Recipes for 9mm, .40S&S, .45ACP with W231?

[Lugnut]

I'm now moving on to other calibers. I've tried varies loads with the W231 for my 9mm with 124gr FMJ with COL 1.15" I think I'm good with 4.5gr for now.

Any suggestions for W231 for .40 Speer 180gr FMJ FN and .45 Speer 230gr FMJ RN? I have some data but wanted other's experiences as well. The darn Speer manual doesn't have any data for the .40 180 FMJ with W231.

Other folks have given me recommendations with my 9mm and I've got a couple pounds of W231 to use but I'm open to other powders with these bullets as well for more data points.

Thanks!

 

[M1911]

I used to use 231 for .45 ACP. I'll try to remember to post the data this evening -- send me a pm if I forget.

 

[Dick]

Factory-developed loading data for W231 and other Winchester powders (now manufactured by Hodgdon) here:

http://www.wwpowder.com/data/handgun/index.php

 

[EddieCoyle]

Factory-developed loading data for W231 and other Winchester powders (now manufactured by Hodgdon) here:

http://www.wwpowder.com/data/handgun/index.php

Wow, they must have changed that data. I've been using 5.5 grains of 231 behind a 230 gr FMJ for my .45 ACP. The velocity for this load is right around 850 fps. According to the data, I'm over max. I could've sworn I got it from that site a while back.

 

[Lugnut]

Wow, they must have changed that data. I've been using 5.5 grains of 231 behind a 230 gr FMJ for my .45 ACP. The velocity for this load is right around 850 fps. According to the data, I'm over max. I could've sworn I got it from that site a while back.

My Speer manual has the range of 5.6-6.2gr of 231 for .45 FMJ. That's why I'm looking for other recipes as there seems to be SOO much variation from one manual to another--- when the bullet size exists that is!

 

[Dick]

There's nothing wrong with looking at different load data, but remember that there are other important factors that determine peak pressure - not just weight of powder and bullet. Some primers are hotter than others and will produce higher pressures, the internal capacity of cases from different manufacturers can differ and smaller cases will produce higher pressures. Even the brand and type of bullet within a given weight is important - some bullets take the rifling more easily than others and the latter will produce higher pressures. Unless you're reproducing a load exactly - same powder, same bullet, same primer, etc., then you're really not following the manual. All of that said, at the relatively low pressures of the .45 ACP you will likely get away with a bit of carelessness in following recipes exactly; that may not be the case with rifle loads, where a case head separation could lead to some very unpleasant consequences.

 

[highlander]

Hey lugnut speer bullets are copper PLATED not copperr jacketed more like shooting lead bullets Most others are actually guilding metal a copper/zinc alloy.
I was loading some 44 mags and made a goof no primer so I tried to pull the bullet with a knetic bullet puller the jacket stayed but the lead core came out never had that happen before BTW Rem factory bullet 240 gr hp

 

[Lugnut]

Hey lugnut speer bullets are copper PLATED not copperr jacketed more like shooting lead bullets Most others are actually guilding metal a copper/zinc alloy.
I was loading some 44 mags and made a goof no primer so I tried to pull the bullet with a knetic bullet puller the jacket stayed but the lead core came out never had that happen before BTW Rem factory bullet 240 gr hp

Highlander- no these bullets I have are absolutely FMJ- ATK Speer. I've been reading up on plated bullets from Berry, etc. These I have are Speer FMJ, not TMJ as I can see the lead on the bottom.

 

[highlander]

Highlander- no these bullets I have are absolutely FMJ- ATK Speer. I've been reading up on plated bullets from Berry, etc. These I have are Speer FMJ, not TMJ as I can see the lead on the bottom.

My Speer manual #13 says they're TMJ but I've not used them so I can't say for sure but according to Speer manual #13 pg 427"" a hardened lead core is is first formed and then a pure copper jacket is built up one molecule at a time through a chemical electro plating. THE RESULTING JACKET COVERS THE ENTIRE CORE INCLUDING THE BASE'
This quote is in the Speer manual #12 as well onpage 418.
I just went and looked at some Speer TMJ bullets I have on hand 185 gr 45 and they have no exposed lead on the base

 

[Lugnut]

My Speer manual #13 says they're TMJ but I've not used them so I can't say for sure but according to Speer manual #13 pg 427"" a hardened lead core is is first formed and then a pure copper jacket is built up one molecule at a time through a chemical electro plating. THE RESULTING JACKET COVERS THE ENTIRE CORE INCLUDING THE BASE'
This quote is in the Speer manual #12 as well onpage 418.
I just went and looked at some Speer TMJ bullets I have on hand 185 gr 45 and they have no exposed lead on the base

I sent you a PM.

 

[M1911]

Here's what I had been using until recently (I'm using Winchester WST now) in my 5" 1911s.

Caliber: 45 ACP
Brass: Remington Nickel-Plated +P
Primer: Winchester WLP
Powder: Winchester 231 5.4 gr.
Bullet: Rainier Ballistics 230gr TMJ round-nose
OAL: 1.257

My brass has been reloaded about 11 times now. During that period, I've had one case that split, but no other signs of high pressure.

I didn't run this through my chrono, so I don't know how fast this is. Work up slowly and follow published reload data.

 

[Lugnut]

Here's what I had been using until recently (I'm using Winchester WST now) in my 5" 1911s.

Caliber: 45 ACP
Brass: Remington Nickel-Plated +P
Primer: Winchester WLP
Powder: Winchester 231 5.4 gr.
Bullet: Rainier Ballistics 230gr TMJ round-nose
OAL: 1.257

My brass has been reloaded about 11 times now. During that period, I've had one case that split, but no other signs of high pressure.

I didn't run this through my chrono, so I don't know how fast this is. Work up slowly and follow published reload data.

Thanks- I was going to start at 5.6gr. Was the charge you used a light load?

 

[M1911]

I wouldn't call it heavy, but I haven't run it through a chrono.

 

[Lugnut]

Well I shot 10 rounds of .40S&W Speer 180gr FMJ with 5.0gr of 231, COL 1.130" successfully. Seems like a decent load, maybe a little light compared to CCI commercial rounds I'm used to. No feeding problems at all. I think I need to adjust the taper crimp a tiny bit more, I was so concerned with loading the .40s I don't think I removed all the belling on the case... didn't want too much crimp. I think I might try 5.2 grains (maybe 5.4gr) and be done with it. Cases looked just fine.

 

[Dick]

Well I shot 10 rounds of .40S&W Speer 180gr FMJ with 5.0gr of 231, COL 1.130" successfully. Seems like a decent load, maybe a little light compared to CCI commercial rounds I'm used to. No feeding problems at all. I think I need to adjust the taper crimp a tiny bit more, I was so concerned with loading the .40s I don't think I removed all the belling on the case... didn't want too much crimp. I think I might try 5.2 grains (maybe 5.4gr) and be done with it. Cases looked just fine.

I hate to keep chiming in sounding like a worrying mother hen (I'm really not like that - honest), but that load is already at maximum according to the W231 data from Winchester, and Speer doesn't list W231 for use with a 180 gr bullet, at least not in my #12 manual. If you have data from a reputable reloading manual that shows use of 5.2 or 5.4 gr W231 (and are following the recipe exactly), then fine. But if not, and you want more punch in your 180 gr .40S&W loads, the answer is to switch to a different powder, not stuff in more W231.

Another important note - most pistol cartridges don't develop sufficient pressure to produce early warning signs of overpressure on the case, even when pressures are well above maximum. So the usual anecdotal pressure signs (primer flattening/cratering, case and neck splits, etc.) don't always apply, and those that are indicative, such as miking case head expansion which I do with every round when I'm developing new rifle loads, are of little value with pistols.

With regard to taper crimps, if the rounds feed and chamber properly and the bullet is being held securely (the usual test is to take a loaded round and attempt to "seat" the bullet further by hand-pressing it against the front of the reloading bench) then you're probably fine as is. Alternatively, and better, is to invest in a good set of calipers - my aging eyes like the new digital models - and measure the diameter of a loaded round (better yet, measure a number of rounds) at the case mouth. The SAAMI standard for the .40S&W is 0.4230 inches.

 

[Lugnut]

I hate to keep chiming in sounding like a worrying mother hen (I'm really not like that - honest), but that load is already at maximum according to the W231 data from Winchester, and Speer doesn't list W231 for use with a 180 gr bullet, at least not in my #12 manual. If you have data from a reputable reloading manual that shows use of 5.2 or 5.4 gr W231 (and are following the recipe exactly), then fine. But if not, and you want more punch in your 180 gr .40S&W loads, the answer is to switch to a different powder, not stuff in more W231.

Another important note - most pistol cartridges don't develop sufficient pressure to produce early warning signs of overpressure on the case, even when pressures are well above maximum. So the usual anecdotal pressure signs (primer flattening/cratering, case and neck splits, etc.) don't always apply, and those that are indicative, such as miking case head expansion which I do with every round when I'm developing new rifle loads, are of little value with pistols.

With regard to taper crimps, if the rounds feed and chamber properly and the bullet is being held securely (the usual test is to take a loaded round and attempt to "seat" the bullet further by hand-pressing it against the front of the reloading bench) then you're probably fine as is. Alternatively, and better, is to invest in a good set of calipers - my aging eyes like the new digital models - and measure the diameter of a loaded round (better yet, measure a number of rounds) at the case mouth. The SAAMI standard for the .40S&W is 0.4230 inches.

Dick,
I appreciate you "sounding" like Mother Hen.. I really do. I take this seriously and I don't want to harm myself OR my guns. In my Lyman 48 Reloader manual it has 180gr JHP with 1.115 COL (shorter than what I used for sure) and a start of 5.0 gr of 231 with a max of 5.6. I'm making an assumption that with my longer COL and starting at 5.0gr and moving up to 5.4 I'd be safe. I realize that I'm not using the exact same bullet but I figured based on the fact it's a HP, it must go into the case the same if not more than my FMJ 180gr bullet does.


I'll verify that case taper with calipers for my next batch for sure. I do have calipers. I know I didn't remove ALL the belling so I'm sure I have room to go.. I was just being cautious as I didn't want too much crimp. Feeding was perfect- I'll do the hand press test. I can tell you that I test a bullet in a case with no primer or powder. I use an ineria hammer to remove the bullet after.... it wasn't easy to get out.

Thanks for the help... I do appreciate everyone's posts.

 

[GTOShootr]

Add a chronograph to your list of things to get. You can go by the books, go by people's recommendations, and by how the rounds feel and what you see but having some numbers for reference to your particular gun is the next step and most objective test (of course, chronos aren't infallible either). It sounds like you are doing well though and will probably have even more fun playing with a chrono. Try TiteGroup for all three when you run out of 231. I also suggest a CED chrono, it works and stores your data in .txt files you can save on your computer.

 

[Lugnut]

Add a chronograph to your list of things to get. You can go by the books, go by people's recommendations, and by how the rounds feel and what you see but having some numbers for reference to your particular gun is the next step and most objective test (of course, chronos aren't infallible either). It sounds like you are doing well though and will probably have even more fun playing with a chrono. Try TiteGroup for all three when you run out of 231. I also suggest a CED chrono, it works and stores your data in .txt files you can save on your computer.

Thanks GTO. I do tend to like a lot of different data points. I can see a chono in my future...

 

[M1911]

I also suggest a CED chrono

+1

That's what I use. Nice piece of equipment. Very easy to use. Easily computes power factor for IDPA/IPSC.

 

[Lugnut]

Silly question.... none of this needs to be set up downrange does it? Looks like a nice tool to have.

 

[M1911]

It sure does. You shoot through the open, triangular spaces created by the sky screens. The system knows how far apart the screens are, and the screens register the shadow of the bullet passing through them, so it knows the time difference betweeen the start and stop screens. Simple division gives feet per second.

Yes, people do shoot the screens now and then. They're made of plastic and are replaceable.

You are supposed to be about 10' uprange of the sky screens. I'm usually closer than that. You do have to use care to 1) not hit the sky screens and 2) hit the backstop.

 

[Dick]

If you get an adjustable tripod and take the time to set things up carefully (not always possible when others are using the range), you can bench-test your reloads for accuracy and velocity at the same time, and because the two are related you can learn more than doing either independently.

Modern chronographs are a strong contender for the shooting gadget that delivers the most knowledge and fun for the least money. My older relatively inexpensive - and crude by today's standards - PACT unit has worked flawlessly with all my rifles and pistols, even seeing (every time so far) a tiny .22 bullet traveling at over 4,000 fps out of my .22-250.

 

[Lugnut]

Well I bought some Power Pistol and made some more rounds tonight. 10 of each. We'll see how they shoot tomorrow hopefully! I must say this is fun.

.40 S&W Speer 180gr FMJ FN Power Pistol 1.130 6.2gr
.40 S&W Speer 180gr FMJ FN Power Pistol 1.130 6.5
.40 S&W Speer 180gr FMJ FN Power Pistol 1.130 6.8

.40 S&W Speer 180gr FMJ FN Winchester 231 1.130 5.2

9mm Winchester 124gr FMJ Power Pistol 1.150 5.6
9mm Winchester 124gr FMJ Power Pistol 1.150 6.0

 

[Lugnut]

Well.... I'm quite surprised. I didn't load and of the rounds to the max for 9mm and .40 with Power Pistol but at the starting loads they were plenty hot. I am kind of bummed that I don't have a chrono so I could only go by feel. I have about .4 gr more I "could" go according to the Speer manual but I see no need to at all. The 6.8gr load for the .40 S&W was pretty hot and had a heck of a flash. I think I'll stick with 6.2gr for that combo. I can also stick with 5.6gr of Power Pistol in the 9mm.

I am amazed that I can get what appears to be similar power from the starting load of Power Pistol compared to relatively high loads of 231 in both 9mm and .40.


Either way I think I like Power Pistol better than 231 in 9mm, slightly better than 231 in .40 S&W.

Next... .45... still waiting for my bullets for them. I have some Bulleye to try as well. Fun, fun, fun.

 

[Dick]

I am amazed that I can get what appears to be similar power from the starting load of Power Pistol compared to relatively high loads of 231 in both 9mm and .40.

Yes, that's exactly right - the burning characteristics and pressure curve of Power Pistol are better suited to these particular cartridges than W231. Looks like you're well on your way to not knowing if you reload so you can shoot more, or shoot so you can reload more. Welcome to the club.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Next... .45... still waiting for my bullets for them. I have some Bulleye to try as well. Fun, fun, fun.

You'll find that either of the three powders mentioned will work well for .45 ACP.

My favorite .45 ACP load is 5.5 grains of 231 with a 230gr FMJ.

I like Power Pistol for 10mm and use Bullseye for .38 SPL.

 

[M1911]

I tried 231 for 10mm, but got pressure signs long before I got the velocity that I wanted. I'm having better luck with WSF.