Training- fundamentals, not combat, action, etc

[Lugnut]

It seems like there are gazzilions of classes out there that emphasize action shooting and defensive shooting, etc. I've taken many and certainly appreciate them.

However- I'm a firm believer of getting the fundamentals right before advancing to other forms of shooting. My perspective is that fundamentals will improve my action shooting. Are there any classed that really focus on the basics? I think I have a reasonable understanding but I think I could use more emphasis on trigger control (I'm sure I slap the trigger under pressure/speed and don't prep the trigger well), proper grip for my guns, etc. while building up to faster shooting, then on the move. I just don't want to keep practicing potential bad habits. I seem to shoot ok when going slow, but things tend to degrade when my speed increases.

Any suggestions for good classes? I dry fire practice alot- not sure if I do it enough.

 

[M1911]

Actually, most of the classes get back to the fundamentals. I think Randy Cain's 3 day pistol class taught be a great deal about the fundamentals, even though I'd already taken ~180 hours of training before hand. He went right back to trigger pull, grip, sight picture, etc. Yes, he covered shooting moving targets and shooting on the move. But much of the first day was spent on the fundamentals.

 

[Lugnut]

Actually, most of the classes get back to the fundamentals. I think Randy Cain's 3 day pistol class taught be a great deal about the fundamentals, even though I'd already taken ~180 hours of training before hand. He went right back to trigger pull, grip, sight picture, etc. Yes, he covered shooting moving targets and shooting on the move. But much of the first day was spent on the fundamentals.

Yes, I've been to some of the Sig Arms classes. And they too spend a fair amount of time on trigger prep, etc. I'm just looking for more of that I guess. I'll do a google on Randy Cain... but that'w what I'm looking for. How big where the classes? I'd like more one on one time if possible. I think part of the problem with some of the bigger classes is that the range of hand gun skills is very wide... sometimes the instructors spend more time with the noobs. I think I know that basics.. but I need someone that can see how/what I'm doing when things start to break down at speed, etc.

Thanks for the suggestion!



EDIT: Just found his website... the Intermediate Handgun looks like a perfect class- nothing scheduled though. TH101 is coming in Pelham, NH though.

 

[M1911]

Lugnut:

They're pretty big. IIRC, on the order of 15 students.

For me, the only thing that improved my accuracy at speed was dry drills in the basement with timer using par time.

 

[Lugnut]

Lugnut:

They're pretty big. IIRC, on the order of 15 students.

For me, the only thing that improved my accuracy at speed was dry drills in the basement with timer using par time.

Point taken. I could get more disiplined too.. but here's one example of something I'm now unclear about:

How tight of a grip? I've heard MANY varying opinions on this. Some say strong hand (and weak) should be firm so when squeezing the trigger finger, the remaining strong hand fingers don't alter the grip- otherwise they could cause a slight movement. Some have said to grip the gun only as firm as needed to hold the gun steady.... don't fight the recoil at all. However when squeezing the trigger the reamining fingers tend to tighten causing possible movement of grip- I've seen this happen to me.. I thought I was shorting the trigger (not enough trigger) for months- wasn't the case.

Oh well... I'm going to consider this class anyway- it looks good.

 

[Lynne]

Lug - do you know any instructors? (like for Basic Pistol) If so, ask them to spend some time with you going over the basic fundamentals of stance, sight alignment, trigger squeeze, etc. Have them watch you shoot to see what, if anything, you're doing wrong. It would probably be cheaper to do that than to find a course. FWIW

 

[Lugnut]

Lug - do you know any instructors? (like for Basic Pistol) If so, ask them to spend some time with you going over the basic fundamentals of stance, sight alignment, trigger squeeze, etc. Have them watch you shoot to see what, if anything, you're doing wrong. It would probably be cheaper to do that than to find a course. FWIW

LOL. I am an NRA Basic Pistol Safety instructor! I'm looking for more advanced tips I guess. Never can get the basics good enough!! Just fyi I'm not a bad shooter, just want to get better! Always raising the bar!

 

[Len-2A Training]

I thought Jim Crews http://www.marksmans.com/ was one of the best for the "basics" and excellent preparation for the defensive tactics course.

Jim Crews course was my first professional training in 2004 (3 days). I was in the Randy Cain course with M1911 in 2005 and that was an excellent follow-on.

From Jim's website it looks like he no longer is scheduling classes around the country. I suppose if you want to take a trip out to Montana you can arrange some very good quality time training with one of the masters.

 

[M1911]

How tight of a grip? I've heard MANY varying opinions on this. Some say strong hand (and weak) should be firm so when squeezing the trigger finger, the remaining strong hand fingers don't alter the grip- otherwise they could cause a slight movement. Some have said to grip the gun only as firm as needed to hold the gun steady.... don't fight the recoil at all. However when squeezing the trigger the reamining fingers tend to tighten causing possible movement of grip- I've seen this happen to me.. I thought I was shorting the trigger (not enough trigger) for months- wasn't the case.

Yes, there are different opinions on this. Ayoob recommends that you crush the grip. I no longer do this.

The most important thing is to have a grip that is consistent. IIRC, Randy Cain suggested that you use a firm grip, with about 40% of the pressure from your strong hand and 60% from your support hand. Furthermore, DO NOT try to stop the recoil. The gun will go up and come back down. Try this drill at a range. Hold the gun one-handed, but only using your thumb and middle finger -- your ring finger and pinkie should be off the grip. Pull the trigger. What happens? The muzzle rises and settles back down. Lesson learned: you don't need to muscle the gun, and most of your pressure from your strong hand should come from your thumb and middle finger.

If your remaining fingers tighten when you are pulling the trigger (this is called milking the grip), the gun will indeed move, typically pulling the muzzle down. Try this: hold the gun one-handed. Tighten up your grip. The loosen. Tighten again. You'll probably see the muzzle going down as you tighten. You do not want to do this. This is what takes lots and lots of dry practice -- so that you can move your trigger finger without moving any other muscle in your hand.

 

[Lugnut]

Yes, there are different opinions on this. Ayoob recommends that you crush the grip. I no longer do this.

The most important thing is to have a grip that is consistent. IIRC, Randy Cain suggested that you use a firm grip, with about 40% of the pressure from your strong hand and 60% from your support hand. Furthermore, DO NOT try to stop the recoil. The gun will go up and come back down. Try this drill at a range. Hold the gun one-handed, but only using your thumb and middle finger -- your ring finger and pinkie should be off the grip. Pull the trigger. What happens? The muzzle rises and settles back down. Lesson learned: you don't need to muscle the gun, and most of your pressure from your strong hand should come from your thumb and middle finger.

If your remaining fingers tighten when you are pulling the trigger (this is called milking the grip), the gun will indeed move, typically pulling the muzzle down. Try this: hold the gun one-handed. Tighten up your grip. The loosen. Tighten again. You'll probably see the muzzle going down as you tighten. You do not want to do this. This is what takes lots and lots of dry practice -- so that you can move your trigger finger without moving any other muscle in your hand.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, thanks. I'll work on the exercise more. I think you are right about the practice. I can do all this fine when firing slow to moderate, but when picking up the pace I "think" I'm milking it a little- that's why I want to go to a good class to see if someone can pick up on this, it's not an easy thing to see I'm sure because we're only talking a couple to three inches off at 25-30ft +/-.

FWIW I went to range last night with my Sig 228- slow fire (~2 secs between shots) was great for me giving mostly 2" groups. I DID notice when picking up the pace my trigger prep was going to crap as well and I tended to yank the trigger causing the holes to go left and down- maybe some milking too but yanking the trigger was definitely happening. It was dificult but when I tried to completely concentrate on the front sight AND trigger prep while increasing speed, thus getting a completely surprise break, the bullets were grouping much tighter at speed.

Anyway thanks for the advice and help- I'll be sure to practice dry firing more to control milking and yanking the trigger. Damn it's not easy to get better at this stuff!

I'm still going to consider Randy's class, it looks like a good one.

 

[M1911]

Lugnut: Dryfiring with a timer on par time will help more than life fire practice. You'll be able to see the front sight move without being distracted by recoil and report. Here's the sort of drill that I'm talking about:

Start with your gun unloaded (no live ammo in the room), in a holster. Have the par time set to 4 seconds. Hit the timer (have it start with a random delay). When the beep goes off, draw, aim at your target, pull the trigger twice. If your gun is a 1911 or Glock, don't worry try to cock it between trigger pulls. The second pull won't be a real trigger pull, just put more pressure on the trigger. Your goal is to get draw and get two good shots in before the final beep on the timer. Your goal is to be slow, smooth, and perfect. Do this 5 times. Now reduce par time to 3 seconds. Repeat. Reduce to 2.5 seconds, repeat. Etc.

You can do the same with various other drills -- two to the body, one to the head, etc. All you need is a paper IDPA target taped to the wall and a timer that will do par time and a random start delay.

 

[Lugnut]

Lugnut: Dryfiring with a timer on par time will help more than life fire practice. You'll be able to see the front sight move without being distracted by recoil and report. Here's the sort of drill that I'm talking about:

Start with your gun unloaded (no live ammo in the room), in a holster. Have the par time set to 4 seconds. Hit the timer (have it start with a random delay). When the beep goes off, draw, aim at your target, pull the trigger twice. If your gun is a 1911 or Glock, don't worry try to cock it between trigger pulls. The second pull won't be a real trigger pull, just put more pressure on the trigger. Your goal is to get draw and get two good shots in before the final beep on the timer. Your goal is to be slow, smooth, and perfect. Do this 5 times. Now reduce par time to 3 seconds. Repeat. Reduce to 2.5 seconds, repeat. Etc.

You can do the same with various other drills -- two to the body, one to the head, etc. All you need is a paper IDPA target taped to the wall and a timer that will do par time and a random start delay.

Good ideas, thanks- I need to get a good timer. Never thought of actually timing myself... don't know why, I should have been doing this a while ago.

 

[GTOShootr]

Not a class or one on one, but Matt Burkett's DVD series helped me a lot. You can go back over and over again as you need. Volume 1 and 2 review fundamentals. 3 is "How to shoot faster" and 7 (?) is "How to practice". It is oriented toward the practical shooting sports but the marksmanship principles are universal. You can get them here: www.mle-shootingsports.com

Matt also has Podcasts on his website with interviews with top shooters and trainers. I know the one with Angus Hobdell discusses different views on grip.

My 2 cents, trying to go fast rarely works. When being smooth and deliberate with relaxation is your goal, the speed will just be there as an outcome rather than a component you incorporate. It is hard to put into words.

 

[M1911]

My 2 cents, trying to go fast rarely works. When being smooth and deliberate with relaxation is your goal, the speed will just be there as an outcome rather than a component you incorporate. It is hard to put into words.

+1 Hurrying messes up your accuracy.

Also, consider getting Perfect Practice, by Saul Kirsch.

 

[Wingwiper]

LugNut

I just read all of the posts and it sounds like to me, YOU already know the basics and maybe you are thinking if you attend enough classes YOUR shooting will get better.

I disagree, what you need now is practice, practice. I don't know what your goal is, is it shooting a bottle cap at 25 meters or is it shooting a pie plate at 30?

I would suggest getting a Ruger Mark IV and load up with BRICKS of ammo and start FAST PRACTICING. Draw and fire, or fire 12 rounds as fast as you can. You already know the BASICS if you have sat thru all of the classes, you seem to be looking for Mental Support and that will only come from you and plenty of practice. The more you practice the more refined you become.

A guy learning to play a guitar is pretty sloppy too and the more he practices the more graceful he becomes and eventually he becomes a Jeff Beck, Mark Knoffler or whatever.


JUST DO IT

 

[Lugnut]

Yeah, I do know the basics. I also know that to get much better there are details that sometimes can get overlooked. As they say- practice doesn't make perferct- perfect practice makes perfect. FWIW I do shoot a fair amount- with and without ammo.

LugNut

I just read all of the posts and it sounds like to me, YOU already know the basics and maybe you are thinking if you attend enough classes YOUR shooting will get better.

I disagree, what you need now is practice, practice. I don't know what your goal is, is it shooting a bottle cap at 25 meters or is it shooting a pie plate at 30?

I would suggest getting a Ruger Mark IV and load up with BRICKS of ammo and start FAST PRACTICING. Draw and fire, or fire 12 rounds as fast as you can. You already know the BASICS if you have sat thru all of the classes, you seem to be looking for Mental Support and that will only come from you and plenty of practice. The more you practice the more refined you become.

A guy learning to play a guitar is pretty sloppy too and the more he practices the more graceful he becomes and eventually he becomes a Jeff Beck, Mark Knoffler or whatever.


JUST DO IT

 

[KMaurer]

Yeah, I do know the basics. I also know that to get much better there are details that sometimes can get overlooked. As they say- practice doesn't make perferct- perfect practice makes perfect. FWIW I do shoot a fair amount- with and without ammo.

Same thing goes for speed. Absolutely anybody can shoot really fast; most of them just can't hit anything. You'll never improve on that by practicing shooting faster than you can consistently hit yout target. If you're putting all your shots into one jagged hole, you're probably shooting too slow. If they're not all on target (solid, scoring hits), then you're shooting too fast. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Ken

 

[M.Nastek]

??? What is the pupose of carrying a weapon I.E a "HANDGUN"? The training that one needs for this purpose is defensive, tactical and CQB. And every good and well rounded instructor is and does start with the basics at the beginning of each and every course. Focusing on sight alignment, trigger control and target acqusition and of course mindset(With a heavy dose of Safety). Then we move up and on from there challenging and honing our abilities. The question one needs to ask themselves is am I prepared, ready to do what may need to be done if and when the need presents itself. The more basic skills training that is progressivley expanded upon by more advanced courses is what is required. Streaching your skills and mind. If one is worried about the constant one hole group and not a tactical placement of ones rounds in a palm sized group with concise head shots when needed. Then stick with BULLSEYE training with timed and point scoring methods.

Thats my 2 Cents worth.

 

[JimConway]

Practice

I agree that a lot of dry firing will improve you shooting as long as all of the dry firing is performed to perfection. I have heard people say that they do not need instruction since they had just bought the instructor's latest book/video. My comment to them has always been "I hope that the book or video is one of those new ones that watch and critique your progress.

Many people think that all instructors have to do is to explain and then demonstrate some new or revised technique. While we do this, the most important thing that we do is to observe, critique, and help the shooter fine tune their skills. Some of our students have been surprised that we often have as many as 3 or 4 instructors in a class with 10 students. We do this for 3 reasons. First and foremost is SAFETY. The second reason is that the additional instructors are able to assist the students and help them build their skill sets much faster. The final reason is that in shooting "One size does not fir all" Now and then we see a student struggling with a technique that is very difficult for them to perform correctly. The instructor will always try to suggest some other way to perform the same task.

One example of this form of teaching is is the presentation. For you cowboy types, the presentation is the "draw" We start with a 5 count presentation and quickly move the students to a 4 count presentation and finally to a 3 count presentation. This whole precess usually takes about 30 minutes.

 

[Wingwiper]

Jim

My point is simply at what point does the student realize that he/she has to start shooting and applying what they have already been learnt and shoot a lot to see if it has improved them at all. No one willl be able to learnr by JUST taking classes.

I once spent one FULL week, 10 hours each day over a Single shoulder's shoulder (we lost an OLD shooter and picked up this guy quick and were heading to the Nationals and needed a burnt old to fill the min. quota), saying "Hold, cheek, sight alignment, shallow breath, slight pressure on the trigger, sight picture, follow thru, release to the first click"
He fired well and probably had the basics embedded in his head after day three and I should have just let him go and shoot. He and I both would have learned alot more about how much he had learned or didn't learn by watching him for two days. Fast shooting will show mistakes quicker than slow shooting. Rapid Fire the shooter doesn't have time to think and dress it up and should be doing it out of instinct and many cases a rapid fire string will be better than a slow fire string, cause he didn't milk the round for so damn long so that the begining of his list started to fall apart before he got to the end. Positive lists are always shorter than Negative ones.
One needs to just do it and observe as well, my 2 cents..

 

[TonyD]

LUGNUT - I would suggest you take advantage of Mr. Conway's offer of the free handgun clinic he's offering in another thread.

To make, and reiterate, a few important points;

Marksmanship fundementals are unchanging. They do, however, deviate slightly when applied to a particular shooting discipline. Combat defensive CQB training is wholely unlike service rifle or IPSC action shooting.

Two things I preach when I'm tutoring shooters have already mentioned but bear repeating:

Slow is smooth - smooth is fast. This relates to presention of your weapon, and, I too, teach it in a five - count movement much the same way I was taught Drill in the Corps. Why? Because it works.

I totally disagree with the statement about a loose grip and not controlling recoil. It is true that you can shoot most any handgun in that manner to demonstrate that recoil is not going to cause the weapon to jump up and slap you in the forehead. However, limp-wristing can cause your semi-auto to not cycle and is something I suggest you try to aviod in a gunfight!

A proper grip, locked wrist and the presentation are all parts of obtaining the NPOA (natural point of aim) in combat handgunning. AND, this is one area I believe a lot of instructors fail to realize and properly teach. NPOA is one of the basic fundementals - it is just applied differently in CQB, carbine, or Skeet, for that matter.

As already stated, if you are concerned about making ragged holes at 25 meters - stick to timed bullseye shooting.

There are no "advanced shooting techniques". From the new course I'm developing, "There is only the refinement of the basic fundementals coupled with the necessary tactics to effect a desired outcome".

 

[M1911]

I totally disagree with the statement about a loose grip and not controlling recoil. It is true that you can shoot most any handgun in that manner to demonstrate that recoil is not going to cause the weapon to jump up and slap you in the forehead. However, limp-wristing can cause your semi-auto to not cycle and is something I suggest you try to aviod in a gunfight!

I think, perhaps, that either you misread what I wrote or that I was unclear.

I'm not saying that you should leave your wrist unlocked. I did not say that you should use a "loose" grip. What I am saying is that I no longer agree with Ayoob's "crush-grip" dogma. When I took LFI-1, Ayoob taught that you should be trying to crush the grip, that when you take your hand off the gun you should see the grip checkering pattern imprinted on your palm momentarily. I shot this way for years. I don't any longer and I'm a faster, better shot than before.

Yes, you should use a "firm grip" (and you'll find that exact phrase in my post above). But a firm grip is not Ayoob's crush grip. Yes, you should lock your wrists. The gun will recoil upwards and if you anticipate that recoil or try to stop it, you'll tend to milk your grip, lowering the muzzle as you pull the trigger. That will throw your shots low. You must isolate the movement of your trigger finger from the strength of your grip.

Try this exercise: hold your unloaded gun in your dominant hand. Increase the strength of your grip (particularly your ring and middle fingers). Now relax your grip. Do it again. Did you see what happened to the muzzle? It probably lowered when you tightened your grip and raised when you lowered it. My point is not that your grip should be loose, rather than tight. My point is that your grip must be consistent throughout the trigger pull -- don't tighten it as you pull the trigger, because that will likely pull your front sight low.

Shooting single-handed with just your middle finger and thumb holding the gun is an exercise. Neither I nor Randy Cain are saying that is how you should shoot. It is designed to demonstrate, as you said, that the gun isn't going to smack you in the forehead and therefore you do not need to try to press it down to prevent it from doing so.

 

[bpm990d]

There are no "advanced shooting techniques". From the new course I'm developing, "There is only the refinement of the basic fundementals coupled with the necessary tactics to effect a desired outcome".

Very well said.

B

 

[TonyD]

I think, perhaps, that either you misread what I wrote or that I was unclear.

I didn't mean to offend or take out of context - I was simply trying to illustrate a point.

Grip pressure is very difficult to explain as it is a physical feeling. I advocate 50 / 50, push-pull with a firm handshake pressure. The problem is that's still open to interpretation as not everyone has the same idea of a firm handshake. I will shake hands with whomever I'm training until they exert the pressure I believe is necessary. The exact pressure will vary from individual but it gives them a starting point.

The firmer the pressure the less likely you are to "milk" the grip and it also helps to decrease the severity of bad trigger control. This may be why Ayoob advocates a death grip.

 

[M1911]

I didn't mean to offend or take out of context - I was simply trying to illustrate a point.

No offense taken.

It just seemed that you were suggesting that I recommend a loose grip. I don't. I advocate a firm grip, but not Ayoob's crush grip.

 

[JimConway]

Just shooting or classes

Wingwiper
It does not matter how long you have been shooting, how much you dry fire, or how many classses you have had, we all fall prey to minor mistakes that effect our shooting. I am very lucky that i have a group of very good shooters that look over my shoulder from time to time and offer suggestions. Actually, it is more like them saying "Hey Dummy, Do you know what you just did?? Then there is some laughter and various snide remarks.

With that aside, I am finding that i am doing quite a few private 1 or 2 hour coaching sessions. The students in these sessions seem very positive that the sessions are doing them good and speeding up thier progress.

Just my thoughts. We all need and should get some feedback on how we are doing.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Wingwiper
It does not matter how long you have been shooting, how much you dry fire, or how many classses you have had, we all fall prey to minor mistakes that effect our shooting. I am very lucky that i have a group of very good shooters that look over my shoulder from time to time and offer suggestions. Actually, it is more like them saying "Hey Dummy, Do you know what you just did?? Then there is some laughter and various snide remarks.

With that aside, I am finding that i am doing quite a few private 1 or 2 hour coaching sessions. The students in these sessions seem very positive that the sessions are doing them good and speeding up thier progress.

Just my thoughts. We all need and should get some feedback on how we are doing.

Good point......
Simple passage of time between shooting sessions is one of the biggest "mistakes" many make. I notice it. Muscle memory is lost along with grip strength and trigger control. Shooting IS a perishable skill that degrades without routine practice. My end of day targets are always better than the beginning ones.

 

[Admin]

Just my thoughts. We all need and should get some feedback on how we are doing.

+1 Even when you are practicing every day for 10+ hours a day, feedback is very important. There might be a slight change in your technique that you won't notice but your partner will.

 

[Lugnut]

+1 Even when you are practicing every day for 10+ hours a day, feedback is very important. There might be a slight change in your technique that you won't notice but your partner will.

+1000 also! This is exactly what I was getting at. Jim was actually the one that gave me an idea of why my shots (even with slow fire) would accationally drift slightly to the left (righty shooter, two hands). For the life of me I "thought" I was doing the fundamentals right. It turns out (as M1911 mentioned) I was milking the grip and wasn't isolating my trigger motion from my grip - esentially when I was squeezing the trigger I was also tightening the grip- consistently wrong. I read book after book and talked with many good shooters that couldn't isolate this for me. I thought it was too little trigger all that time and it wasn't the problem- I was trying to correct the wrong thing! Thanks Jim. I'm now getting consistent groups CENTERED- POA=POI finally. However while increasing speed things break down. And finding out just what breaks down is not an easy thing to see IMHO.

I personally think it's very easy for most people to be average shooters that can "apply" the basics. What is very challenging is to get to the next level and just going out to shoot more might not cut it. Many will even say that most of the best practice isn't even with live ammo!

 

[Wingwiper]

Jim
When Lugnut wrote the following it seemed to me, he had already learned the basics and had many classes and he was able to understand the Basics etc. I have no argument with you Tony or any other instructor, I felt that Lug needed to fine tune what he had already learned and move on to the next problem. I apologize for jumping the gun (pun) and felt if he had many classes he already knew about the Push Pull hold and the trigger etc and if he shot fine slow and not so well fast then one of his biggest problems ( I felt) was in the Brain Housing Group.
Being I am not a good enough Pistol Shot to be doing much help, I will leave it up to you experts. I was using too much Rifle judgement and not giving the needed advice for pistol. Sorry.

It seems like there are gazzilions of classes out there that emphasize action shooting and defensive shooting, etc. I've taken many and certainly appreciate them.
However- I'm a firm believer of getting the fundamentals right before advancing to other forms of shooting. My perspective is that fundamentals will improve my action shooting. Are there any classed that really focus on the basics? I think I have a reasonable understanding but I think I could use more emphasis on trigger control (I'm sure I slap the trigger under pressure/speed and don't prep the trigger well), proper grip for my guns, etc. while building up to faster shooting, then on the move. I just don't want to keep practicing potential bad habits. I seem to shoot ok when going slow, but things tend to degrade when my speed increases.

I had th epleasure to have been taught what little I know about Pistol Shooting by Millard Butler and he once said that the difference between Combat Rifle and Combat Pistol is that CP is Controlled jerking and forget most of what you learned in Rifle. That is probably why I never made a good Pistol shooter, I always tried to slowly squeeze and dress it up.