Tactical vest for my son

[richc]

Earlier today we visited Maine Military Surplus in Maine. Great store BTW! Lots of milsurp ammo and evil rifles, plus lots of army/navy store type of merchandise.

My son found a tactical vest he really liked. You know the type made of camo material and lots of pockets and places to hold stuff. He wanted to borrow some cash to buy it. He is 16 and teaches a number of music students every week. He does pretty well for himself.

So I agree to loan him the money but engage him in a discussion of where and how he might use it. He'd wear it to the range obviously, 'cause it would look cool and be useful. Then he talks about wearing it around town.

That is where I get wiggy. I'm just thinking to myself what if he leaves a casing or a full cartridge or two or magazine in one of those many pockets by accident. God forbid he wears the thing to school and they find something. They have a zero tolerance policy. Or if LE grab his group of kids some day for any reason and they find a cartridge in his pocket.

I start to get really wiggy. I offer to loan him the money if he agrees only to wear it to the range. He does not get it, and gets kinda pissed off at me. And he declines to purchase the tactical vest.

So... do y'all agree or disagree? Was I right or wrong? Any LE out there... what would you do if you found a kid in the suburbs with a cartridge in his pocket?

I could see this going horribly wrong under worst case scenario. If he and I did not participate in shooting I would not care as he probably would never end up with something "evil" in one of his pockets. But we do...

Was I over the top or not?

Thanks,

Rich

 

[Ultimate]

I agree with your decision. Anything firearms related in this state is a zero tolerance policy, unfortunately. In my opinion, the situations you described would not go over well for anyone, at any time.

 

[wolf223]

Was I over the top or not?

not at all. those "assault" vests have different names.

it sounds like it was an LBV - aka load bearing vest

or

an FLC - aka Fighting Load Carrier.

i'll snap a pic of mine next week (remind me) from work and e-mail it to you.

now, IMO, a 16 year old has no business having one - period. it's just the times, lock downs, mass panic ect...

now, if dad owns one and loans it to jr. to use at the range... i guess that's OK.

i think it may be time for a "mall ninja" chat with the apprentice too.

 

[Jamie]

Have him read this and explain to him that "cool" is very different in other peoples eyes, particularly the sheeple and LEO.

 

[matt]

It would be one thing to out your son as being gay, but as a mall ninja? Wow, that's harsh...

 

[Tortuga]

Good call. I know it's hard to sell on a 16yo boy, but that's one area it's best to be subtle. What may help is to have a talk about "quiet professionals". When's the last time you saw a SPECWAR bubba wear his deuce gear out in town?
But, like I said before, that's hard to explain to someone in the age group that uses Axe body spray a strategic weapon. lol

 

[z0mbi]

I remember walking around my neighborhood in full Vietnam webgear and greens, with my M-16 look-a-like Crossman airgun, a giant RAMBO style survival knife on my leg, and an actual empty LAW tube strapped to my backpack. When I was like 10.

Nobody called the Cops on me, but now that I think about it I probably looked a bit silly.

 

[wolf223]

I remember walking around my neighborhood in full Vietnam webgear and greens, with my M-16 look-a-like Crossman airgun, a giant RAMBO style survival knife on my leg, and an actual empty LAW tube strapped to my backpack. When I was like 10.

Nobody called the Cops on me, but now that I think about it I probably looked a bit silly.

yup. i'm an 80's child. so we had those black cap guns w/o the red thingie and we used to play cops and robbers, dirty harry ect...

nowdays, you can't do that. it is sad, but it's the present times.

 

[Skeet732]

NBo you did the right thing. You are a "DAD" like me, your job is to protect your son as much as possible from dumb mistakes made by him and/or his friends. When I was in high school 30 some years ago, my buddy brought his 12 gauge to school during duck season. Coaches stored the gun till he went huntng. That wouldn't be allowed today. Protect your son!

 

[Ripach]

PM inbound.

 

[Spanz]

Well, in MA you might have some trouble. For instance, he is driving his car, gets pulled over for something, officer sees the tactical vest, decides to be a prick and call it probably cause, searches car, finds a spent .22 cartridge case, hauls him in for possessing components...start of a bad day.

There are so many things that they can find and hassle him for. I got a really small bottle scratch paint for my kids car once and threw it into the glove compartment in case he ever wanted to clean up some of the scratches. The type with the brush built into the handle that you get at an auto parts store. He told me later that a cop found it and was grilling him for huffing paint! I guess the fact that the color matched his car body escaped his eagle eye!

There are all sorts of rules on knife length, blade type, etc., especially in some towns like Worcester.

And of course there is always the dreaded DUI. If a kid tests positive for ANY alcohol when driving, he is hauled in for DUI. There is no minimum blood alcohol limit for teens. And a MA DUI really screws up his future as far as getting an LTC.

I would advise caution.

There is a thread from a month ago about an unfortunate CT kid who was passing thru to Maine, got pulled over, officer saw a spent .50 cartridge DRILLED OUT to be a necklace, and used that as PC to search the car. Kid ends up in jail.

 

[RKG]

I agree.

In years past, I had a couple of miscellaneous gear bags that might be used as range bags one day, tool bags another day, and who knows what on special occasions.

Today, range bags are used only for range work and non-shooting bags are never pressed into temporary range service. Sad, but that's the way it is, and you did the right thing.

 

[wolf223]

DUH...

fighting load carrier


load bearing vest


molle

black hawk or stomp

i'm taking a stab it was one of these....

 

[center442]

richc, I'm with you on this one. The problem is, your advice was coming from an older and more mature level. When you're a teenager there are only three considerations regarding stuff like this:

1) Is this cool?

2) Will my friends think it's cool?

3) Will it help me get laid?

Teenagers don't understand that just because you can do something doesn't mean it's wise to do it. If all teenagers realized this there wouldn't be nearly as many YouTube videos!

Stand by your decision.

 

[Spanz]

BTW, does your kid have his fid card yet? Having the FID card short-circuits all that bs about spend cartridges, etc.

 

[richc]

BTW, does your kid have his fid card yet? Having the FID card short-circuits all that bs about spend cartridges, etc.

FID application was submitted about six weeks ago. He should have it soon.

An FID card would not likely protect him if he wore it to school. They have a zero tolerance policy.

And... thinking out loud... would an FID card allow a 16 year old to possess ammo? I know he can't buy ammunition at that age.

Thanks,

Rich

 

[richc]

Thank you all for your opinions. And it is comforting to know that I'm not alone in my thinking.

We all want to be good parents... and sometimes that means saying no. I don't mind saying no, I just want to do so properly. And I do stress over some of these situations.

I was talking with my son in the car this afternoon. He was telling me about a party with a bunch of high school students in an adjacent town. A few kids he knows attended. There are pics online of this party... including the kids and booze... and what is in the background of the pics but glass gun display cases with rifles and shotguns visible. Great combination... drunken teenagers without parental oversight and firearms in the room.

I don't know if the guns had locks on them or not. But I am of the opinion that glass cases are not particularly secure. Someone is cruising for a bruising here. If a school official saw this pics I suspect there would be hell to pay.

Yup... we need to worry about our kids. At that age we all were way smarter than our parents and figured we were invincible. That is a dangerous combination.

Rich

 

[Flyer007]

Wow Rich....you got hit with 2 heavy modern parental issues (vest and internet)

Great job on both!!! Vest for range, paintball/airsoft, or Halloween

Internet.....got to constantly remind them about how stupid some internet posting can be. I like to remind them that once it's out there....it's out there forever...how would you like your future kids see those pics?

 

[Hiltonizer]

Not to far removed from his age bracket (almost 25), I agree with others in sayinh you did the right thing and did it correctly.

My dad to the contrary, would have just given me a solid backhand at such a notion.

Good on you!

 

[NOVA]

richc, I'm with you on this one. The problem is, your advice was coming from an older and more mature level. When you're a teenager there are only three considerations regarding stuff like this:

1) Is this cool?

2) Will my friends think it's cool?

3) Will it help me get laid?

Teenagers don't understand that just because you can do something doesn't mean it's wise to do it. If all teenagers realized this there wouldn't be nearly as many YouTube videos!

Stand by your decision.

Airsoft'ers wear tactical vests all the time and no one thinks thier cool, and they never get laid. They're on the same level or nerdyness as world of warcraft nerds.

 

[jerryrigger]

You did the right thing. I'm in college now, have my LTC, and am in the Army, and still I would not wear one of those things in public-it just raises too many questions. Granted legally I would be past most of the problems you described, none of it is worth the hassle, and the fact that he is not legally past most of them could be a problem in the wrong situation. I remember when I was younger and didn't understand why my mother wouldn't let me buy a shoulder holster at an army-navy store when I was about 10 so I could carry my toy pistol around without it falling out of my pocket while I rode my bike. When I look back on it, it was definitely the right decision...she was right about a lot of things.

Back to reality though, if a cop with a bad attitude towards guns happened to pull a 16 year old over and saw a tac vest, he could at least be in for a long stop. If he wore it in the wrong place, especially in this state, it could rub the wrong person the wrong way, and cause any number of ridiculous problems. Hell, I even get some weird looks if I have a U.S. Army uniform on around campus!

On anything that has to do with weapons or shooting, in this state (especially) or any other, you have to go with the cautious choice, because there is so much that can go wrong and have lasting implications. This is true no matter what your age, but at 16, with an FID in the works and probably an LTC down the road, you have to be really cautious with all your decisions, be they gun related or anything else. Your decision was smart because everyone makes mistakes, but if you have a single shell in your vest when you can't legally purchase ammo, that is a mistake that could cause a lot of problems. If he doesn't understand that today, from recent experience, he will soon enough!

 

[packingungal]

If you are gong to buy one for him, you will have to extend the trust that goes with it. That is, YOUR trust. This doesn't mean you can't explain your concerns to him, but that once done, you must let it go.

You can never guarantee anyone will follow your advice. Remember, he is not YOU. His experiences will not be yours in life, and teaching him all your fears...well, he may look at all of that a different way. Your way is not the only way.

As parents we do have concerns - but it is based on thinking that we always know what is best, which is not always true for someone else, even our children. We can also drive both them and ourselves crazy with worry.

If you can't extend your concerns to him, and set the guidelines and have the trust...well, what next will you get concerned about, and just how many restrictions and controls will you drive yourself (and him) crazy with down the road?

 

[richc]

Hey packingungal,

Thanks for your reply. Your insights are clearly valid... where do we draw the line is the question?

As a parent we carry some level of veto power. Good parents use that power carefully. This is a time in their lives when they are exploring and learning. They are going to make mistakes... that is part of learning. My goal as a parent is to help keep the level of mistakes at a reasonable level, a level that will not having permanent consequences in his life.

I have two older daughters. From my experience the girls are much more mature at the same age. They tend to think things through and make better decisions. My middle daughter is in France at the moment. I don't worry about her. She has a level head and makes good decisions. She listens, and is very good at arguing her points of view. I find most boys can't or don't argue their points well, and just grunt and go do whatever the hell they want to do.

When I look at my son and his friends they tend to be much more impulsive. They just don't think sometimes. They think they are invincible. I could tell you stories. My oldest daughter's graduating class lost several kids to drunk driving... all boys. One of her friends was driving his car on an old country street at 80mph, lost control of his car and went through the windshield. He still suffers from cognitive and learning issues. Another kid cracked up his ATV in the woods and he also suffers from lots of brain function issues. These were all boys. There is a pattern here. Where do you draw the line???

I take these decisions very seriously. I want him to learn and explore, but at the same time I want him to be legally able to receive and LTC when he is of age. More importantly I want him alive and well.

That is one of the reasons I want him to have an FID now, so he understands the fragile nature of his rights in this state. He needs to start acting now like he has an LTC. To do otherwise jeopardizes his chances in the future. We all know it just takes one stupid youthful mistake to take away those rights for a lifetime.

As someone who grew up in the inner city I am just fortunate that I am able to get an LTC. Many of the guys I grew up with are either dead or in jail, and many had significant legal issues as kids. Funny thing is those that are still alive are mostly policemen or firemen. I escaped unscathed... thankfully.

So where do we draw the line? At what age do we just let'em go and make their own decisions?

Tough questions...

Rich

If you are gong to buy one for him, you will have to extend the trust that goes with it. That is, YOUR trust. This doesn't mean you can't explain your concerns to him, but that once done, you must let it go.

You can never guarantee anyone will follow your advice. Remember, he is not YOU. His experiences will not be yours in life, and teaching him all your fears...well, he may look at all of that a different way. Your way is not the only way.

As parents we do have concerns - but it is based on thinking that we always know what is best, which is not always true for someone else, even our children. We can also drive both them and ourselves crazy with worry.

If you can't extend your concerns to him, and set the guidelines and have the trust...well, what next will you get concerned about, and just how many restrictions and controls will you drive yourself (and him) crazy with down the road?

 

[Spanz]

I think going thru the FID application process could be a very good experience for him. He will see what questions get asked, etc. Later on in life, if he is looking for a security clearance for military or defense contractor or political office, a background check to become a teacher or pilot, etc, he will be very glad someone pointed out to him at an early age that this stuff follows him around for a long time to come.

Any parent that gets his kid thru puberty without jail time, that is a plus! Any parent that gets his kid thru puberty without even a trip to the courthouse, that is a triple plus. Too many bad influences out there nowadays.

 

[center442]

>Snip<

I have two older daughters. From my experience the girls are much more mature at the same age. They tend to think things through and make better decisions.

>Snip<

When I look at my son and his friends they tend to be much more impulsive. They just don't think sometimes. They think they are invincible. I could tell you stories.

>Snip<

So where do we draw the line? At what age do we just let'em go and make their own decisions?

Tough questions...

Rich

Rich, this is what I was getting at in my earlier comments. Teenage boys are basically hormones with feet. We have two daughters and a son and I couldn't agree more with your comments about girls and boys.

We have obligations as good parents to try to share our experience with them. Having said that, we also have to be ready to step back and let them make their own mistakes. Hopefully, those mistakes won't be too painful. Some of those mistakes can be life-altering - or even life-ending. The problem we face as parents is knowing where to draw that line. I've been practicing parenthood for almost 29 years and I'm still trying to get it right.

You were being reasonable about the vest. You didn't say outright he couldn't have one, you were just making some common sense rules for its use. Common sense rules apply to cars, power tools, alcohol, or guns for that matter. All have a proper time, place, and method for their use. Experience dictates that. Experience is what teenagers don't have.

That's why God made good parents, isn't it?

 

[richc]

Experience is what teenagers don't have.

Not only don't they have experience, they don't see any value in it. They just don't have enough life experience to "get it".

Thinking out loud... my toaster came with better instructions than my kids...

Parenting is trial and error... and it is different with each kid...



Rich

p.s. And I would not trade the parenting experience for anything. It is by far the most difficult and rewarding experience of my life.

 

[center442]

Not only don't they have experience, they don't see any value in it. They just don't have enough life experience to "get it".

Thinking out loud... my toaster came with better instructions than my kids...

Parenting is trial and error... and it is different with each kid...



Rich

p.s. And I would not trade the parenting experience for anything. It is by far the most difficult and rewarding experience of my life.

Yep, very true. The real conundrum is that they need experience to learn the value of experience. One of the most satisfying things that a parent can hear is when one of their kids says "Hey, remember when you told me about (insert situation here)? Well, you were right." The real big step is when they actually solicit advice from you. It shows they're reflecting on the possible consequences of their actions before they make those choices.

I have to say, though, that the process for acquiring the kids was a lot more fun than the process for acquiring the toasters!

 

[Skeet732]

Not only don't they have experience, they don't see any value in it. They just don't have enough life experience to "get it".

Thinking out loud... my toaster came with better instructions than my kids...

Parenting is trial and error... and it is different with each kid...



Rich

p.s. And I would not trade the parenting experience for anything. It is by far the most difficult and rewarding experience of my life.

Amen brother, Amen.

 

[TonyDedo]

Rich, are you more concerned that the vest would draw undue attention to your son, or are you concerned that he'd do something stupid like walk around with ammo in his pockets?

If it's the former, I have to side with your son. I could understand how your son would think you're being paranoid and unreasonable. A cop or teacher can't walk up to him and say, "Hey, you're wearing a military vest, let me see what's in your pockets." I don't understand why he would want to wear such a thing (when I was 16 I wouldn't have been caught dead wearing a tac vest around in public), but if that's what floats his boat, so be it. And if you're right and he does draw attention to himself, well he's just going to have to learn that the hard way, and when he complains you can say "I told you so."

On the other hand, if it's the latter I think you have much more serious problems than what your son is wearing. If you think he's careless enough to walk around with ammo in his pockets wearing a tac vest, what makes you think he's not going to make the same mistake without one? A brass cartridge or handful of forgotten ammo can fall out of the pocket of a windbreaker just as easily as it could a tac vest.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

As 28 year old with 20 month old twin boys, these questions and the world we live in ( and what it will become ) scare me more than I could have EVER imagined! All ready many sleepless nights have been had worrying.........

I'n my opinion, rest assured. The fact that you are a part of your child's life, care enough to sometimes say "no" , and have enough courage to ask a bunch of strangers ( well, I'm sure not all strangers ) if you made the right decision speaks a great amount about you.........