Steyr AUG / MSAR not MA legal?

[glide]

According to text from the MA AWB, the Steyr AUG and any clones are banned by name. Dealers around here sell MSARs. Are they legal or not (assuming they are in post-ban config).

: “Assault weapon”, shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70); (iv) Colt AR-15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12"

 

[vellnueve]

They are legal. And so are the preban AUGs.

Configuration as an AW for post-94 rifles is the issue, not the design itself.

 

[glide]

They are legal. And so are the preban AUGs.

Configuration as an AW for post-94 rifles is the issue, not the design itself.

But isn't the law saying (paraphrasing) 'Possession of any rifle/clone named here is flat out NOT allowed AND if you have a rifle that is not named, it cannot have XYZ features.'?

That's how I'm reading it.

 

[securityboy]

But isn't the law saying (paraphrasing) 'Possession of any rifle/clone named here is flat out NOT allowed...

exactly you cant own a firearm called an "AUG" made after 94, but a MSAR or USR is not called a AUG, nor are they clones of such, because AUG's have flash-hiders, etc whereas they do not...don't over think it...

 

[vellnueve]

But isn't the law saying (paraphrasing) 'Possession of any rifle/clone named here is flat out NOT allowed AND if you have a rifle that is not named, it cannot have XYZ features.'?

That's how I'm reading it.

You're reading it wrong - securityboy has it nailed.

 

[glide]

exactly you cant own a firearm called an "AUG" made after 94, but a MSAR or USG is not called a AUG, nor are they clones of such, because AUG's have flash-hiders, etc whereas they do not...don't over think it...

The ban expired for 99% of the country, all MSARS are made post-ban, and they are marketed as AUG clones. They have flash hiders, and certain generations even accept AUG mags.

If the ban is still in effect in MA, how does this not explicitly fall under it? Does simply removing the flash hider no longer make it a 'copy or duplicate'?

 

[securityboy]

The ban expired for 99% of the country, all MSARS are made post-ban, and they are marketed as AUG clones. They have flash hiders, and certain generations even accept AUG mags.

If the ban is still in effect in MA, how does this not explicitly fall under it? Does simply removing the flash hider no longer make it a 'copy or duplicate'?

OK please I appologize in advance I will try to phrase this in the least disrespectful way I can... but REALLY???
AUG "style" firearms aren't special(er) than any other gun, like say AR "style" guns...you are/were selling an S&W AR "style" lower w/ pinned stock ( http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...5-Complete-Lower-with-Magpul-CTR-Pinned-Stock )
This is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT THAN THAT!

 

[vellnueve]

The ban expired for 99% of the country, all MSARS are made post-ban, and they are marketed as AUG clones. They have flash hiders, and certain generations even accept AUG mags.

If the ban is still in effect in MA, how does this not explicitly fall under it? Does simply removing the flash hider no longer make it a 'copy or duplicate'?

Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about.

The very fact that the USR was marketed in the US following the 1994 AWB should be proof enough for you.

 

[glide]

OK please I appologize in advance I will try to phrase this in the least disrespectful way I can... but REALLY???
AUG "style" firearms aren't special(er) than any other gun, like say AR "style" guns...you are/were selling an S&W AR "style" lower w/ pinned stock ( http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...5-Complete-Lower-with-Magpul-CTR-Pinned-Stock )
This is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT THAN THAT!

The ban doesn't mention 'AR-style' guns by name. It mentions 'Colt AR-15'. Is a S&W a 'copy or duplicate'? Maybe. That's what I'm getting at.

Let's use the Steyr Aug as an example. They make a post-ban, civilian model called the AUG-A3. I would argue it is copy of the original Steyr AUG. In the eyes of the law; when does the firearm cease to be a copy or duplicate? When the flash-hider/evil features are removed?

 

[glide]

Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about.

The very fact that the USR was marketed in the US following the 1994 AWB should be proof enough for you.

How is the fact that it was marketed in the US relevant to it being owned in MA with modifications?

 

[securityboy]

The ban doesn't mention 'AR-style' guns by name. It mentions 'Colt AR-15'. Is a S&W a 'copy or duplicate'? Maybe. That's what I'm getting at.

Let's use the Steyr Aug as an example. They make a post-ban, civilian model called the AUG-A3. I would argue it is copy of the original Steyr AUG. In the eyes of the law; when does the firearm cease to be a copy or duplicate? When the flash-hider/evil features are removed?

OK I will try ONE MORE TIME REAL SLOW...

I used "AR style" as an example, because clearly you had one, and this whole process/understanding it identical, whether you are talking: AK's; UZI's and Galil's; Ar70's; Colt AR-15's; FN/FAL's, FN/LAR's and FNC's; M-10's, M-11's, M-11/9's and M-12's; AUG's; TEC-9's, TEC-DC9's and TEC-22's. And honestly I don't understand how you could be selling a S&WMP15 w/ pinned stack and still not be able to follow this...But anyway...

The ban says COLT AR15 not "AR style" thats why you can by a "AR style" rifle made by COLT yesterday because it says Match Target on the side not AR15, and it does not have evil features. Its not a colt ar15 it is a colt match target rifle that happens to be "AR style"...

So despite the ban saying Steyr AUG, you can go out and by an "AUG style" firearm that is called a USR or MSAR also provided they don't fall under the AW catagory by evil feature count. However if the "politically correct" "AUG style" firearm does as you say, have AUG-A3 stamped on it, then I would say no you can't have that here in MA (I don't think the -A3 is a big enough name change). But again just go out and get EITHER a preban AUG or "politically correct" USR or MSAR...

How is the fact that it was marketed in the US relevant to it being owned in MA with modifications?

Because the WHOLE COUNTRY had the AW ban from 94-04, but new USR's were perfectly legal to sell.

If you still don't get it, I'm sorry, someone else will have to pick up where I left off, I think I need to go lay down for a little bit

 

[glide]

I don't know why you're getting angry, and if you don't feel like responding...feel free not to.

The reason I brought this up was because of a thread I was reading yesterday where some are adopting the position of 'once a banned rifle, always a banned rifle'. Regardless of any end-user modifications to make it 'MA legal'. So I was curious as to the legal definition of 'copy or duplicate'.

 

[securityboy]

I don't know why you're getting angry, and if you don't feel like responding...feel free not to..

Its not anger its agrivation. You ask a question, we answered, yet no matter how much info was supplied to you, you still apear not to "get it"...

So I was curious as to the legal definition of 'copy or duplicate'.

If that was your question why didn't you just ask it? (Instead you asked a question about "AUG style" firearms, which was answered in detail) However even so if this was your question, it was answered in Post #4 of this thread...

 

[Kevlar]

I'll give this a try...

1. Some guns were banned by name. A change in the model name changed the ban status.
2. Other guns were banned by the presence of "evil" features. Removing the evil features changed the ban status.

For example, per the former Federal ban (which MA adopted), the AR-15 was banned by name. But a XM-15, produced without the evil features, was not subject to the AWB. So, a change in name, cosmetic changes, and/or the absence of "evil" features precludes it from being a "copy or duplicate". Granted, it is substantially similar, but that's not what the law says.

ETA:

AWB advocates and opponents alike stated that the AWB allowed firearms manufacturers to make minor changes to make their affected firearms legal, and they both described the features affected by the ban as "cosmetic".[4][5] Due to this, some gun-rights groups nicknamed the legislation the "ugly gun law."

The law banned certain feature combinations that many firearms experts considered to be arbitrary. Manufacturers complied with the law by removing the banned features while leaving the core functionality of the weapons intact. For this, they were criticized as attempting to circumvent the spirit of the law by many gun control groups and even by then-president Bill Clinton. Pro-gun groups responded by pointing out that the manufacturers made and sold exactly what was permitted, and that they could not be held to any standard higher than the law itself.

For example, the AB-10 was a legal version of the TEC-9, with barrel threading and barrel shroud removed; the XM-15 was a legal AR-15 without barrel threading or a bayonet mounting lug; post-ban semi-automatic AK-47s were also sold without folding stocks or bayonet lugs, and with standard or "thumbhole" stocks instead of pistol grips.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

Make sense?

 

[glide]

I'll give this a try...

1. Some guns were banned by name. A change in the model name changed the ban status.
This is where I am foggy. I understand some guns were banned by name. 'copies' of the guns are also banned, I would assume, in the event someone were to make the same gun and just give it a new name/model number.

2. Other guns were banned by the presence of "evil" features. Removing the evil features changed the ban status.
I 100% understand this.

During the ban, the guns were shipped FROM the manufacturer in their 'ban-compliant' configuration. Now that the ban has sunset, guns are shipping from the factory in 'non compliant' form (from a MA perspective).

How does end-user modification make a 'named ban' gun, a 'copy of a named ban' gun, or one that originally shipped in 'non-compliant' form, 'ban compliant'?

 

[securityboy]

How does end-user modification make a 'named ban' gun, a 'copy of a named ban' gun, or one that originally shipped in 'non-compliant' form, 'ban compliant'?

For the what fourth time...

If it says on the gun:
AK
UZI
Galil
Ar70
Colt AR-15
FN/FAL
FN/LAR FNC
M-10
M-11
M-11/9
M-12
AUG
TEC-9
TEC-DC9
TEC-22's

AND it was made after Sept 1994, it can't be made "ban compliant" in Mass, as that firearm is banned by name.

If it was made after 94 and is not stamped (named) one of the above on it, all you have to worry about is the feature count.

 

[glide]

For the what fourth time...

If it says on the gun:
AK
UZI
Galil
Ar70
Colt AR-15
FN/FAL
FN/LAR FNC
M-10
M-11
M-11/9
M-12
AUG
TEC-9
TEC-DC9
TEC-22's

AND it was made after Sept 1994, it can't be made "ban compliant" in Mass, as that firearm is banned by name.

If it says anything else on it all you have to worry about is the feature count. - This is the part of your statement I am unclear on. Either you are not taking 'copies' into account or it's not relevant.

I appreciate what you are saying, but if the above statement is true; what is different about me having a gun that has one of those names stamped on it AND was made after 1994 Vs. a gun that is a 'copy' of one of those named guns AND was made after 1994?

 

[vellnueve]

Because they're not copies because they don't have the features.

Seriously, you're just being foolish now. Considering that the MA ban is an exact copy of the Federal ban and BATFE approved/allowed all those copies and duplicates for sale, you're seriously just looking for a reason to get rid of everyone's clones. Is your last name Coakley?

 

[PaulD]

For clarity's sake, say I have a brand new AUG A3 that is specifically labeled "Steyer AUG-A3" but said rifle has a pinned and welded muzzle brake and has no bayonet lug, that's legal in MA because it's not an assault weapon (per evil feature count). Is that correct?

 

[beaker]

I have an MSAR. All you have to do is replace the removable flash hider with a permanently attached compensator and you are compliant since it no longer has too many evil features.

The ban expired for 99% of the country, all MSARS are made post-ban, and they are marketed as AUG clones. They have flash hiders, and certain generations even accept AUG mags.

If the ban is still in effect in MA, how does this not explicitly fall under it? Does simply removing the flash hider no longer make it a 'copy or duplicate'?

 

[rkwjunior]

For clarity's sake, say I have a brand new AUG A3 that is specifically labeled "Steyer AUG-A3" but said rifle has a pinned and welded muzzle brake and has no bayonet lug, that's legal in MA because it's not an assault weapon (per evil feature count). Is that correct?

I would talk to Zero Hour and see what they say, not to say there word is the right word.

 

[rkwjunior]

"any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates " as it states in the law to me means absolutely everything post ban would be illegal, despite the feature count, and no matter what it says on the rifle. Looks like the LEO's have there work cutout!!!

 

[rkwjunior]

Why is the Steyr AUG the only rifle that is always in question about its post ban legality?? As long as it has the correct amount of features, what makes it any different than an Ar or AK??? Oh ya ..they forgot HK91, 93, and 94's,??? Those must be ok then!!! . The AK.. the law says (all models), pretty sure that covers every name possible?? No???
From what i can read it says nothing about names, they're using the names as examples of that gun, so whether it says "colt Ar15" or not, the word "duplicate" or "clone" covers it. Am i wrong on this??

 

[PaulD]

Why is the Steyr AUG the only rifle that is always in question about its post ban legality?? As long as it has the correct amount of features, what makes it any different than an Ar or AK??? Oh ya ..they forgot HK91, 93, and 94's,??? Those must be ok then!!! . The AK.. the law says (all models), pretty sure that covers every name possible?? No???
From what i can read it says nothing about names, they're using the names as examples of that gun, so whether it says "colt Ar15" or not, the word "duplicate" or "clone" covers it. Am i wrong on this??

The reason it's questioned is because, as with many laws, the language used is confusing unless read multiple times. I swear politicians do this as a jobs program for lawyers, but that's another story. It's further confused by some of the posts in this thread (vellnueve: "They are legal. And so are the preban AUGs. Configuration as an AW for post-94 rifles is the issue, not the design itself.", securityboy: "exactly you cant own a firearm called an "AUG" made after 94, but a MSAR or USR is not called a AUG, nor are they clones of such, because AUG's have flash-hiders, etc whereas they do not...don't over think it...", vellneuve: "You're reading it wrong - securityboy has it nailed." WHAT?)

I agree with your interpretation, FWIW.

 

[OfficerObie59]

I feel dumber after reading the first 18 posts.

Seriously, some stuff just isn't worth worrying about, particularly if it's so widely accepted.

 

[Tartakovsky]

I agree with Officer Obie. None of the responses here paint a clear picture. Although Glide's question is valid, and all of his points are solid (specifically language in the awb regarding copies, duplicates, banned by name, etc.), is it legal to own a post-ban manufactured Steyr Aug A3 without "evil" features in MA? I know the MSAR is legal. I want an AUG A3.

 

[Kevlar]

...is it legal to own a post-ban manufactured Steyr Aug A3 without "evil" features in MA?

IMO, no, as it is banned by name.

 

[Steyr_AUG]

IMO, no, as it is banned by name.

Debatable... Steyr as the manufacturer made the original A1 model of the AUG.

The new A3 model of the AUG is named "AUG/SA A3 USA" and is either made by Sabre Defence Industries or Vltor, not Steyr.

 

[Kevlar]

Debatable... Steyr as the manufacturer made the original A1 model of the AUG.

The new A3 model of the AUG is named "AUG/SA A3 USA" and is either made by Sabre Defence Industries or Vltor, not Steyr.

I don't know who actually manufactures it, but it's listed on the Steyr website.

I would say if it is marked "Steyr AUG", it's banned.

IANAL, YMMV etc.