Billsail
NES Member
So you're OK with 51% oppressing 49%?? I guess if you're the oppressor, it's all good. Not you, of course, I mean mean the "state", in general.
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They’re coming for your guns
- Thread starter scubadive.ri
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So you're OK with 51% oppressing 49%?? I guess if you're the oppressor, it's all good. Not you, of course, I mean mean the "state", in general.
D
Deleted member 12999
He's the messenger. Don't shoot the messenger!
Ok. That was just some friendly ball busting.... -Booze
xtry51
NES Member
PrimusTactical
Banned
I'm not ok with ANYONE oppressing anyone. Whether it's 99-1 or any other combo.
For the record, when I said Majority Rules in this system I meant in passing laws, which is the truth and the process. Where Majority DOESNT rule is over your rights. That makes sense. So keep digging...
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He's the messenger. Don't shoot the messenger!
Ok. That was just some friendly ball busting.... -Booze
Even I laughed at that one.
ChevyGuy91
NES Member
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Gladly. I will watch your troll show in attentive silence.
Meh, black and tans gon' black and tan.
drrf, mmmlp, error... error...Wait, did Cekim just win the Internet?![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
![[rofl2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/035.gif "ROFL2 [rofl2]")
Billsail
NES Member
I'm sorry, laws based on "truths" even if derived from proper process, can still oppress the minority.
Damnit, I told you guys to step away from the thread and have some whiskey. On second thought on NES that's like throwing gas on a bonfire!
![[flame]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/032.gif "Flame [flame]")
![[horse]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/026.gif "Beat a dead horse [horse]")
Billsail
NES Member
Billsail
NES Member
Damnit, I told you guys to step away from the thread and have some whiskey. On second thought on NES that's like throwing gas on a bonfire!
Thanks for suggestion scuba, ran out of whiskey...had to switch to vodka. Russian Standard!!! Boo Ya!
I suggested whiskey so guys don't drink all my tequila!
Yes, he ate lead paint chips as a child.
PrimusTactical
Banned
lol You guys are getting desperate with the quotes and slander. It's ok makes me better at Defense in the Court Room.
My first quote, in regards to refuting what I said was in regards to the process of the Gov't. A very SPECIFIC thing I was referring to and stating people weren't refuting.
Keep cutting context boys...
Originally Posted by PrimusTactical
.. my issue is who decides whats a natural right? Me? You? These "natural rights" we are talking about are a concept defined buy some guys.
The idea of natural rights that Jefferson used in the Declaration of Independence was taken from John Locke a British philosopher. See the passage below. The theory wasn't just pulled out of thin air or decided on buy a bunch guys on the forum!
The members of the Continental Congress made only two minor changes in the opening paragraphs of Jefferson's draft declaration. In these two paragraphs, Jefferson developed some key ideas: "all men are created equal," "inalienable rights," "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Where did Jefferson get these ideas?
Jefferson was a man of the Enlightenment. This was the period during the 17th and 18th centuries when thinkers turned to reason and science to explain both the physical universe and human behavior. Those like Jefferson thought that by discovering the "laws of nature" humanity could be improved.
Jefferson did not invent the ideas that he used to justify the American Revolution. He himself said that he had adopted the "harmonizing sentiments of the day." These ideas were, so to speak, "in the air" at the time.
As a man of the Enlightenment, Jefferson was well acquainted with British history and political philosophy. He also had read the statements of independence drafted by Virginia and other colonies as well as the writings of fellow revolutionaries like Tom Paine and George Mason. In composing the declaration, Jefferson followed the format of the English Declaration of Rights, written after the Glorious Revolution of 1689.
Most scholars today believe that Jefferson derived the most famous ideas in the Declaration of Independence from the writings of English philosopher John Locke. Locke wrote his Second Treatise of Government in 1689 at the time of England's Glorious Revolution, which overthrew the rule of James II.
Locke wrote that all individuals are equal in the sense that they are born with certain "inalienable" natural rights. That is, rights that are God-given and can never be taken or even given away. Among these fundamental natural rights, Locke said, are "life, liberty, and property."
Locke believed that the most basic human law of nature is the preservation of mankind. To serve that purpose, he reasoned, individuals have both a right and a duty to preserve their own lives. Murderers, however, forfeit their right to life since they act outside the law of reason.
Locke also argued that individuals should be free to make choices about how to conduct their own lives as long as they do not interfere with the liberty of others. Locke therefore believed liberty should be far-reaching.
By "property," Locke meant more than land and goods that could be sold, given away, or even confiscated by the government under certain circumstances. Property also referred to ownership of one's self, which included a right to personal well being. Jefferson, however, substituted the phrase, "pursuit of happiness," which Locke and others had used to describe freedom of opportunity as well as the duty to help those in want.
The purpose of government, Locke wrote, is to secure and protect the God-given inalienable natural rights of the people. For their part, the people must obey the laws of their rulers. Thus, a sort of contract exists between the rulers and the ruled. But, Locke concluded, if a government persecutes its people with "a long train of abuses" over an extended period, the people have the right to resist that government, alter or abolish it, and create a new political system.
Jefferson adopted John Locke's theory of natural rights to provide a reason for revolution. He then went on to offer proof that revolution was necessary in 1776 to end King George's tyranny over the colonists.
.. my issue is who decides whats a natural right? Me? You? These "natural rights" we are talking about are a concept defined buy some guys.
The idea of natural rights that Jefferson used in the Declaration of Independence was taken from John Locke a British philosopher. See the passage below. The theory wasn't just pulled out of thin air or decided on buy a bunch guys on the forum!
The members of the Continental Congress made only two minor changes in the opening paragraphs of Jefferson's draft declaration. In these two paragraphs, Jefferson developed some key ideas: "all men are created equal," "inalienable rights," "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Where did Jefferson get these ideas?
Jefferson was a man of the Enlightenment. This was the period during the 17th and 18th centuries when thinkers turned to reason and science to explain both the physical universe and human behavior. Those like Jefferson thought that by discovering the "laws of nature" humanity could be improved.
Jefferson did not invent the ideas that he used to justify the American Revolution. He himself said that he had adopted the "harmonizing sentiments of the day." These ideas were, so to speak, "in the air" at the time.
As a man of the Enlightenment, Jefferson was well acquainted with British history and political philosophy. He also had read the statements of independence drafted by Virginia and other colonies as well as the writings of fellow revolutionaries like Tom Paine and George Mason. In composing the declaration, Jefferson followed the format of the English Declaration of Rights, written after the Glorious Revolution of 1689.
Most scholars today believe that Jefferson derived the most famous ideas in the Declaration of Independence from the writings of English philosopher John Locke. Locke wrote his Second Treatise of Government in 1689 at the time of England's Glorious Revolution, which overthrew the rule of James II.
Locke wrote that all individuals are equal in the sense that they are born with certain "inalienable" natural rights. That is, rights that are God-given and can never be taken or even given away. Among these fundamental natural rights, Locke said, are "life, liberty, and property."
Locke believed that the most basic human law of nature is the preservation of mankind. To serve that purpose, he reasoned, individuals have both a right and a duty to preserve their own lives. Murderers, however, forfeit their right to life since they act outside the law of reason.
Locke also argued that individuals should be free to make choices about how to conduct their own lives as long as they do not interfere with the liberty of others. Locke therefore believed liberty should be far-reaching.
By "property," Locke meant more than land and goods that could be sold, given away, or even confiscated by the government under certain circumstances. Property also referred to ownership of one's self, which included a right to personal well being. Jefferson, however, substituted the phrase, "pursuit of happiness," which Locke and others had used to describe freedom of opportunity as well as the duty to help those in want.
The purpose of government, Locke wrote, is to secure and protect the God-given inalienable natural rights of the people. For their part, the people must obey the laws of their rulers. Thus, a sort of contract exists between the rulers and the ruled. But, Locke concluded, if a government persecutes its people with "a long train of abuses" over an extended period, the people have the right to resist that government, alter or abolish it, and create a new political system.
Jefferson adopted John Locke's theory of natural rights to provide a reason for revolution. He then went on to offer proof that revolution was necessary in 1776 to end King George's tyranny over the colonists.
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GunGrey
Banned
apparently PT doesn't know all that much about social contracts. That he claimed to know earlier in the thread
PrimusTactical
Banned
Hate to even bother responding to attacks, but here is the Social Contract I was referring to. It's a Sociological process. Actually researched it in Congress. Read that blurb second line down about people having to give certain things to live in a society. THATS what I was referring to. Any one else?
Social contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I apologize it was from Wikepedia, but it was searched in 10 secs.
John Locke is actually mentioned in that page, but the concept I was referring to was giving up certain things.
Social contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I apologize it was from Wikepedia, but it was searched in 10 secs.
John Locke is actually mentioned in that page, but the concept I was referring to was giving up certain things.
PrimusTactical
Banned
In political philosophy the social contract or political contract is a theory or model, originating during the Age of Enlightenment, that typically addresses the questions of the origin of society and the legitimacy of the authority of thestate over the individual.[SUP][1][/SUP] Social contract arguments typically posit that individuals have consented, either explicitly or tacitly, to surrender some of their freedoms and submit to the authority of the ruler or magistrate (or to the decision of a majority), in exchange for protection of their remaining rights. The question of the relation between natural and legal rights, therefore, is often an aspect of social contract theory.
Although the antecedents of social contract theory are found in antiquity, in Greek and Stoic philosophy and Roman and Canon Law, as well as in the Biblical idea of the covenant, the heyday of the social contract was the mid-seventeenth to early nineteenth centuries, when it emerged as the leading doctrine of political legitimacy. The starting point for most social contract theories is a heuristic examination of the human condition absent from any political order that Thomas Hobbes termed the “state of nature”.[SUP][2][/SUP] In this condition, individuals' actions are bound only by their personal power and conscience. From this shared starting point social contract theorists seek to demonstrate, in different ways, why a rational individual would voluntarily consent to give up his or her natural freedom to obtain the benefits of political order.
This is from that link....
AND before anyone throws the troll word around, I was sitting here killing zombies when this popped up again.
Although the antecedents of social contract theory are found in antiquity, in Greek and Stoic philosophy and Roman and Canon Law, as well as in the Biblical idea of the covenant, the heyday of the social contract was the mid-seventeenth to early nineteenth centuries, when it emerged as the leading doctrine of political legitimacy. The starting point for most social contract theories is a heuristic examination of the human condition absent from any political order that Thomas Hobbes termed the “state of nature”.[SUP][2][/SUP] In this condition, individuals' actions are bound only by their personal power and conscience. From this shared starting point social contract theorists seek to demonstrate, in different ways, why a rational individual would voluntarily consent to give up his or her natural freedom to obtain the benefits of political order.
This is from that link....
AND before anyone throws the troll word around, I was sitting here killing zombies when this popped up again.
PrimusTactical
Banned
I will. I've also recently purchased the 5,000 year leap for better perspective and understanding.
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Ok i'm having trouble what the problem is? I stated that Social Contract (theory) talks about giving something up to get stuff. Where is the issue?
Feels like digging here....
GunGrey
Banned
from my other post
also while your reading grab
Thomas Paine's Common Sense
The Federalist papers
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