~ TONIGHT ~ Remington Under Fire 9-10PM on CNBC *TONIGHT*

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NEW ~An investigation into claims that the Remington hunting rifle is prone to firing without pulling the trigger and that Remington has known of the alleged flaw for some 60 years. The documentary features insights from corporate insiders. (2010), (Documentary).

> It repeats again tonight from 10-11PM and also, Thursday 12-1AM.​
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They said Remmington estimated 20,000 Model 700s in 1979 may have the problem. So thats about 0.5% defective or so.

Hah, but at least I know why Remington is advertising the "new" X-Mark Pro trigger! Its the fix for the unreliable old one. Great, so now I can buy a 700 like I was planning anyway!
 
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Not the safeties. I was thinking the same thing until I saw the video from the police documenting it.

They pull the trigger. No fire. at this point they remove their hands from the gun and simply touch the bolt hand. Dont even graspt it. it was a literal touch and BANG went off.

Border patrol video showed the same thing but they were using the safety. They close the bolt. aim and just move the safety from safe to fire and BANG. Never touched the trigger.

Crazy!!!!

I have a 700 in .223 and never had a problem with it so far. Maybe 200 rounds through it. Recent model though.
 
OKAY, that's the end of this biased sensationalist investigative report. It only took 5 minutes into it.

The woman said she kept her finger off the trigger and kept the firearm pointed in a safe direction when the firearm discharghed "accidentally."

But the bullet went through the horse trailer and hit her kid behind the trailer. Dead.

Since when is pointing your firearm at a horse trailer safe? Morons. The fact that the REM 700 has to have the safety disengaged to unload the breech is irrelevant.

Safe directions means SAFE DIRECTION. SAFE DIRECTION.SAFE DIRECTION.SAFE DIRECTION.SAFE DIRECTION.SAFE DIRECTION.SAFE DIRECTION.

There's kind of a good reason that practically EVERY SINGLE SAFETY TRAINING COURSE has that "SAFE DIRECTION" edict as the #1 rule that takes precedence over every other single rule that ever existed, does exist, and WILL exist in the future. A VERY GOOD REASON.

Always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction. Not at a dwelling, residence, person, animal, bomb, fire, bird, body part, enemy, unless you intend to stop the threat of, or kill, said dwelling, residence, person, animal, bomb, fire, bird, body part, enemy.
 
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I know this is the same channel that just aired a piece saying it's easy to buy .50 machine guns in the US, but is there any validity to this show? Anyone here have this issue?
 
And is it me, or does it look like these people videotaping the rifle going off by touching the bolt are first pulling the trigger with the safety on, disengaging, and then handling the bolt mechanism?

Sure, that could be a design flaw, but I would like to understand the reason why someone is ready to fire, pulls trigger and realizes the safety is on...disengages the safety, and then works the bolt after moving the firearm in a direction that is not the intended point of impact? Anyone? Anyone?
 
maee said:
Well, the problem with this story is that if you have a gun that has sold 5 million copies, what percentage develop these issues? And how much trigger tinkering was done? Maybe its not a real problem if its a very small fraction.
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Doesn't really hold water. That's why you really can't judge critical defects in pure percentages. Defects per million matters. 95% hit rate is terrific for free throws over 200 tries. That same success rate over 200 surgeries means 10 people died due to defects/ errors. In my opinion a defect in a firearm trigger is more akin to surgery than free throws.
 
OH...MY...GOD...

The sniper training school at Camp LeJune in NC reported that "some rifles were going off two or more times every 20 rounds."

Hmm. So a bolt-action rifle can actually fire a second round without the action being cycled? Fascinating. Of course, CNBC quoted the document very slyly. "some rifles were going off..."

They didn't say it was the Rem 700 that was doing so. OMG, I need to stop watching this thing.
 
NBC - The wonderful folks who brought you the exploding pickup trucks. They couldn't get the gas tanks to explode on impact, so they planted charges.
 
HooVooLoo said:
And is it me, or does it look like these people videotaping the rifle going off by touching the bolt are first pulling the trigger with the safety on, disengaging, and then handling the bolt mechanism?

Sure, that could be a design flaw, but I would like to understand the reason why someone is ready to fire, pulls trigger and realizes the safety is on...disengages the safety, and then works the bolt after moving the firearm in a direction that is not the intended point of impact? Anyone? Anyone?
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Pull a trigger and no bang what do you do? POINT THE BARREL IN A SAFE DIRECTION
None of these incidents were in a safe direction.
And how the hell did the guy get shot by his through his arm and out his hand?? Cant wait to hear this one.

I dont think at any time during safe handling your arm is supposed to be over the barrel. Just me maybe but I am sticking with Remington and user fault ever single time. Safe handling of firearms assumes shit happens and is designed so that possibiliy for injury is eliminated or reduced to superficial.
 
SteveCase said:
How light have the triggers been worked?
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They hadn't mentioned that by the half-way mark, but it is irrelevant. If the #1 edict is followed, WGAF if the thing has a twitchy firing pin?

If I point a torch lighter at my eyeball instead of the end of the cigarette and go blind in that eye when I pull the trigger, whose fault is it?

Never blame the tool. Blame the user of the tool.
 
HooVooLoo said:
They hadn't mentioned that by the half-way mark, but it is irrelevant. If the #1 edict is followed, WGAF if the thing has a twitchy firing pin?

If I point a torch lighter at my eyeball instead of the end of the cigarette and go blind in that eye when I pull the trigger, whose fault is it?

Never blame the tool. Blame the user of the tool.
Click to expand...


wow wow wow

all i was saying was maybe the triggers were worked extemely light and that was a reason it was happening, apparently so much...i blame the user for messing with the trigger past what it was designed for.
 
I think the CNBC report was fairly good. If 1% of these guns are malfunctioning because of a design flaw that costs only 5.5 cents to fix, than Remington should have made the fix. 1% is way too high for the rifle to be considered reliable. It needs to be more like 0.01% before its acceptable.

And the firearms expert said it best when he said that the old "always point the gun in a safe direction" rule can't work 100% of the time. Yes, it will save your ass 99.9% of the time, and that coupled with the fact that only 1% of Remington 700s have this issue make any possibility extremely remote.

But when you have 5 million rifles sold and 1% have this issue, there are going to be unfortunate accidents as a result of this design flaw. How many times have you been at the range when some inexperienced person or cocky moron does something stupid? Its harder than you think to always follow all gun safety rules with perfection.

Gun manufactures shouldn't be liable for honest design or manufacturing errors, but if they can prove a 60 year cover-up by Remington, than that crosses the line into negligence and willful disregard for safety and human life.

Nothing is 100% in life, not Remington's rifle (even with the fixed trigger) and not even the safe gun handling rules. But if both are followed to the maximum extent possible, the risk of injury is extremely low. The problem here is that Remington may not have upheld their end of the bargain.
 
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maee said:
Nothing is 100% in life, not Remington's rifle (even with the fixed trigger) and not even the safe gun handling rules.
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I'll have to disagree with ya' there. They are 100% if they are followed 100% of the time.

If you attempt to land a retractable-gear airplane 100 times, and one time out of 100 you neglect to follow the pre-landing checklist and assure the landing gear has been lowered on final approach and belly it onto the pavement, the only entity to be blamed for the "accident" is the pilot.

The 3 firearm safety rules work 100% of the time, every time, if they are followed. Every single time. There is NO exception to this success rate. It is simply impossible for it to be otherwise.

Cite a case/story/incident whatever where if the three rules are followed, someone gets injured/killed. Please. I'd love to also see a perpetual motion machine. Ain't gonna' happen.
 
HooVooLoo said:
I'll have to disagree with ya' there. They are 100% if they are followed 100% of the time.
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Thats the typical logic which is just specious. You can't follow the "point it in a safe direction" rule 100% of the time. It is humanly impossible. You could maybe do it 99.9% of the time, while the general public is going to be more like 99% of the time, but 100% is simply an impossibility. Heck, you could have an epileptic seizure and bump the safety. You could be pointing it at the ground, and it ricochets and takes somebody's eye out. It could skip off of water and kill somebody. There could be somebody hunting turkey in camo behind a tree you didn't see. You could be pointing it in a safe direction, and somebody runs off in front of you before you have a chance to see.

And how much hunting do you do? Its a different dynamic with more complexity than just sitting down at a shooting range with lanes, range officers and cease fire sirens.

Point is, if you sell 5 million Remington 700s with a 1% failure rate, you are going to have deaths from those failures, even among responsible shooters who are trying to follow the rules. Its the law of large numbers.
 
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maee said:
Point is, if you sell 5 million Remington 700s with a 1% failure rate, you are going to have deaths from those failures, even among responsible shooters who are trying to follow the rules. Its the law of large numbers.
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There doesn't HAVE to be any death is MY point. Since when is the ground considered a safe direction? Since when is shooting across the water considered safe? Since when is handling a firearm by someone prone to having seizues considered safe? And I do not believe that the general population HAS to have 1% of them that doesn't follow all three rules. The failure is on the person handling the gun, not the gun itself. That is how these "accidents" happen. Negligence and ignorance.

If you'd like me to support my 100% claim on the water and hunter-behind-the-tree scenarios, then I invoke the 4th rule for an additional layer of safety...

Always know what is beyond your target. If you don't know what is beyond your target DON'T FIRE THE WEAPON. It's not the gun's fault for not knowing there was a hunter in camo behind a tree. And isn't it considered a bad idea to wear camo while hunting on land where there are other hunters? Thought you were suppossed to wear Day-Glo™ flourescent orange to help prevent this sort of thing from happening?
 
The fact of the matter is Remington had a design flaw that, by chance the action wasn't clean and the trigger connector was disturbed, would cause an unintentional discharge without manipulation of the trigger. This design has been internally known since the design's inception and even the designer knew about it and made several attempts to have Remington alter the design with no success.

Sure, there is a very small percentage that is effected and what would be mathematically considered to be minimal deaths/injuries have been sustained, but like it was said earlier...human loss isn't exactly akin to a faulty window regulator recall on a Chevy Silverado.

I'm not saying Remington should pay out, because if the actions were cleaned regularly and kept free of debris, an ID wouldn't occur. That's not their responsibility, that's the end-user's responsibility. I'm just saying shame on them for not making the public aware of the issue.
 
Received this email.

The following message was sent to you via the Northeastshooters.com Contact Us form by Remington ( mailto:[email protected] ).

--------------------------------

For nearly fifty years, the Remington Model 700 rifle has been the preferred choice for millions of hunters, shooting sports enthusiasts and military and law enforcement personnel. For Remington’s response to CNBC, visit www.Remington700.tv.

Remington Arms Company, Inc.
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Steelhorse said:
I'm not saying Remington should pay out, because if the actions were cleaned regularly and kept free of debris, an ID wouldn't occur. That's not their responsibility, that's the end-user's responsibility. I'm just saying shame on them for not making the public aware of the issue.
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On this I agree, as far as letting the public know.

One other thing that bothered me was how they kept touting how it would have been 5.5 cents to fix each gun. But how much was 1940's 5.5 cents worth in today's dollar equivalent, indexed for inflation? A few dollars?
 
HooVooLoo said:
OH...MY...GOD...

The sniper training school at Camp LeJune in NC reported that "some rifles were going off two or more times every 20 rounds."

Hmm. So a bolt-action rifle can actually fire a second round without the action being cycled? Fascinating. Of course, CNBC quoted the document very slyly. "some rifles were going off..."

They didn't say it was the Rem 700 that was doing so. OMG, I need to stop watching this thing.
Click to expand...

I hope what they meant that the situation where it fails to fire with trigger, and fires when bolt is moved happend 2/20 rounds. Even then, if I had a problem like that I would investigate, find the problem, and repair any others that I own, not keep training with a known (and latent) defect/deficiency.

I think the part that bothers me the most isn't the situation where a person assumes it's pointed in a safe direction (follow the rules and keep chances of mistakes to a minimum). I'd be worried if the rifle was used during a hostage situation, the LEO firing gets a fail to fire with the suspect targeted, goes to chamber another round and it fires unexpectedly without proper aim.


Just adding, I would still consider purchasing one. I never have a firearm loaded without keeping it pointed safely, finger off trigger until ready, and fail to fires are handled as if I am going to fire. If I start carrying, it'll be hard to say loaded and pointed safely when holstered.
 
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Teknatic1 said:
If I start carrying, it'll be hard to say loaded and pointed safely when holstered.
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Then simply keep it "unloaded" until you are ready to shoot if the idea of having a stuffed pipe would make you feel uneasy. following rule #2. However, from a safety standpoint, that really wouldn't matter since rule #3 is still in effect in this case. (The bit about finger off trigger until ready.)

Can't ever recall reading about a holstered handgun "accidentally discharging" if it is not actually handled by the bearer.
 

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