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The Right To Keep & Bear Arms Also Includes Knives

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Citing the Supreme Court’s new standard that any restrictions on guns must be “consistent with this nation’s historical tradition of firearms regulation,” the Knife Rights attorneys said the same standard must apply to knives, and that California’s switchblade law “has no historical pedigree nor justification in the Nation’s history and tradition of arms regulation.”
 
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A conservative panel of federal judges ruled Monday that a 30-year ban on butterfly knives in Hawaii is unconstitutional under the U.S. Supreme Court’s new “history and tradition” standard for reviewing the legitimacy of gun and other weapons laws nationwide.
“Hawaii has not demonstrated that its ban on butterfly knives is consistent with this Nation’s historical tradition of regulating arms,” Judge Carlos Bea wrote for the unanimous three-judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.


The ruling, which may be appealed, has implications beyond Hawaii, including in California and other states that also ban or severely restrict butterfly knives, which have been targeted by lawmakers because they can be easily concealed and flipped open.
California bans “switchblades” — which include butterfly knives — when they have blades 2 or more inches in length. A separate lawsuit challenging that ban is pending.
The decision reflects the growing reach of the Supreme Court’s pro-gun rights decision last year in New York State Rifle &Pistol Assn. vs. Bruen, in which the nation’s highest court ruled that restrictions on people’s 2nd Amendment right to bear arms are constitutional only if they are deeply rooted in the nation’s history and tradition or analogous to some historical rule.
Since then, trial and appellate judges have found themselves sifting through century-old state statutes to determine the legality of hundreds of modern weapons restrictions in states all across the country — including on knives and billy clubs, assault weapons and ammunition magazines, and on the possession of guns by certain classes of people, including adults under 21 and people who are subject to restraining orders.
Bea wrote that Hawaii’s 1993 ban on butterfly knives did not meet the criteria because nothing like it existed around the historical benchmarks chosen by the Supreme Court as relevant for such analyses: 1791, when the 2nd Amendment was passed, or 1868, when the 14th Amendment was passed. The latter amendment prohibits states from depriving people of property without due process of law.
Although the Bruen decision specifically addressed firearm regulations, Bea wrote that was only because the case in Bruen was about gun regulations in New York. The same “framework” applies to knives, which are also “arms” under the 2nd Amendment, he said.
Bea, an appointee of President George W. Bush, was joined in his opinion by judges Daniel Collins and Kenneth Lee, both appointees of President Trump.
Butterfly knives have split handles that swing back to form a single handle when the blade inside is revealed. They can be flipped open using just one hand by experienced users.
The knives have been associated with criminals, including in Hollywood films, since at least the 1950s. Some critics have said bans on them are racist, and serve as a pretext for harassing and arresting people of color — particularly Black and Latino men.
Hawaii banned such knives as “dangerous and unusual” weapons popular among gang members and increasingly common in acts of violence. The 9th Circuit panel found that the state had failed to prove they were either of those things, with Bea writing that they are “simply a pocketknife with an extra rotating handle.”
The office of Hawaii Atty. Gen. Anne Lopez said it was still reviewing the decision Monday, but “may have further comment at a later time.”
The case arose after plaintiffs Andrew Teter and James Grell sued the state over the ban, arguing that they are law-abiding citizens who wanted butterfly knives for multiple reasons, including for self-defense.
Grell, a 51-year-old who does accounting for a water utility company on the Big Island of Hawaii, praised the decision Monday.
“It seemed like a pretty obvious ruling to be made in light of all the recent Supreme Court decisions,” he said. “It’s good to see civil liberties prevail.”
Grell said he had owned a butterfly knife — a “relic” from his childhood in Colorado — before moving to Hawaii and saw no reason why he shouldn’t be able to keep it.
“It’s a knife I had since I was a teenager and it just never made any sense that I couldn’t bring it over here.”
Alan Beck, an attorney for Grell and Teter, applauded the court’s ruling as “well reasoned.”
“Hawaii’s complete ban on this type of knife just wasn’t sustainable under the current 2nd Amendment jurisprudence,” he said. “There just aren’t any historical restrictions on pocket knives at all.”
Adam Winkler, a UCLA law professor who focuses on 2nd Amendment law, said the 9th Circuit’s decision “is emblematic of what’s happening across the nation right now.
“Courts are striking down regulation of arms left and right.”
Winkler said the Supreme Court “has put states in the impossible position of showing that any law that regulates weapons for public safety (has) clear analogues in the 1700s and 1800s,” which he added “just leaves courts to draw analogies to laws that were designed for a different society.”
“It really makes no sense,” he said.
After the Bruen decision came down, Hawaii had argued that the knife case should be sent back to a lower trial court so that the parties could conduct additional research around the potential historical analogues for the law. Other cases, including on California gun laws, have been similarly remanded by the 9th Circuit.
However, Bea and his colleagues disagreed, determining they could rule on the case in light of Bruen — and decide on the relevance of any purported analogues — themselves.
Hawaii put forward several such laws, dating back to 1837, including laws that banned or regulated bigger blades such as Bowie knives and “Arkansas Toothpicks,” daggers, brass knuckles, canes concealing swords and knotted ropes with metal weights at the end called “slung-shots.”
An 1837 law in Georgia — which the court called Hawaii’s “best historical analogue” — that said no one shall “keep, or have about or on their person or elsewhere … Bowie, or any other kind of knives.”
Bea wrote that the Georgia law didn’t clearly include “pocketknives” — which in his decision would include butterfly knives — so it wasn’t necessarily relevant. And anyway, he wrote, “one solitary statute is not enough to demonstrate a tradition of an arms regulation.”
Many of the other laws cited by Hawaii regulated not the possession of such weapons entirely, but their concealed carry, or their possession by certain people or in certain places, Bea said.
 
So butterfly knives and switchblades get special banning because they're scary. The question is, are they cool because they're banned in places, because they're scary, or are they just cool? Oh yeah, don't forget gravity knives.

Funny thing, is these don't have any more capability than any other knife. One day my friend at work pulled out an OTF (Benchmade Infidel IIRC) and we all thought it was cool, but we "raced" him opening that with me opening my CRKT with a thumb flick, and they were pretty darn close. We couldn't tell which was faster, but the winner was by a split second. Yet my liner lock is fully legal, and his OTF could get him in trouble.

Is there anything besides guns and knives that are unfairly regulated just for looks?
 
Luck of the draw on this one. Appears they drew three conservative judges in the Ninth Circuit/Circus. This will be appealed and the en banc ruling will probably reverse it.
 
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So butterfly knives and switchblades get special banning because they're scary. The question is, are they cool because they're banned in places, because they're scary, or are they just cool? Oh yeah, don't forget gravity knives.

Funny thing, is these don't have any more capability than any other knife. One day my friend at work pulled out an OTF (Benchmade Infidel IIRC) and we all thought it was cool, but we "raced" him opening that with me opening my CRKT with a thumb flick, and they were pretty darn close. We couldn't tell which was faster, but the winner was by a split second. Yet my liner lock is fully legal, and his OTF could get him in trouble.

Is there anything besides guns and knives that are unfairly regulated just for looks?

I'm holding out for ninja stars to get un-banned in mASS. If you ever wanted to see government incompetence in action, watch the mASS Legislature pass a "this scares me" law after watching 3 Bruce Lee movies.
 
Have any of you actually tried to use a Balisong/Butterfly knife? It takes hours and hours, months to even be able to open one with any speed and not cut yourself. I have spent some time playing with one and after some time and practice I learned some basic tricks and not cut myself. Then i got tired of fooling around and went back to a flipper. So by banning these knifes the ban is only on those who have put the time into learning how to actually use one which has to be a small percent of the population of the places that they are banned, so what's the point?
 
...with me opening my CRKT with a thumb flick, and they were pretty darn close.
no, you're right. i can beat a sb in a drawing contest with virtually any spyderco. i've used that brand for many, many years and it's muscle memory for me that my thumb instinctively motions to the thumbhole and i've got that blade fully open and locked before it clears the last bit of the pocket. but it's not really a fair contest. my spyderco with the pocket clip lays in the same position every time. a switchblade needs to be positioned in the hand to be able to find the button to deploy the blade.
 
Have any of you actually tried to use a Balisong/Butterfly knife? It takes hours and hours, months to even be able to open one with any speed and not cut yourself. I have spent some time playing with one and after some time and practice I learned some basic tricks and not cut myself. Then i got tired of fooling around and went back to a flipper. So by banning these knifes the ban is only on those who have put the time into learning how to actually use one which has to be a small percent of the population of the places that they are banned, so what's the point?

Maybe you're uncoordinated. LOL

I "mastered" it while watching TV as a teenager. I still have the knife.

I will agree it's silly to "carry" b/c it isn't the opening that's the issue, its' holding it the right way the first time. If not, instead of CHICK-CHICK-CHICK and it's open it'll be CHICK- SLICE!!!!! - YEOWWCCHHH!!!!!!

Taking it out of a pocket and holding it correctly just isn't conducive.

I taped up the blade 4-5 years ago and my son just played with it for hours. He got pretty good at it as well.
 
I bought my son a flipper, it's a butterfly knife without a real blade. It's 100% a modified fidget spinner, so he can take it to school and it's some type of plastic so it's quiet, very quiet. I got it mainly so I don't have to hear him playing with one "clack, clackety clack, clack clack".

I used to fidget with one for years, it was so bad that the blade started coming through the brass handle - I guess I know now why it irritated everyone.
 
A flipper is not a balisong/butterfly knife. A flipper is just like any of the thumb opening or spring assist knifes except it fixed on bearings and you can flip it open. Faster then a spring assist
 
I have a fake balisong with a bottle opener instead of knife blade, I played around with it but couldn't even come close to mastering it.
I got bored with it so I just tossed it into a drawer somewhere, it also sucked for opening bottles so it was pretty useless overall.
Maybe I'll give it to my nephew to play with, his mother is a moonbat and she'll likely freak out if she thinks I gave her kid a knife. [laugh]

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The level of retardation from politicians and lawmakers about knives is beyond ignorant and obviously based on their own fears.
How in the hell is one knife more dangerous than another knife, for any reason.
Yes you can still stab someone to death with a 2inch blade knife
 
It's in the Bruen thread
Mega threads are impossible to keep up with for many of us because they're 99% filler posts and only 1% substance.
 
The level of retardation from politicians and lawmakers about knives is beyond ignorant and obviously based on their own fears.
How in the hell is one knife more dangerous than another knife, for any reason.
They would have no idea if some middle aged fat white housewive with 1k pics of a cat on her Facebook page didnt bring it to their attention.
 
If your government thinks you shouldn’t carry a knife they’re basically telling you you’re not allowed to use your hands

which is the ultimate goal of “gun control“
 
The level of retardation from politicians and lawmakers about knives is beyond ignorant and obviously based on their own fears.
How in the hell is one knife more dangerous than another knife, for any reason.

Basically, they should ban that Bruce Lee stare. That's really what is intimidating, not that the knife he has is more or less intimidating than another.


bruce-lee-crazy-kick-o93m2mhp3ulg11hc.gif


And feet. Ban feet.
 
Basically, they should ban that Bruce Lee stare. That's really what is intimidating, not that the knife he has is more or less intimidating than another.


bruce-lee-crazy-kick-o93m2mhp3ulg11hc.gif


And feet. Ban feet.
Correct. But you shouldn’t have feet unless you’re a trained expert with them, otherwise some guy might take them from you and kill you with your own feet.
 
Double-edged switchblades are OK in AZ.
But I don't see the body bags piling up. Go figure.
Me, I'll stick with a good sized spring assist.
 
Have any of you actually tried to use a Balisong/Butterfly knife? It takes hours and hours, months to even be able to open one with any speed and not cut yourself. I have spent some time playing with one and after some time and practice I learned some basic tricks and not cut myself. Then i got tired of fooling around and went back to a flipper. So by banning these knifes the ban is only on those who have put the time into learning how to actually use one which has to be a small percent of the population of the places that they are banned, so what's the point?
Yup. I have two. One o bought years ago. Like 30 years.

It’s slow, a bit tricky and in my opinion nor worth it as a defensive or offense knife.

A good flipper or auto is 10x faster and better. My .02
 
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