So with everything that has happened in Japan

[SteelShooter]

And in that case I think the best strategy would be to constantly be out there searching and gathering what food you can - but supplement that by eating out of the cache. I think a lot of people operate under the assumption that they would just eat directly from the food cache - and the food cache only, when SHTF.

I make sure all my squirrels, deer and possum are well fed in my back woods. Day one of SHTF I'm calling them all home to daddy.

 

[OPM]

I've looked at all sorts of options for storing water (underground tanks, cisterns, etc) - and the basic rule that seems to apply is that it's going to cost about $1 per gallon. A 5 gallon can - is going to cost you about $5.00. A 1000 gallon underground tank - is going to cost you about $1000.

You can definitely buy cheaper. Due to space limitations I bought a few food-grade 75gal barrels. They cost me $20 each delivered. It was local, but the guy delivered them to my front door. That’s $0.27/gal. Without looking hard or negotiating, below is 275 gal for $95. Pre delivery that’s $0.35; Or 1550 gal for $570. Pre delivery that’s $0.37 per gal. And I know that if you look hard you’ll find them locally for less.

http://cgi.ebay.com/275-GAL-TOTE-TA...002?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3365fe079a
http://cgi.ebay.com/1550-Gallon-Pol...795?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c02d05453

While we are on the subject - some people seem to go nuts with water prep. Water IS important, but we do not live in AZ desert. There is water everywhere around here and more than we need to survive falls from the sky. Building a rain collector is super easy. Solar distilling lake or even ocean water is a bit harder, but on small scale is not difficult. My point, you want EMERGENCY supply. I think 3 month based on minimum recommended requirement of 1 gal per person per day is sufficient. I believe that 1-2 weeks should be inside the house ready to go. So two 7 gal portable water containers for one person. I empty and refill mine every 6 month. Then add two 55 gal barrels outside and also rotate them every 6 months. I have four 75 gal for 2 people and I use them in my garden and refill using rain. They are outside, so in the winter they are filled about 75% to allow for freezing. If you have gardens you want extra to deal with droughts, but again, no need to go overboard. Our growing season is 5-6 months and during this time we average 3.5” per month. So, IMHO, 1-2” of extra water and ability to quickly collect rain is all that is needed.

 

[Twigg]

About WaterBob's

I've had a couple of these. We had a small group buy on them a couple of years back. These are a single use item, you're not going to get them to dry out on the inside.

I had the chance to use one of mine when the water system in my community was being worked on last year. The biggest drawback is you need to unpackage, deploy and fill the WaterBob before losing your source. I wound up duct taping the fill tube to the faucet because my hands were getting numb from the cold.

You'll need containers to transfer the water in and at least a 2 1/2 gal bucket for flushing. Having a backup siphon pump or at least a length of tubing is a good idea as the included siphon is a bit cheesy.

The WaterBob we used provided us with more water than we needed for the 48 hours the service was shut off.

 

[gene223]

OPM
I just want to add my two cents: what if the water (rain- and ground-) is contaminated? In many types of contaminants it would be unwise to filter such water and immediately and permanently contaminate the (expensive) filter.

 

[Twigg]

Then you will not have any water.

 

[gene223]

That's whre a quantity of stored water come in. One can have enough for years.

 

[OPM]

OPM
I just want to add my two cents: what if the water (rain- and ground-) is contaminated? In many types of contaminants it would be unwise to filter such water and immediately and permanently contaminate the (expensive) filter.

If the water, including rainwater, is contaminated for more than 3 months and solar distillers or other filtration cannot make the water drinkable – you should evacuate the area! I cannot think of any cases where water would be this polluted and the environment would be survivable even with plenty of “bottled” water. Furthermore, not every disaster is survivable. Humankind hates to admit it, but we are tiny irrelevant self-important creatures that can easily be wiped from existence. I can easily name a dozen catastrophes that would kill all of us, no matter how well prepared.

Do not get me wrong, having more than 3 months of water is not a bad thing. But it is simply not important. Therefore, money, energy, space, etc., can be allocated elsewhere. Keep in mind that storage tanks have to be cleaned and stored water filtered or chemically treated prior to consumption. I am on city supply. So for me – bigger tanks = bigger headaches. As I see it, beyond 3 months, unjustifiable headaches.

 

[gene223]

OPM
And you may be right - if you are on city water you have bigger problems to worry about. I just want to mention the obvious: the prepping is all about extra options. It may be impossible to relocate within three months, but entirely possible within three years, for example.

 

[ShadeWPI]

275 GAL TOTE TANK - WATER, STORAGE, BIODIESEL, SEALCOAT

Item condition: Used

Hope you weren't really planning on using that 275 gal, non-food grade USED storage tank for drinking water. Especially not from Dixonsealer

Welcome to our eBay store. Dixon Sealer & Supply, Inc. has been providing you with sealcoating equipment, parts and material for over 40 years. We offer new and used equipment. Visit our new website, www.dixonsealer.com. Please add us to your list of favorite sellers and visit often

I'm pretty sure no one here want to start storing drinking water (or bathing water) in a used 275 gal driveway sealant tank.

The second tank is at least a potable water storage tank, but

Shipping and handling
Shipping to: Will arrange for local pickup only (no shipping).

and their smaller tanks are freight shipping from Texas, so they're going to cost a fortune in shipping charges.

 

[xtry51]

A bottle of bleach (or pool shock granules) goes a long way.....

Between that and old fashion boiling I think you're gonna be doing the best you can.

 

[atmay]

A bottle of bleach (or pool shock granules) goes a long way.....

Between that and old fashion boiling I think you're gonna be doing the best you can.

I would recommend pool shock or other powdered bleach. Liquid bleach degrades over time, and if stored for long enough becomes ineffective. Powdered bleach, OTOH, will not.


As for re-evaluating my preps post-Japan, I think I might move a little further inland.

 

[ShadeWPI]

Bleach and Boiling are fine for biological contaminants (cysts, bacteria, alge, fungi, parasits and viri) but is useless against other contaminants.

Water tainted with hydro-carbons, heavy metals or radioative particulates (like isotopic iodine) is still contaminated after shocking and boiling. This is what you want/need heavy duty filtering to deal with.

Depending on the cause of the disaster, one or the other might be your issue. In Japan right now, its the later.

 

[xtry51]

Bleach and Boiling are fine for biological contaminants (cysts, bacteria, alge, fungi, parasits and viri) but is useless against other contaminants.

Water tainted with hydro-carbons, heavy metals or radioative particulates (like isotopic iodine) is still contaminated after shocking and boiling. This is what you want/need heavy duty filtering to deal with.

Depending on the cause of the disaster, one or the other might be your issue. In Japan right now, its the later.

Holy crap. Dude what kind of water are you planning on drinking? We're talking about rain water collection, not drinking water from the cooling pool at reactor 4

If you're in an area with significant enough fallout to effect drinking water you need to GTFOOT and stop trying to filter the water!

You should already know the quality of any local water sources like streams/lakes/well/etc. If not its highly unlikely you'll have a way to know that there's heavy metals/radiation/oil other than them being so high concentration you can visibly see them.

I don't get a chemical analysis of water when I backpack. I just add a tablet or put it thru the Katadyn and drink it.

 

[gene223]

xtry51
"I don't get a chemical analysis of water when I backpack. I just add a tablet or put it thru the Katadyn and drink it."
That's because the thing have not hit the fan yet. Whatever happens WILL affect water quality every where. Even a "simple" earthquake brings all kinds of poisons to the surface. An eruption always results in higher radioactivity. Just because TV doesn't talk about these things doesn't mean they do not exist.

 

[OPM]

Hope you weren't really planning on using that 275 gal, non-food grade USED storage tank for drinking water. Especially not from Dixonsealer I'm pretty sure no one here want to start storing drinking water (or bathing water) in a used 275 gal driveway sealant tank.

Without looking hard or negotiating, below is... I know that if you look hard you’ll find them locally for less.

As I said in my original post, you can find similar local and cheaper. The 275gal totes usually come in two varieties - FDA food-grate, often used to store cooking oil, and similar none FDA approved plastic, often used to store carwash detergents. If you look hard you can find either type locally for about $40-100. As long as you thoroughly wash the tote and keep it out of direct sun – either type can be used to store garden water. Additionally, if you refill them once or twice per year and filter the content prior to drinking, either can be used to store drinking water.

Some people have active imagination and they think that none FDA approved means the chemicals will leak into the water and you’ll be drinking BPA or similar horrors. In reality nothing can be further from the truth. Industrial plastics have different specs because they have to remain stable @ spec temp and resistant to spec solvent. So FDA usually means stable at @150-190 degrees and resistant to organic acids and oils. Also FDA often requires plastics of greater purity than those used in SOME non-food packaging. E.g. meds plastic is of higher purity than FDA approved. Bottom line non-food plastic could and frequently is of superior grade than food plastic and often costs more. In case of drinking water – acidity is relatively low and temps are usually 90 degrees or lower. So either tote will be fine – especially in case of emergency or for gardening. Having said that, FDA totes will require less cleaning to be safe for use and therefore that would be a better tote to buy.

Again, I did not look hard, but here is a guy 200 mi from Boston selling 275 gal totes for $15. I bet some of them are FDA approved.

 

[gene223]

I have heard that the difference between FDA and regular hdpe is in release agent. Non FDA agent is toxic but cheaper. The composition is the same. Above is valid for white products only. I have no first hand experience with hdpe products, but it makes sense: cleaning the whole automatic line (for plastic mat'l manufacture) between FDA and others would cost a lot of money.

 

[OPM]

I have heard that the difference between FDA and regular hdpe is in release agent. Non FDA agent is toxic but cheaper. The composition is the same. Above is valid for white products only. I have no first hand experience with hdpe products, but it makes sense: cleaning the whole automatic line (for plastic mat'l manufacture) between FDA and others would cost a lot of money.

Yes - release agents, plastic thickness, plastic purity, stability, resistance to acids, etc., are all part of the equation. Some virgin non-food-grade plastic is superior to FDA and some is inferior. i.e. too thin, unstable, dirty, etc. And of course no amount of cleaning would make me feel comfortable storing water in a container that use to keep something extremely toxic.

My point was that a lot of people seem to believe that only FDA approved is safe. Furthermore they believe that water supply flows through surgically clean environment. In reality, both bottled water and town supply is exposed to a lot of none FDA materials, not to mention all of the chemicals, dirt, bacteria, animals, decay, etc. Many people stopped eating hotdogs after reading The Jungle. If only they knew were their water is coming from...

 

[ShadeWPI]

Holy crap. Dude what kind of water are you planning on drinking? We're talking about rain water collection, not drinking water from the cooling pool at reactor 4

If you're in an area with significant enough fallout to effect drinking water you need to GTFOOT and stop trying to filter the water!

You should already know the quality of any local water sources like streams/lakes/well/etc. If not its highly unlikely you'll have a way to know that there's heavy metals/radiation/oil other than them being so high concentration you can visibly see them.

I don't get a chemical analysis of water when I backpack. I just add a tablet or put it thru the Katadyn and drink it.

Surface Water sources (streams, rivers, lakes, etc) are enviornmental contaminant concentrators - collecting contaminants from a broad region and concentrating them. That's why it's prefered for drinking wells to be drilled deep - to use the natural filtering effects of soil to reduce surface contaminants.

Rain pulls atmospheric contaminants out of the air and off any surface. If a disaster includes chemical fires (like lots of rioters burning cars & tires for example) lakes, rivers, streams and rain water will all likely be contaminated with hydro-carbons and a mix of organic and inorganic contamiants. "Safe" drinking sources immediately before the disaster can quickly become contaminated with - as you point out, undetectable, but still dangerous, levels of contaminants.

The point is that after a disaster you should be treating (chlorine, bleach, iodine, etc) and filtering the water before you drink it, not just one or the other.

 

[calsdad]

As I said in my original post, you can find similar local and cheaper. The 275gal totes usually come in two varieties - FDA food-grate, often used to store cooking oil, and similar none FDA approved plastic, often used to store carwash detergents. If you look hard you can find either type locally for about $40-100. As long as you thoroughly wash the tote and keep it out of direct sun – either type can be used to store garden water. Additionally, if you refill them once or twice per year and filter the content prior to drinking, either can be used to store drinking water.

Some people have active imagination and they think that none FDA approved means the chemicals will leak into the water and you’ll be drinking BPA or similar horrors. In reality nothing can be further from the truth. Industrial plastics have different specs because they have to remain stable @ spec temp and resistant to spec solvent. So FDA usually means stable at @150-190 degrees and resistant to organic acids and oils. Also FDA often requires plastics of greater purity than those used in SOME non-food packaging. E.g. meds plastic is of higher purity than FDA approved. Bottom line non-food plastic could and frequently is of superior grade than food plastic and often costs more. In case of drinking water – acidity is relatively low and temps are usually 90 degrees or lower. So either tote will be fine – especially in case of emergency or for gardening. Having said that, FDA totes will require less cleaning to be safe for use and therefore that would be a better tote to buy.

Again, I did not look hard, but here is a guy 200 mi from Boston selling 275 gal totes for $15. I bet some of them are FDA approved.[wink]

Got a link?

 

[OPM]

Got a link?

http://cgi.ebay.com/275-GALLON-TOTE...332?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c563612b4

 

[ShadeWPI]

Item number: 190424945332
Item location: Glens Falls, NY, United States
Ships to: Local pick-up only
Payments: PayPal See payment details
History: 48 sold

Not from boston by the way. (sorry, just saw the 200 miles from Boston)

 

[calsdad]

http://cgi.ebay.com/275-GALLON-TOTE...332?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c563612b4

Thanks.

I did some searching and found it - from the pics they look to be stained from the veggie oil that was supposedly in them. But I suppose they could be cleaned up some and used for water storage for watering a garden or something like that.

 

[OPM]

Man! you people are so picky. Here http://www.containerexchanger.com/p...otes:Once-used_275_Gallon_IBC_Totes/sale/1629 do not say I never gave you anything.

It’s $87.50 + $5; in MA; Food-grade; only used once; held Italian salad dressing; and it’s prewashed. Anything else I can assist you with?

 

[dcmdon]

The disaster in Japan has only reinforced the point I've made several times on this board: That people over prepare with the fun stuff (Bugout vehicles, guns, ammo, knives, water purifiers)

And under prepare as far as the boring stuff by having digital copies stored off site AND in the cloud where possible of:

1) Homeowners insurance docs
2) auto insurance docs
3) health insurance docs
4) birth cert
5) bank account info (so the insurance co can direct dep money direcly into your account)
6) mortgage docs
7) digital copies of all cherished family photos
8) a comprehensive inventory of your home, including lists, photos, and scanned receipts of high ticket items.
9) scans of passports
10) scans of social security cards
11) resumes (you do want to get a job in your new town quickly, don't you?)

Predictably, there was not a complete breakdown of society in Japan. So all of that true hardcore survival stuff was unnecessary.

Sure things like water purification, food rations and things like that were VERY useful. But a far greater number of people will need access to their life data contained in the items above.

Don

 

[ShadeWPI]

dcmdon,

One thing I would say is:

Have hard (print) and soft (electronic) copies of all important documents, both Local and Off-site. ("The Cloud" is just a fancy name for internet accessable off-site)

Make a copy of all of the items you listed. Add your medical records (if you can get them) and phone number lists. Compress them into a password protected ZIP file and copy them onto a couple of USB sticks (micro SD cards work well too). Keep one on you, another in your "go" bag. Keep one off-site (At work, parent's house, friend's house, etc). Store a copy on an off-site computer that you can gain access to via the internet (the cloud)

A couple other things to add:

Credit Card numbers and the customer service number for the credit card company - memorize your CID number and experation date so you don't need to record those
A digital copy of a good book (sounds silly, but it can be a lot of help).

If society hasn't completely collapsed and you can get out with just a memory stick with this on it, you'll likely be able to get back on your feet in a couple of days.

 

[dcmdon]

Shade,
Thanks for expanding on my point. I knew I missed stuff, I was going from memory.

The cloud can be useful because most disasters are regional. If you can get out with a vehicle you can start working right away. I've got certain, less sensitive docs stored on Google docs.

If you can't get on line, you can retrieve your data from the off site location you sent duplicates to.

One thing I forgot is pretty obvious, a laptop computer.

The Katrina victims who were prepared set up shop in Houston or some other place with all their relevant docs. They were then able to:
1) file insurance claims
2) rent an apartment
3) get a job if necessary.
4) enroll their kids in school
5) establish residency so they could even buy a gun if they weren't able to bring one with them.

Yes, its way more fun to debate what your BOV should be or the finer nuances of the different types of water filtration, but lets face it, this is the stuff that will most likely be necessary.

The disasters you are most likely to face in your lifetime are Katrina/Japan/S.Cal wildfire type disasters, or a simple house fire. All the Guns and goretex in the world won't help you then.

The other thing is that the type of prep I've detailed above is cheap. Very cheap. 3 - 16GB thumb drives cost a total of about $60. That puts one in your bug out bag and 2 more distributed to friends or relatives who live some distance away.

 

[OPM]

You people are bringing me down with your sensible recommendations. If we keep talking about practical, inexpensive, prudent things to do, how am I going to learn which camouflage pattern to paint my BOV? So lets get back on topic – below is my BOV, please tell me how to best paint it.

 

[Gonzo]

Razzle dazzle is the only way to go for a SHTF scenario.

 

[atmay]

Razzle dazzle is the only way to go for a SHTF scenario.

Yep. I'd hate for them Unterseeboot captains to get a range on me if SHTF.

 

[garandman]

One thing I didn't anticipate was radioactive contamination of the drinking water from another region. For example, a nuke has an incident in Ohio and fallout hits the Quabbin.

Because Seabrook and Plymouth aren't that close I didn't think that was much of a concern.