Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue

[JimConway]

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm

This a very interesting piece written by someone that has viewed and participated in many autopsies.
It is not a scientific analysis but rather was listing of what was observed.

 

[Darkwood Arms]

Interesting read. It seems that with whatever caliber we are biased toward, we can find documentation to back up our ideas. He says slow and heavy is the way to go and then says the .357 mag. is the king of the streets. ?? I recently read another in depth write up by a professional in the medical examiners field who too commented on many of the subjects who were killed by bullets. His conclusion was the opposite of this writers. This man used to only carry a .45 and after seeing many gunshot victims, he now carry's a high capacity 9mm. He believes it may take many shots to stop an armed assailant. Go figure.

I read a report of a police shooting where the officer had a gun battle with a suspect who the officer shot 17 times with his .40 sidearm before the suspect ceased his actions. The suspect had no drugs in his system. I went to a pistol training seminar where the SWAT officer instructor told of a shooting where an officer shot a suspect 6 times center of mass with his .357. The suspect then fired a single shot at the officer who was "bladed" to the suspect in a weaver stance and the suspects single 9mm round entered the officers underarm area where the vest does not cover, and killed the officer. The "suspect" is still alive and rotting in jail.

I am not convinced that there is such a big difference in stopping power among the popular handgun calibers from 9mm to .45. Most "experts" will tell you all handguns are poor manstoppers. In a recent article I read, the statistic is that more than 80% of people shot with handguns survive if they get medical attention in a timely manor. Some experts will tell you that handgun velocity bullets just poke holes in people unlike rifle rounds that rely on much higher velocity to do their damage. If this is true, and I suspect it is, then it seems to make sense that we need a cartridge that has adequate penetration on people and perhaps intermediate barriers, is accurate and manageable to shoot , and allows us to have a sufficient supply of ammunition on our person when we need it most.

YMMV

 

[P-14]

This man used to only carry a .45 and after seeing many gunshot victims, he now carry's a high capacity 9mm. He believes it may take many shots to stop an armed assailant. Go figure.

Why not carry a high capacity .45 and be in a win-win situation?

 

[Joe G]

I think this is a dupe from a while back. The link in the OP points to a page whose contents are a thread taken from another forum. I wish I could find the original NES thread, as it had a pointer to the forum where the article first appeared. It was much more apparent which where the authors findings, other readers questions, and the author's responses to those questions. Can't find the NES thread, and a Google search can't find the original forum where it was posted. I must be doing something wrong.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Joe, I think that you are right.

Might have been on DefensiveCarry.com?

 

[JimConway]

This thead was taken from www.gunthorp.com. I believe that it originated on one of the Smith & Wesson forums.
This is a subject with MUCH controversy and none of the experts agree, except in the general ranking of calibers.
Generally, these experts can be divided into two groups. Those that are called the Morgue Monsters and the Gelatin Junkies.
I will let the readers figure out which is which.
The mesage in this thread is very simple. He has seen more 9mm and .380s that fragmented and deflected than any of the .45s that he observed.
He also noted that when 9mm or.380 is used there are usually more of them.

For me, the message is the same one that I was taught at Gunsite.
Use the largest caliber that you can control and shoot well.

Stay safe

 

[Darkwood Arms]

Reading this guys story through a second time raises a number of questions in regard to this guy credibility and thought process. He likes the "big and slow .40 and .45". Well the .40 is not all that slow, and big compared to what? (The 9mm is .355" diameter, the .40 is well, .400") Does forty five thousands of an inch in diameter make the difference between a man stopping shot or not? For comparison, One sixteenth of an inch is sixty two and a half thousandths of an inch. ???

I'm not convinced that the cartridges mentioned here have enough energy to "dump" into a person to make any difference either, as far as causing incapacitation. This is from an FBI report.

Psychological factors such as energy deposit, momentum transfer, size of temporary cavity or calculations such as the RII are irrelevant or erroneous. The impact of the bullet upon the body is no more than the recoil of the weapon. The ratio of bullet mass to target mass is too extreme.

The often referred to "knock-down power" implies the ability of a bullet to move its target. This is nothing more than momentum of the bullet. It is the transfer of momentum that will cause a target to move in response to the blow received. "Isaac Newton proved this to be the case mathematically in the 17th Century, and Benjamin Robins verified it experimentally through the invention and use of the ballistic pendulum to determine muzzle velocity by measurement of the pendulum motion."29

Goddard amply proves the fallacy of "knock-down power" by calculating the heights (and resultant velocities) from which a one pound weight and a ten pound weight must be dropped to equal the momentum of 9mm and .45ACP projectiles at muzzle velocities, respectively. The results are revealing. In order to equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped from a height of 5.96 feet, achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45ACP bullet, the one pound weight needs a velocity of 27.1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 11.4 feet. A ten pound weight equals the impact of a 9mm bullet when dropped from a height of 0.72 inches (velocity attained is 1.96 fps), and equals the impact of a .45 when dropped from 1.37 inches (achieving a velocity of 2.71 fps).30

A bullet impact equal to a 10 lb. weight being dropped on you from 1.37 inches doesn't sound like knockdown power to me.

And the comment of a 9mm deflecting off a BG's sternum where the .45 would just punch through. I just shot some .45's and 9mm at a 6x6 piece of pt at the range. There were some interesting results. I had an IDPA target set up behind the 6x6 post to simulate cover for the target. I shot from a distance of 20". I fired 3 factory 230 grain hardball rounds at the post and 2 penetrated and one did not. Next I fired 3 winchester white box 115 gr. 9mm rounds at the post and got the same results. 2 passed through and one lodged in the wood ironically stopped by the .45 slug that didn't pass through. Lastly, I fired 3 of my handloaded 121 gr. Montana Gold 9mm's running at around 1100 fps and all three went through. So much for 9mm's bouncing off peoples sternums.

Also his continual comments about the effectiveness of the .357 (being a high velocity smaller caliber round) makes me wonder why he would continue to praise the opposite type of cartridge (ie: big and slow)?? I guess you can believe whatever you want.

Don't stop thinking.

 

[strangenh]

I think taking this sort of thing as gospel on what to carry misses the mark somewhat.

What a coroner sees is what kills a man.

What one needs in a defensive round is what stops an attack.

They are often enough not the same. The coroner may see the fellow after you shoot him and he beats you to death and feeds you your shoes... then dies.

 

[GSG]

I read a report of a police shooting where the officer had a gun battle with a suspect who the officer shot 17 times with his .40 sidearm before the suspect ceased his actions. The suspect had no drugs in his system.

That was the Peter Soulis incident. Soulis also had to shoot back and reload after taking several hits himself fired from the felon's gun. There's a cop in Mass. who had a very similar shooting to Soulis's with the same caliber, and he scored more COM hits than Soulis that still failed to stop the felon.

I went to a pistol training seminar where the SWAT officer instructor told of a shooting where an officer shot a suspect 6 times center of mass with his .357. The suspect then fired a single shot at the officer who was "bladed" to the suspect in a weaver stance and the suspects single 9mm round entered the officers underarm area where the vest does not cover, and killed the officer. The "suspect" is still alive and rotting in jail.

That sounds like the shooting death of Trooper Mark Coates. The suspect wasn't stopped, although he was shot 5 times by rounds fired from the Trooper's .357 revolver (there's some debate as to what caliber he was shot with; both sides agree that Trooper Coates duty load was Winchester Silvertips, but some say it was .357, others says it was .38 +p). The Trooper was shot, stopped and killed when a .22 LR round fired from an NAA mini revolver pierced his heart. IMO Coates was killed in the gunfight because he needed to reload his extremely low capacity antiquated service weapon which hasn't been suitable for duty use since sometime in the 1920's, but he got into the gunfight in the first place because he made other mistakes in the initial encounter.

Another interesting detail to note, the lawfully armed passerby who stopped to offer help to the fallen trooper was almost shot in the confusion by the responding backup officers; there's a lesson in that video for LTC holders if you ask me. A section of 95 in South Carolina is dedicated to the fallen trooper.

What a coroner sees is what kills a man.

What one needs in a defensive round is what stops an attack.

+1.

 

[In God We Trust]

Why not carry a high capacity .45 and be in a win-win situation?

You stole my thunder. Glock 21!!

 

[Powerslide]

Also his continual comments about the effectiveness of the .357 (being a high velocity smaller caliber round) makes me wonder why he would continue to praise the opposite type of cartridge (ie: big and slow)?? I guess you can believe whatever you want.

I was thinking the same thing.

What a coroner sees is what kills a man.

Bingo. He doesn't see the survivors of gunshots. In the absence of data, you can't preclude the possibility that more people survive a gun fight against someone shooting .45 rounds at them vs someone shooting 9mm at them. I'm not saying that's the case, but you cannot eliminate that possibility based on coroner data alone.

 

[KMaurer]

The basic problem with this approach is that it totally fails to look at the effectiveness of any given round. What it's really seeing is the popularity of various rounds and platforms. If more people are using large capacity 9mm guns and fewer .45ACP guns, then the bodies are going to reflect that fact, not whether being shot with one round or the other is more likely to put you in the morgue. To push it to the extreme, if some place were to allow anybody to carry handguns smaller than .32 caliber, while banning everything larger, pretty soon you'd convince yourself that the .22lr is the greatest man-stopper of all time.

Engineers and physicists tend to get all caught up in studies of momentum and kinetic energy, which completely misses the point. Getting hit with a 250 grain .44 magnum at 1500 fps delivers the same momentum as a 16 pound bowling ball dropped from a little over 2 inches. The kinetic energy is roughly the same as being hit by a 2000 car going a skosh over 4mph. Obviously neither one of those is going to kill many people.

The reality is that neither momentum or kinetic energy or TKO or any other index accurately reflects the ability of a round to stop or kill. Bullets do that by accomplishing one of three things: (1) scrambling the brain, (2) preventing the brain from communicating with critical body parts, or (3) preventing blood from reaching the brain. Both (1) and (3) depend on only moderate penetration combined with precise shot placement, making them the exceptional case. Most of those bodies are in refrigerated drawers because of (3). That means either destroying the pump (again, dependent on precise shot placement and moderate penetration) or making holes big enough and deep enough to allow a lot of blood to leak out. Any round that does that effectively will work. Bigger holes and deeper holes are of course desirable, but the ability to put those holes where there are a lot of big pipes to leak is even more so.

Ken

 

[JimConway]

You guys are all hung up in your favorite calibers and are not reading carefully
He mentions the .357 and the 9mm in two different times spans.
Remember that there was a time when wheel guns were all that anyone had or carried, and thus the .357.
Now all you see are semiautomatics with the most common being the 9mm

My advice is to read, think and then, and only then, write

 

[oneswithfunes]

My advice is to read, think and then, and only then, write

Riddle me this. How is he differentiating between 9mm,380,38 and 357 mag? Was that mag or Sig? I read that thread years back and have read it again. It is simply the views of one person. No new data and certainly not presented in any reasonable way to support a thesis if he has one.

 

[GSG]

To push it to the extreme, if some place were to allow anybody to carry handguns smaller than .32 caliber, while banning everything larger, pretty soon you'd convince yourself that the .22lr is the greatest man-stopper of all time.

Good point. I know that Italy, Brazil, Mexico and other places don't let people have "military calibers" or some BS like that. They might turn up some interesting shooting statistics. Come to think of it, I think the Austrian police using their 115 grain FMJ duty load in 9mm turn up some pretty interesting shooting statistics.

How is he differentiating between 9mm,380,38 and 357 mag? Was that mag or Sig?

Another great point. Is he photographing the projectiles & weighing them to figure out caliber and grain weight, or guessing based on police reports or the size of bulletholes in stretchy flesh?

 

[JimConway]

Riddle me this. How is he differentiating between 9mm,380,38 and 357 mag? Was that mag or Sig? I read that thread years back and have read it again. It is simply the views of one person. No new data and certainly not presented in any reasonable way to support a thesis if he has one.

The article says numerous time that these are just observations.
There is no theme