Reforming NH's NIC/POCS bs for handguns... ?

[drgrant]

Anyone know if any of the pro RKBA groups are drafting legislation on this?

The reason I ask, is anyone familiar with FFLs in NH knows that the state is often incapable of processing NICS checks for handguns in a timely manner. NICS checks for residents buying handguns are frequently administratively delayed, particularly on weekends, and the system fails completely whenever there is a gun show going on somewhere in NH. This completely f**ks up sales for dealers at gun shows, among other things. People are not going to buy if they know their chances of leaving with their gun are in the slim to none category.

There must be some kickback from the feds involved here for NH running their own POC for handgun checks. The thing is, there's no reason those checks can't go through the FBI and not the state POC, unless the "concern" is that the state POC has other disqualifiers or whatever it uses in running checks that only it has access to... but even if that is the case, it's completely stupid because buyers of rifles and shotguns go through the feds anyways via the FBI... which for all their problems, at least most people get a "Proceed" pretty much immediately.

IMO the state needs to get out of the NICS business completely, or use some of that "kickback money" to expedite the process.

I hate background checks and they should be eliminated, but under the current system something is obviously f**ked up there. Qualified people have to wait DAYS to get a handgun, and that's just f**king ridiculous, absurd, and unacceptable... for both dealers and NH citizens alike.

It's a sad state of affairs when I can buy a "compliant" handgun in NH as an MA resident, have it brought to an MA FFL the same day, and bring my stupid "compliant" handgun home, meanwhile, any NH citizen buying that same Saturday or whatever is likely to get delayed well into the next week.


-Mike

 

[KMS]

I've been delayed once and that was buying my first handgun in '94 because I was to cheap to pay the extra for the insta check....dig around GONH.

 

[Racenet]

This is exactly why I will not purchase a handgun from any of my local dealers. I did once, and only once. It was a real f'ed up thing to have to go through. So f'ed up, it actually should be something that gets done in MA to feel right at home. That tells you how f'ed up it is! I purchase all handguns out of state, have my local dealer do the transfer in and all checks go through the feds at that point, since it was not bought locally. Quick, easy and simple. No dealing with the state and their f'ed up system. There is no way you are going to pry this out of their grubby little fingers.

 

[Stiggy]

I got delayed once purchasing in NH. And that was due to Mass's NICS system being down or something. The lady on the phone said something about having to go through MA because I was a prior resident. Even then it only took an extra hour. My FFL called me later and I had it in hand that day. Other than that, no problems.

 

[drgrant]

This is exactly why I will not purchase a handgun from any of my local dealers. I did once, and only once. It was a real f'ed up thing to have to go through. So f'ed up, it actually should be something that gets done in MA to feel right at home. That tells you how f'ed up it is! I purchase all handguns out of state, have my local dealer do the transfer in and all checks go through the feds at that point, since it was not bought locally. Quick, easy and simple. No dealing with the state and their f'ed up system. There is no way you are going to pry this out of their grubby little fingers.

This makes no sense. There is no functional difference in NH between the two transfers you just mentioned. All handgun checks go through the state POC whether they are an import or via the dealer directly.

If an NH dealer called the Feds for ANY handgun check, they did it wrong.

-Mike

 

[Dradian]

I'm curious what dealer the op is talking about

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[Racenet]

Don't know what to tell you Mike. The state was never called for a record check for any out of state purchase and related inbound transfer. This has been the same with 3 local FFL's. All of them use the fed check system. The only time the state system was used was with an in state handgun purchase.

 

[drgrant]

Don't know what to tell you Mike. The state was never called for a record check for any out of state purchase and related inbound transfer. This has been the same with 3 local FFL's. All of them use the fed check system. The only time the state system was used was with an in state handgun purchase.

Are you sure?

The reason I say this is because to an outside observer the procedure seems exactly the same. You don't know that the dealer is calling the state unless they tell you that. They usually only tell you this if you get delayed. It's not like there's a special form or anything, it's conducted the same way it would be with a regular NICS operator, except that the phone number they call for the handgun checks goes to some NH state POC for this purpose, which is only staffed by a few people. When the system is not overloaded it wouldn't appear to be any different than a regular BG check that one would conduct with the feds.

Since this is a federal check, I find it hard to believe that the Feds would be supporting a scheme of "the POC is only for new sales and the regular fed check is just "fine" for any other sales. From an FFL sense that doesn't make any sense at all. For example in the bound book there is no real delineation between new and used "hardware". A handgun is a handgun is a handgun under federal law. There's nothing "special" about a new handgun being sold by a dealer versus one that someone bought off gunbroker or got transferred in by someone else. In basically every free state they
go in and out of the books the same way.

If the dealers are not using the state POC, I am surprised the feds are going to let dealers run handgun checks through the feds, since NH is specifically listed with NICS as a POC state for handguns. Of course the dealers could be getting pissed and sort of monkeying around with the background checks, either that or the FBI is letting dealers call them direct on NH handgun transfers under some sort of weird contingency plan.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I'm curious what dealer the op is talking about

Talk to any dealer that's tried to do handgun transfers on a gun show weekend in NH. It's not any one dealer in particular, I've spoken to 3 different ones and they've all had the same problems. They all have "queues" of customers that they have to wait for a day or longer for callbacks for proceeds. At least one dealer has told me that the state has left them hanging and they end up default proceeding the customer because the 3 day window expired because the state "forgot" to call them back.

In some cases it's not just gun show weekends, but sometimes just weekends in general.

-Mike

 

[ScottS]

I've purchased many guns through my transfer dealer in ASH, and he's called the State, not the Feds, every time. I can hear him from the kitchen table where I sit.

I'm positive Mike is correct. There is no functional difference between buying a handgun at Riley's and through a transfer into an FFL.

 

[Racenet]

Are you sure?

Yes, 110% sure.

 

[ScottS]

FYI, I posed this question to my FFL for clarification. Here is his response:

All dispositions of firearms - other than those involving shotguns/rifles - by an NH-based FFL-holder to a retail buyer in New Hampshire, must be approved by the New Hampshire State Police.

The dealer must also call the NHSP for clearance, if a transfer involves either a rifle/shotgun AND a handgun, or a frame (handgun), or a receiver (rifle or shotgun).

The only time an NH-based FFL-holder calls the FBI NICS Operations Center, is when the firearm(s) to be transferred is/are only (a) rifle(s) or (a) shotgun(s). Thus, if you acquire only rifles and/or shotguns, I must call the NICS, for clearance to carry out the transfer.

I do not have to call NICS or the NHSP, if I return to you a firearm, that you brought to me for shipment to a manufacturer for repair or upgrade. When the manufacturer returns the firearm to me, I can simply deliver it to you, against your signature on a receipt.

However, if you consign a firearm to me for sale (which I hope You don't do!!!), and then decide not to sell it, I must carry out a NICS or NHSP check, before returning the firearm to You.

Hope this helps.

This guy is the most meticulous FFL I have dealt with in 30+ years. I trust his call on this.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

For a long time, son Lance who has the FFL in NH paid $100 per year for a state dealers license for handgun sales. That was done away with and maybe things have slowed down since they no longer have that income. Jack.

 

[soloman02]

I've purchased three handguns so far in NH and never had an issue with being delayed. I purchased all of them on a weekend as well. About 4 years back I was at the Concord gun show with a friend and he purchased a new Taurus 24/7 and had no delay at all. So I don't know where your coming from Drgrant. Unless this is something new that has cropped up in the last year.

 

[Marcus99]

I've only been delayed once on a friday afternoon. The other occasions concord got back to the dealer within half an hour. Correct me if I'm wrong but for handgun purchases Concord reaches out to the respective agencies in former states of residence instead of going through the NICS. My understanding is that this provides a greater deal of coverage than contacting the feds because state based agencies will typically have access to information that isn't put into the NICS. I see the logic in it, and thus far it hasn't been a major inconvenience for me, so I don't have a problem with how NH goes about it. That could change as fragmentation between state/federal agencies decreases, and streamlined databases and reporting practices are improved. Using the NICS process all across the board could make more financial sense and be more efficient.

 

[drgrant]

I've purchased three handguns so far in NH and never had an issue with being delayed. I purchased all of them on a weekend as well. About 4 years back I was at the Concord gun show with a friend and he purchased a new Taurus 24/7 and had no delay at all. So I don't know where your coming from Drgrant. Unless this is something new that has cropped up in the last year.

This has only been happening for about a year or so. The reason I brought it up is one of the dealers I use was at Manchester about this time last year and he was griping about the NICS backups. So basically, this has been happening since last Fall, at least.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I've only been delayed once on a friday afternoon. The other occasions concord got back to the dealer within half an hour. Correct me if I'm wrong but for handgun purchases Concord reaches out to the respective agencies in former states of residence instead of going through the NICS.

No, Federal law dictates that they must use NICS at a minimum, so basically the state has a NICS terminal(s) that are linked into the FBI, and beyond that they might be able to run additional inquiries. I can't find anything in the NH RSAs or regulations that stipulates WHY NH is even doing this POC thing. If I was going to make a WAG it probably is because there is some money coming back to the state from the feds for doing it. Years ago someone told me this was because they wanted to be able to check for people in the NH DMH databases for looney bin disqualifiers, but I've never been able to confirm whether that is actually true or not. (Lots of states do not share mental health info with the feds because of privacy laws in that particular state that restrict the distribution of such information) Even if this is the case, it is idiotic that they would only want to do that for "handguns" as if mentally unstable are somehow more dangerous with a handgun than a rifle or shotgun.

-Mike

 

[caboose84]

Back in the original Brady Bill days, wasn't there a waiver to the "waiting period" for states that did there own background checks before the NICS system came online? Could be something leftover from back then?

 

[NHDaveK]

Back in the original Brady Bill days, wasn't there a waiver to the "waiting period" for states that did there own background checks before the NICS system came online? Could be something leftover from back then?

Yes,
NH went to state run system to avoid the waiting period,now that there is no federal waiting period (some states still have it thou) they, NH should let the NICS check go back to the Fed system as it saves the state money.I heard something on the radio yesterday-Nappen,said this was in the list of bills waiting to be passed.

Thank goodness I have my C&R and pretty much only buy C&R guns,or do FTF to NH residents, so I can miss all this crap.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

This has happened to me. I bought my SR9c at about 7:30pm on a Wednesday night and got delayed for two days! The next week, got my new lower and was in and out in ten minutes. Both called the NH gun line. Years ago, an FFL stated to me that there are only three ladies that do NH background checks for firearms. Of course, take that with a grain of salt.

 

[GraftonNH]

do FTF to NH residents, so I can miss all this crap.

+1

 

[drgrant]

Yes,
NH went to state run system to avoid the waiting period,now that there is no federal waiting period (some states still have it thou) they, NH should let the NICS check go back to the Fed system as it saves the state money.I heard something on the radio yesterday-Nappen,said this was in the list of bills waiting to be passed.

This is good to hear. Also good to get some background.... I figured NH was doing this because they got some kind of kickback from the feds for acting as a POC for some of the transfers. Ironically enough the state system, at the time, if what you say is correct... was created to address an obvious deficiency. The problem is now that system has become a deficiency in and of itself.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

This has happened to me. I bought my SR9c at about 7:30pm on a Wednesday night and got delayed for two days! The next week, got my new lower and was in and out in ten minutes. Both called the NH gun line. Years ago, an FFL stated to me that there are only three ladies that do NH background checks for firearms. Of course, take that with a grain of salt.

That sounds realistic, since one of the FFLs I use up there always mentions one of them by name, so it's basically the same (tiny) group of people doing it.

-Mike