happened is that the overcrimp has deformed the bullet. Cartridge brass and lead have different moduli of elasticity. The lead's modulus of elasticity has been exceeded and it has been permanently deformed. In addition, the lead inside the jacket displaces up and down, taking the copper with it. The copper that has to bridge the "canyon" between the humps of displaced lead is also stretched enough during the crimp so that it exceeds its modulus of elasticity, and it "sets". Cartridge brass is intentionally "springy", otherwise we'd never be able to extract a case after it was fired (it expands to seal the chamber then contracts a bit to allow extraction). The modulus of elasticity for the brass has not been exceeded, and it springs back, leaving a gap between the case and the bullet at the top of the case. There is actually less hold than if you never crimped it. Note that you would not see this by looking at the round.


Here's a severely overcrimped round:

This is what happens when you severely overcrimp a round using one of those dies that will taper crimp at first but roll crimp when you crank it down (like a Lee seating die). In addition to the bullet deformation (and brass springback) noted above, the brass has bulged away from the base of the bullet, greatly reducing the "hold".

A Lee factory crimp die will correct this condition so that the cartridge will chamber, but the bullet deformation will remain, and you're still getting less hold than you would with a good crimp. The only way to get better hold on loose autoloader bullets is to use an undersized sizing die. I got one for R-P cases because they hold weakly.


As to the OP's problem: My guess would be that his powder got hot at some point in it's life and is partially spoiled.

 

[BillO]

Additional info

First of all, these are POLY, not Moly bullets. They are 200 grain, Poly coated, Lead Round Nose Flat Point. I checked again, and they are loaded with 5.7 grains of WIN 231, OAL 1.250.
The loaded rounds drop easily into a case gage, but after firing, are VERY dirty (see three left examples).

 

[Scrivener]

As to the OP's problem: My guess would be that his powder got hot at some point in it's life and is partially spoiled.

SUPER artwork!

However, if the powder was not properly stored, then the heat should have affected the entire container. One would, therefore, expect UNIFORMLY deficient results.

It is the erratic nature of the problem which I find difficult to attribute to one batch of powder, but which might occur if the reloads used mixed brass.

The bullets look just like those I use; I'm guessing they are from XXXXXXX or maybe XXXXXXXXXXX.

 

[EddieCoyle]

However, if the powder was not properly stored, then the heat should have affected the entire container. One would, therefore, expect UNIFORMLY deficient results.

Maybe, maybe not. I kept a bottle of powder on top of a dehumidifier in my basement (the top of which heated up when it ran). I think the powder near the bottom got "cooked", but the majority was OK. When I used it to load ammo, I had results similar to what BillO described. I'm not saying BillO cooked his powder, but who knows where it was kept before he got it.

 

[BillO]

These are XXXXXXXXX bullets, mixed brass. I thought it might be faulty primers, but maybe, since I'm new to Poly bullets, suspected I was missing a critical step using these type of bullets. I purchased this particular powder at the recent Wilmington Shriner's gun show. I have another unopened container of 231 that I picked up recently from Four Seasons. I store all my powder in a cool, dry place as recommended. I'll load up a batch and see what happens. Thanks all.

PS. Very informative artwork Jim.

 

[Scrivener]

I think we can all agree your bullets are NOT the cause of your problem.

You might try loading to the same weight with the NEW (FS) powder. If the problem goes away, the issue would seem to be with the gun show powder and Jim may very well be correct.


All my powder is in a closed area in the basement; very constant temperatures with only a very slow seasonal change.

 

[TY43215]

First of all, these are POLY, not Moly bullets. They are 200 grain, Poly coated, Lead Round Nose Flat Point. I checked again, and they are loaded with 5.7 grains of WIN 231, OAL 1.250.
The loaded rounds drop easily into a case gage, but after firing, are VERY dirty (see three left examples).

I can see in the photo you do not have the necesary crimp to allow complete burn of 231. Your brass also shows burn past the base of the bullet.

I really don't like 231 but I know others do. In revolvers, it is a very dirty powder and causes problems for me. I gave my 231 away.

 

[Uncle Ogre]

Maybe an improperly adjusted expander die? Excessive case expansion would lead to low bullet tension, which a taper crimp can't fix, though it might still smooth out the bell enough to chamber properly. Technically, a roll crimp wouldn't "fix" the overexpansion either, but you could apply enough crimp to compensate.

 

[BillO]

I seem to learn something new every day.

Looks like I have a container of bad powder. I tried the same load in 45 Auto Rim brass with similar results. Since I had a little time on my hands today, I also loaded a dozen 9mm's with the "bad" powder. They all fired well. I then loaded some 45AR and 45ACP's with the "Four Seasons" powder resulting in proper cycling and what I perceived as the same power. So, it seems that the Gun show powder isn't "quite right" even though the 9mm's fired as they should. I'm discarding the bad powder.

 

[Scrivener]

So, it seems that the Gun show powder isn't "quite right" even though the 9mm's fired as they should. I'm discarding the bad powder.

Sprinkle it (i.e., no accumulation) in your garden or on the lawn.

 

[jar]

Sprinkle it (i.e., no accumulation) in your garden or on the lawn.

Does this do something for your lawn or is it just a way to get rid of it?

 

[Scrivener]

Does this do something for your lawn or is it just a way to get rid of it?

Think it through.

What are propellants made of? NITROCELLULOSE.

If double-based, that is supplemented by a certain percentage of NITROGLYCERIN.

Note the common element: NITROGEN.

Now ask yourself: What is a major element in lawn and garden fertilizer?

Connected the dots yet?

 

[EddieCoyle]

Does this do something for your lawn or is it just a way to get rid of it?

It's nitrogen rich.

I prefer to store all my bad/swept up/leftover powder until the next bonfire, where I set it off Bugs Bunny style by putting a big pile somewhere and leaving a little trail/fuse to light. Alcohol is often involved, but it's good clean fun.

 

[Scrivener]

I prefer to store all my bad/swept up/leftover powder until the next bonfire, where I set it off Bugs Bunny style by putting a big pile somewhere and leaving a little trail/fuse to light. Alcohol is often involved, but it's good clean fun.

What, no Road Runner "Acme" skyrocket?

 

[EddieCoyle]

What, no Road Runner "Acme" skyrocket?

They won't ship to Mass.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I can see in the photo you do not have the necesary crimp to allow complete burn of 231.

Sigh...

Technically, a roll crimp wouldn't "fix" the overexpansion either, but you could apply enough crimp to compensate.

Not without a cannelure you can't.

If there's not a place for the brass to go (a cannelure) then the lead is ALWAYS going to deform more than the brass, and the brass is always going to spring back more than the lead, leaving a gap. The harder you crimp it, the worse it gets.

 

[drgrant]

I seem to learn something new every day.

Looks like I have a container of bad powder. I tried the same load in 45 Auto Rim brass with similar results. Since I had a little time on my hands today, I also loaded a dozen 9mm's with the "bad" powder. They all fired well. I then loaded some 45AR and 45ACP's with the "Four Seasons" powder resulting in proper cycling and what I perceived as the same power. So, it seems that the Gun show powder isn't "quite right" even though the 9mm's fired as they should. I'm discarding the bad powder.

When you bought this 231 did it have a seal on top or was it like a half full or mostly full container? It's also possible if it was used the previous owner could have contaminated the container by accident. (eg, dumping the wrong powder into the jar of 231...) that would certainly cause erratic results if there was enough contamination.

-Mike

 

[TY43215]

Sigh...



Not without a cannelure you can't.

If there's not a place for the brass to go (a cannelure) then the lead is ALWAYS going to deform more than the brass, and the brass is always going to spring back more than the lead, leaving a gap. The harder you crimp it, the worse it gets.

Sigh all you want, but I would wager those bullets can be removed by hand. There needs to be something to slow the bullet enough to allow the powder to burn. I would like to know what the case mouth caliper reading is on those rounds.

Out of this one because the bad powder solved the problem. On to other things.

 

[Uncle Ogre]

Technically, a roll crimp wouldn't "fix" the overexpansion either, but you could apply enough crimp to compensate.

Not without a cannelure you can't.

If there's not a place for the brass to go (a cannelure) then the lead is ALWAYS going to deform more than the brass, and the brass is always going to spring back more than the lead, leaving a gap. The harder you crimp it, the worse it gets.

I agree that it will leave a gap, but with an aggressively applied roll crimp isn't that gap inside the "cannelure" that you created when you deformed the bullet? I'm referring to this drawing, but with the case mouth rolled into the deformation.

I suspect that you can get the case mouth to a smaller diameter than the base of the bullet, which should impede the bullets travel enough to provide for proper ignition even though the case tension is less than it should be.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I suspect that you can get the case mouth to a smaller diameter than the base of the bullet, which should impede the bullets travel enough to provide for proper ignition even though the case tension is less than it should be.

You'd need one of those combination taper/roll crimp dies but yeah, you probably can get it smaller than the base of the bullet. But keep in mind that the cannelure you create will be smaller even than that (because of springback). In addition, if you create a cannelure where there wasn't one, you're displacing the metal in the bullet. That metal has to go somewhere, and that somewhere is outward. You'll create a "doughnut" of expanded bullet just ahead of the new cannelure. Depending on bullet shape, this doughnut can be larger than the bore diameter - creating a whole new set of problems.

I still think that in order to apply the crimp you're talking about, you'd likely bulge the bejesus out of the case.

 

[BIG GUN]

Sigh...



Not without a cannelure you can't.

If there's not a place for the brass to go (a cannelure) then the lead is ALWAYS going to deform more than the brass, and the brass is always going to spring back more than the lead, leaving a gap. The harder you crimp it, the worse it gets.

There was a big argument between Lee & Hornady a few years back Re: using Lee's factory crimp die on non cannelured brass. Lee said it made no difference, and I think he eventually won.

 

[BillO]

Sigh all you want, but I would wager those bullets can be removed by hand. There needs to be something to slow the bullet enough to allow the powder to burn. I would like to know what the case mouth caliper reading is on those rounds.

Out of this one because the bad powder solved the problem. On to other things.

RGS,

The case mouth measured .472 and they were in tight. It had to be bad powder as the other container of 231 worked well. I wish I had paid more attention to the container seal when I opened it. Also, I'm guessing the 9mm's worked better due to the higher pressures and better ignition. Who knows ? The bad powder is now helping my vegetable garden grow.