The four rules.

[Supermoto]

All ordinance safety rules are written in blood.
And #3 is no exception. One of my late grandfather's friends borrowed his shotgun, and had left it with one in the chamber in his truck. Through a set of circumstances not related to me, he managed to have an accidental discharge, complete with a subsequent loss of his leg. And not my Grandfather's leg, but the poor slob he loaned the shotgun to.

By the way, part of defensive carry (including CCW) means you are maintaining a constant state of readiness regarding its use.

He pulled the trigger while the gun was pointed at his leg, It had nothing to do with keep gun unloaded when not in use. Guns don't just go off, they don't load themselves. Its an inanimate object. I don't need to maintain a constant state of readiness when the gun is sitting loaded while I sleep or is in the safe or on my hip. Its a gun, it goes bang when you pull the trigger, it doesn't go bang when you don't

 

[MisterHappy]

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Should have been clearer, not to imply that it was an ATA rule.

Since you will have up to five shooters on the Trap line, and each is firing in turn, it's often considered bad form to close your action before it's your turn to call for the bird.

I've shot at club where I was asked not to drop a shell in to a chamber, even with the action open, until it was my turn. Their house, their rules.

At an ATA shoot, often when Number 1 calls for a bird, 2 and 3 will be closing, or have closed their actions, as that's the estalished tempo of the squad. This is not a safety hazard, as all the guns are pointing in a safe direction, though it could be argued that it's breaking the "Open until ready" rule.

It's not something I recommend with a new shooter. Often, they tend to rush and that's when mistakes happen...so we try to avoid that...

 

[travis]

I was going to point that out as well. I guess that this guy doesn't carry. Because you not only sweep other people all day long, you're sweeping yourself as well.

Really. I have carried in my private life every day from three days after I turned 18. I have NEVER swept myself. How is that even possible. In what manner drawing aiming or shooting would you have to cover yourself? I can not see many situations unless you where in very tight quarters and even then it woudl be unlikely.

 

[jasons]

Try checking timing on a revolver while observing the "rules." I have one rule: don't be an idiot. (Sometimes I do break that rule, but never with my guns.)

New shooters don't always understand what "don't be an idiot" entails, hence Cooper's rules.

 

[Supermoto]

Really. I have carried in my private life every day from three days after I turned 18. I have NEVER swept myself. How is that even possible. In what manner drawing aiming or shooting would you have to cover yourself? I can not see many situations unless you where in very tight quarters and even then it woudl be unlikely.

The gun is pointing at you when its in the holster

 

[MARINE96]

What spawned this thread to begin with?

 

[TomH]

Really. I have carried in my private life every day from three days after I turned 18. I have NEVER swept myself. How is that even possible. In what manner drawing aiming or shooting would you have to cover yourself? I can not see many situations unless you where in very tight quarters and even then it woudl be unlikely.

Depends on how you are carrying. If your weapon is in close to your body, and the barrel is tilted inwards a bit, the barrel could be pointing into your body all day. If you carry front waistband, you are pointing at your legs (or worse!) whenever you sit down. When you bend over, or get on all fours for any reason, your firearm could be pointing at an individual somewhere behind you. If you are on an escalator in a mall, you could be pointing at someone behind you, etc etc. The point is that none of this is inherently dangerous. The firearm needs trigger input to fire (unless there is something wrong with the firearm perhaps).

If there was only one firearm use rule, I think it should be this: don't pull the trigger while pointed at something you don't want to shoot (I think someone mentioned this one already). This covers the "I didn't think it was loaded" situations that seem to happen often.

 

[GunGrey]

Ive only broken one of those rules once, i swept some one with a .22. Luckly it was empty and my finger was off the trigger. But i still swept some one with a firearm. Still haven't forgot that day, even though nothing happened somthing could have.




But still dont harp the rules to people.

 

[n1zfg]

He pulled the trigger while the gun was pointed at his leg, It had nothing to do with keep gun unloaded when not in use. Guns don't just go off, they don't load themselves. Its an inanimate object. I don't need to maintain a constant state of readiness when the gun is sitting loaded while I sleep or is in the safe or on my hip. Its a gun, it goes bang when you pull the trigger, it doesn't go bang when you don't

Guns have and do go off...I have a BB gun in my safe with a sear that is worn down enough that it won't stay cocked, and will discharge simply by completing the cocking action of the lever.

I have personally operated that shotgun in question and can say with a great degree of certainty, the safety on that gun engages and disengages with remarkable ease. It is downright loose. I could also see it being propped up against the seat of a pickup truck, falling over in the direction of the driver thanks to a pothole, and then something else on the floor finding its way onto the trigger at exactly the wrong time.

Now, dare I quote the "exploding Glock" in your signature as an example that "safety features" designed into a firearm may be subject to defective design or manufacture?

Also, not all guns have the safeties and interlocks that prevent accidental discharge due non-trigger related impact. In fact, most of those features have only been invented during past century.

You even said one of the things that give rule #3 meaning: Guns don't load themselves.

 

[M1911]

The gun is pointing at you when its in the holster

Yup, it generally is, depending upon the holster, position of the holster, and body type. If you are carrying in a pocket holster, the gun is often pointing at others when you are seated. If you are carrying in a horizontal shoulder holster, the muzzle is often pointing at others.

As Supermoto is implying, however, a holstered gun is a safe gun -- the holster covers the trigger guard, so the trigger can't be pulled with the gun in the holster.

 

[travis]

To avoid confusion, I've been trying to keep consistent with what the NRA teaches:

Rule #1: Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.
This is, effectively a re-wording of Jeff's #2 rule.

I see Jeff's #4 rule winds up being a secondary supplement to this one. It falls under the "Are you sure?" clause. If you don't know what you are going to shoot at and what's beyond it, you can't know if the direction is safe.

Rule #2: Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on the target.
This is Jeff's rule #3

Rule#3: Keep the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.
Always treating a gun like it was loaded until proven otherwise is definitely falls into the "are you sure you are complying with this rule?" coverage.

I personally use a "5 second rule" when considering a gun unloaded. Specifically, if it has been more than 5 seconds since I verified that the chamber is empty, It goes back to getting the "it's loaded" treatment. On a side note I also get a certain sense of sadistic pleasure busting long-time shooters on this by passing them guns with snap-caps in the chamber.

This is not to discount Jeff's set of rules. His #1 rule spent upwards of 50 years in the #1 slot on the "Ten Commandments Of Gun Safety". His other three show up on that list in various locations depending on which one you look at.

The fact is this:
The NRA simplified it within the past 15 years or so just to make it quicker for novices to memorize. All the other rules can be covered in the first three by always asking the question: "Are you sure you're following them?"

From www.thegunzone.com
View attachment 14204

Actually you need to update your time line. Jeff Coopers 4 rules are a simplification of those rules put out by the NRA originally and others. Dean Speir has a page explaining the evaluation of these rules on his gunzone site.

As for operators in the field are a different breed for sure. However most will tell you these rules are follower for the most part. However go watch any of our elite units of the military and you will see these rules are followed during training. I have personally seen training that can only be done by men who have spent lots of time together both in the field and out. They run like a machine and while they get close they don't as a rule violate the general rules. Do they get close HELL YES. I have seen guys in a hoot house that operate so smooth together they where taking out bg's ( targets ) with muzzles that seemed to be touching each other based on your viewing angle. This is what they do. I have meet a quite few of these guys and they while appearing to lax when in a drill with there teammates are quite the opposite when in the company of any shooter they do not know in this way and are VERY VERY safe.

As for the memorizing the rules I am a bit stricter on this then other may be however having seen the difference and results of not following such a simple list I feel it is a list worth learning.

So again argue disagree or simply dispute. The rules are the safe way to go.

If nothing else those who do not obey these rules in the end make all firearms owners look bad. You guys in Mass how many "accidental shootings" did they cite to restrict your access to firearms. How often do the cite safety as the reason for the new law? If we all follow these rules we will be safer that is a fact plus it woudl greatly reduce the bad press we get when someone does not follow them. Guys I don't know how else to say it. The rules are accepted by every firearms organization in one way or another. The rules are there for all of us both to keep us safe and keep others safe.

I will leave you with this. Would you rather your kids be out with other kids who have been taught these simple rules and came across a firearm? Or would you rather say these rules are stupid and let it go the other way. Then ask yourself this if I think this is a good idea for my kids ( I sure do ) then why is it not for me? I have traveled all over the USA and a few places overseas to train here and there ( this is me and my daughters yearly vacation ) and without fail these rules or a variation of them is used. I have seen more then one person asked to leave for repeated sweeping of a group or single person. I have only even seen one person removed on the first violation but it was a bad one where a person was injured.

Honestly I don't see why anyone would have any problem with these rules. they do nothing but keep you safe and those around you.

 

[snowjoker]

I don't think anyone that has posted so far has a problem with these rules...I think they may have a problem with the way you (as a relative newcomer) are preaching them.

There MAY be a handful of people on this forum that do not know these rules (or some form of them) by heart.

I think you need to look back at not so much what you posted but how you said it and see why folk may have taken an aggressive stance to your post. People in general (Especially people on here) do not like to be talked down to or told what to do. Perhaps if you had not been so "high and mighty" in your post you would have gotten a better response...

 

[Supermoto]

Guns have and do go off...I have a BB gun in my safe with a sear that is worn down enough that it won't stay cocked, and will discharge simply by completing the cocking action of the lever.

It only shows that you are as smart as your grandfather about keeping your firearms in good shape, if your gun is broken, get it fixed

I have personally operated that shotgun in question and can say with a great degree of certainty, the safety on that gun engages and disengages with remarkable ease. It is downright loose. I could also see it being propped up against the seat of a pickup truck, falling over in the direction of the driver thanks to a pothole, and then something else on the floor finding its way onto the trigger at exactly the wrong time.

And this only proves that the Stupid branch will only bend so far before it snaps and smacks you in the face

 

[italianppf2]

Wash your hands/face after shooting or reloading with cold water and soap
Brush your teeth before going to bed.

Anytime I take someone shooting I tell them to wash their hands before leaving the club. I usually shoot reloads, which can be messy.
Now brushing your teeth.....that's a different story!

 

[cekim]

Anytime I take someone shooting I tell them to wash their hands before leaving the club. I usually shoot reloads, which can be messy.
Now brushing your teeth.....that's a different story!

No, done right brushing your teeth can get pretty messy too...

 

[cekim]

+1

There are Cooper's rules and then there are big boys' rules.

Travis, you were doing good with your first post. Then you went full retard lecturing us like we are schoolchildren.

This...

Do whatever you need to do not to shoot anyone, not get shot and certainly not allow anyone to come to harm from your firearm unless that's your exact intention (and you have a good reason for that).

 

[travis]

That sir could be the case. I had no intention of preaching nor do I think I am high and mighty. I was trying to explain the rules as in other posts people had commented what is #4 ect.

If I came off in a manner that was offensive to anyone that was not my intention and I apologize for that.

 

[jasons]

I was trying to explain the rules as in other posts people had commented what is #4 ect.

As an aside, Cooper's 4th rule isn't necessarily THE fourth rule. Ask a boot Marine what the fourth safety rule is and you will get a very different answer.

 

[ochmude]

As an aside, Cooper's 4th rule isn't necessarily THE fourth rule. Ask a boot Marine what the fourth safety rule is and you will get a very different answer.

SIR, THIS RECRUIT'S 4TH WEAPON SAFETY RULE IS...KEEP THE WEAPON ON SAFE UNTIL YOU INTEND TO FIRE, SIR!!!!!!

 

[jasons]

SIR, THIS RECRUIT'S 4TH WEAPON SAFETY RULE IS...KEEP THE WEAPON ON SAFE UNTIL YOU INTEND TO FIRE, SIR!!!!!!

Good job recruit, now go report to my quaterdeck for being a goddamn smartass.

 

[cekim]

SIR, THIS RECRUIT'S 4TH WEAPON SAFETY RULE IS...KEEP THE WEAPON ON SAFE UNTIL YOU INTEND TO FIRE, SIR!!!!!!

 

[DickWanner]

I always tell my students that it's okay for you to point a gun at yourself just not other people

 

[Jose]

The is a bad FUDD rule.

+1

 

[Brian5582]

I don't even understand the point of this. I don't see it ending well.

 

[Jose]

I'm getting pretty G-D tired of being lectured about safety and about what I should or shouldn't do to keep from making gun owners "look bad", particularly by freaking strangers.

Knock it the F off already.

 

[cekim]

I don't even understand the point of this. I don't see it ending well.

People! The Earth is round... F=MA! Objects in motion tend to stay in motion. Objects at rest tend to stay at rest. E=MC^2. If there is lower supply or more demand, price will generally go up...

I cannot stress how important it is for everyone to know these things!

 

[n1zfg]

It only shows that you are as smart as your grandfather about keeping your firearms in good shape, if your gun is broken, get it fixed


And this only proves that the Stupid branch will only bend so far before it snaps and smacks you in the face

The BB gun still exists, in its broken state because I haven't scored (or had fabricated) the parts to repair it, nor do I have the heart to destroy it.
The shotgun still exists in its state for similar reasons. Until such time that they get the TLC they deserve, they have been, and will continue to remain show pieces only.

Of course, you being perfect operator can immediately tell, just by looking at it, whether or not a gun is in perfect working order or has all the modern safety features available, and would never be found anywhere anything less than that.


And this discussion shows that you're arrogant enough to still not to get why rule #3 exists, even with real life examples.


Okay, so let me argue this using another track.

Rule #3, keeping the firearm unloaded until ready for use, could technically be considered redundant. Of course, when dealing with life safety, single redundancy is considered an absolute minimum for good safety practice. Cops often CC a backup gun. Skydivers will jump with a reserve chute, packed by a certified rigger.

Double redundancy is often the general standard. That's why there is an emergency brake on your car, and it's actually the second redundancy. The first is built into the primary braking system. The master cylinder has two chambers and that the front and back systems are for the most part independent. That way, if a brake line, or a wheel cylinder seal (etc) lets go, you will still have enough braking system left to stop the car.

 

[Twigg]

 

[Pilgrim]

going...going....gone