Questions for the old-timers

jarhead66 said:
There really weren't stores that sold only guns, they were just another item for sale. You could buy them at "The Western Auto" hardware, Sears and Roebucks, Kresge's, and a lot of Mom and Pop grocery stores. When we used to go back to Maine in the summer, the quickest way to get the kids out of your hair was to give each one a box of 50 22's and an old single shot and point them at the woods. 50 cents for a box of 50 22's in those days.

Prior to 1968 we bought a case of British Enfields (303 British). They came out of Burma. 12 rifles to a case and it worked out to less than $15 a rifle including the shipping. No government entity involved. No government entity had any knowledge of what you owned, nor did they have the right to even ask.

You used to be able to buy 6.5 Jap Arisakas from the back pages of magazines, much like they sell Viagra nowadays. When I was in Jr. High (not middle school) one of our more industrious German students had ordered a pen with a little bolt action .22 on the back of it. He shot himself in the hand with it in Geography one day. No lock down, no evacuation of the school or the county we just sat there and the nurse took him out. He was back in school a couple of days later. I think he did get detention though. Ah, the good old days.
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This!!!

We use to carry our .22 rifles to school, stack them in the corner of the room, retrieve them at the end of the day and go plinking in the sand pit behind and ON school property. I boarded a DC-3 open carrying a S&W .38 Special and flew from Shreveport to San Antonio. No one said a word. No one batted an eye. Stopped at a bank to deposit some money open carrying. No one said a thing. In high school and college small arms and high powered markmanship were REQUIRED to graduate (so was fencing and archery).
 
Oh and when I grew up in Chemsfid during the 50's and 60's there was no such thing as assault rifles...never mind a ban on them. In Basic (1972) my M-16 was a firearm, a rifle, or a weapon. Calling it a gun cost some 25 push ups. I don't think the drill sergeant would know what I was talking about if I called it an assault weapon.

It's just ridiculous these days calling a semi auto an assault rifle anyway. It just serves to demonize firearms which I suppose is the purpose.

I do remember Ma and Dad buying me a Daisy Red Rider on my 12th birthday which was 1960. I did some roaming on the farm with it. That's for sure. Those were some great days. I'm just glad I got a chance to thank that older cousin, that I mentioned in my previous post, before he passed away this year. Continuing on ... I remember I wrote an essay for freshman college English in 1966 where I described how my childhood "roaming" lands were taken over by houses. That's about when this foolishness started ...when people lost their ties to the land in MA. It's starting in NH too. The farmers are either getting too old to farm or realizing selling their land gives them more money. I do some heavy reminiscing in the morning especially since I lost my brother a few weeks ago. I guess it must be cathartic. I'm going for a walk. Yiogo
 
(Old enough to remember but don't, and I don't think there was the "outrage" we exclaim (here) today about such things.)

I remember guns hanging on the wall.

I remember unlocked, glass-door gun cabinets.

I remember ammo stored in nightstands and glove compartments and above workbenches.

I remember shooting unsupervised as a youth.

I remember, and I don't know if this is old age playing tricks, men going to early church services and leaving their rifles in the back pew. Then they'd collect them and head out to hunt...Maybe I dreamt that one...
 
Gibbs said:
(Old enough to remember but don't, and I don't think there was the "outrage" we exclaim (here) today about such things.)

I remember guns hanging on the wall.

I remember unlocked, glass-door gun cabinets.

I remember ammo stored in nightstands and glove compartments and above workbenches.

I remember shooting unsupervised as a youth.

I remember, and I don't know if this is old age playing tricks, men going to early church services and leaving their rifles in the back pew. Then they'd collect them and head out to hunt...Maybe I dreamt that one...
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I believe it.

Also, Maine has a law that REQUIRES you to take your shotgun to church in case of native American attack!
 
I can remember my dad's friends from the gun club going out on night shoots. They had their homemade miners cap lights and ankle protectors and their pistols. They would head over to the town dump and setup a firing line, on a short count it's lights on and shoot rats.

Those were the good old days...[rofl]
 
Marcus99 said:
These were before my time but I've always wondered what the climate was like back then. Has anyone been around long enough to remember before these pieces of legislation?
Before the '94 AWB
  • Was the '94 AWB a surprise or did a lot of gun owners see it coming?
  • I've heard it was the AWB that actually increased popularity of AR's/AK's/etc. How common were they before the ban?
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Everybody saw the AWB coming, Democrats had been pushing for legislation for a while, and the NRA and GOA used the possibility of a ban in their fundraising starting with the presidential election (Clinton) if not sooner. Still, I think people didn't really believe it would pass (the margin was just 2 votes).

I don't think the ban made post-ban AKs popular, but it definitely created a pre-ban buying frenzy and a hole in the market that was filled by neutered AR clones with ban-complaint features. More than anything else, the magazine limit launched the development of smaller 10-round pistols and the move away from the wonder-nine to larger calibers -- if you are designing a new pistol and can only have 10 rounds in your newly manufactured magazine, might as well get the most bang possible in those 10 rounds.

For most people, the one real impact of the ban was a sudden jump in the price of pre-ban rifles and pre-ban magazines.
 
DJ_99Wing said:
I can remember my dad's friends from the gun club going out on night shoots. They had their homemade miners cap lights and ankle protectors and their pistols. They would head over to the town dump and setup a firing line, on a short count it's lights on and shoot rats.

Those were the good old days...[rofl]
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What town did this happen in ? Sounds like they were doing a public service and having fun at the same time.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Small group because of the NFA issues and, in MA, green card requirement. The big difference was price. Back in 1985, a registered AR15 autosear was about $200, and a HK94 converted to MP5 full auto (HK did not sell full autos to civilian scum, but there was a thriving legal conversion business) by one of the big names like Flemming would run about $1700.
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Thanks Rob. I remember reading that a lot of companies (for instance Colt) only sold FA to LEO/Mil, so it was rare for civilians to be able to get OEM FA straight from the manufacturer, hence the many conversions you see when looking at various MG's.

Does anyone remember what happened to prices following Hughes? Did they just immediately skyrocket, slowly creep up or did it take a while for savvy investors to catch on to the potential for enormous profit?
 
Not sure if this counts, becuase they may still do it, I don't know..but back when I was a boyscout in the early 80's, we used to spend a week at Parker Mountain, in NH. I specifically remember the rifle range. They had single shot .22's and one "trap" station. The smell of .22 shells still takes me back there!

Does anyone know if the BSA still lets the young tikes shoot? Oh my, can you Imagine! I would Highly doubt it...but I don't really know!
 
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Marcus99 said:
Thanks Rob. I remember reading that a lot of companies (for instance Colt) only sold FA to LEO/Mil, so it was rare for civilians to be able to get OEM FA straight from the manufacturer, hence the many conversions you see when looking at various MG's.

Does anyone remember what happened to prices following Hughes? Did they just immediately skyrocket, slowly creep up or did it take a while for savvy investors to catch on to the potential for enormous profit?
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They bumped up initially, but the bulk of their rise has been a slow steady march and after an Obama peak and then drop off they are back to it.

I think a fair number of people who were aware of it assumed it would go away eventually and up to that point it just had not been an interesting market. It was a big tax in 1980's dollars and only die hard gun nuts wanted it at that point (myself included). Historically speaking stupidity in US legislation usually subsides to a degree in 10 years.

To that point, the whole gun culture of the US had been in decline for a while. Obviously the attempts to ban handguns in the 70s were a low point, but overall public opinion remained hostile to "military style" weapons from what saw at the time. Even in free states the attitude was bitterly apathetic to them. Movies and TV were either openly hostile or subltey brain washing. Comm v. Davis was no coincidence. The establishment thought it had the votes to ban guns, so the MA SJC cleared the way.

The NRA was cowering behind "hunter's rights" by the time the Clinton ban came around and could not make a case for "military style" weapons. So the media, Brady and democrats ran with it.

The hostility toward guns and self defense leading up to the AWB can be seen in movies like Death Wish based on an early 70's book by a former anti IIRC and then the mid 70's movie followed. It continued to get worse after that obviously. Even hunting became a target of the media/Hollywood which pushed the NRA further back on its heels.

From my perspective, even in a southern free state at the time, it would have been hard to imagine in the early 90s that we would see a black rifle renaissance like we have now or the success of the CCW movement from the late 80's to now.

It was the reaction in the southern and flyover states to the ban pushed by the costal blue states that laid the ground work for this success. I think it woke people up. Low and sinking congressional approval rates have also got people thinking about the balance of power and who works for whom.

Just from what I have seen, we hit a trough not only on the gun issue, but on self reliance as a whole with the baby boomer/yuppy generations. We are climbing out, but it is a deep hole.
 
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The 1994 AWB was controversial and was a big deal in the media. A lot of people didn't read the details and the world was a bit Fudd'er then than now. I couldn't get my club interested or riled up because the Govt were not going after 'their' gun. I use to get the evil eye when I brought my bushmaster to the range in 1991. After voting for George H.W. Bush in 1992 I drove to Windam Maine and picked up another AR15 and a dozen 30 round mags.

The bill was signed in September of 1994 and took effect January of 1995. During that 4 month gap AR lowers, AK, 10+ round mags were back ordered like crazy. I paid the ridiculous price of $130 for a stripped lower from an honest to goodness kitchen table dealer, at his kitchen table. Prior to the discussion on the law no one had more than one spare mag for each gun. Rob B made a posting on MA-Firearm-Digest the day the bill passed, I left work early and cleaned out Four Seasons, The Coin Gallery and AAA police supply in Dedham. I got home with a new AK and 20 Glock mags for guns I didn't own thinking I was crazy. The next week I was mad at myself for not buying more

The political fall out was to swing the house to the republicans, including two from MA. As soon as gun owners were told they couldn't have something, they wanted them. Everyone had to have an AR and when they realized that a bayo lug didn't matter and the market was flooded with pre ban mags from around the world they were off to the races.

The AR is the #1 selling rifle in North America, everyone at my club has one or more with lots of mags. The authors of the AWB should be awarded the Assault Weapon Sales Person of the century.
 
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rep308 said:
The 1994 AWB was controversial and was a big deal in the media. A lot of people didn't read the details and the world was a bit Fudd'er then than now. I couldn't get my club interested or riled up because the Govt were not going after 'their' gun. I use to get the evil eye when I brought my bushmaster to the range in 1991. After voting for George H.W. Bush in 1992 I drove to Windam Maine and picked up another AR15 and a dozen 30 round mags.

The bill was signed in September of 1994 and took effect January of 1995. During that 4 month gap AR lowers, AK, 10+ round mags were back ordered like crazy. I paid the ridiculous price of $130 for a stripped lower from an honest to goodness kitchen table dealer, at his kitchen table. Prior to the discussion on the law no one had more than one spare mag for each gun. Rob B made a posting on MA-Firearm-Digest the day the bill passed, I left work early and cleaned out Four Seasons, The Coin Gallery and AAA police supply in Dedham. I got home with a new AK and 20 Glock mags for guns I didn't own thinking I was crazy. The next week I was mad at myself for not buying more

The political fall out was to swing the house to the republicans, including two from MA. As soon as gun owners were told they couldn't have something, they wanted them. Everyone had to have an AR and when they realized that a bayo lug didn't matter and the market was flooded with pre ban mags from around the world they were off to the races.

The AR is the #1 selling rifle in North America, everyone at my club has one or more with lots of mags. The authors of the AWB should be awarded the Assault Weapon Sales Person of the century.
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I think buying mags was the smartest call. Mags are what make the difference. All the ammo isn't worth anything if you've only got one mag to use it in.

Stack 'em high, deep and loaded.
 
rep308 said:
The AR is the #1 selling rifle in North America, everyone at my club has one or more with lots of mags. The authors of the AWB should be awarded the Assault Weapon Sales Person of the century.
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No, they should be deported. I am not a fan of giving the power to revoke citizenship, but I will make an exception for a politician who violates the Bill of Rights.
 
cekim said:
No, they should be [STRIKE=deported]deported[/STRIKE] shot. I am not a fan of [STRIKE=giving the power to revoke citizenship]giving the power to revoke citizenship[/STRIKE] summary execution, but I will make an exception for a [STRIKE=politician]politician[/STRIKE] traitor who [STRIKE=violates the Bill of Rights]violates the Bill of Rights[/STRIKE] commits treason.
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FIFY
 
Thanks for sharing everyone. It seems to me at least (from the perspective of someone who wasn't around then) that those periods were kind of bitter-sweet in a number of ways. I really appreciate these stories, please keep them coming.

cekim said:
I think a fair number of people who were aware of it assumed it would go away eventually and up to that point it just had not been an interesting market. It was a big tax in 1980's dollars and only die hard gun nuts wanted it at that point (myself included). Historically speaking stupidity in US legislation usually subsides to a degree in 10 years.
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You mean people actually thought Hughes would simply "go away"? I suppose at the time it could be possible to think that, but it seems like now there is little reason to believe it would ever be repealed.

rep308 said:
I couldn't get my club interested or riled up because the Govt were not going after 'their' gun. I use to get the evil eye when I brought my bushmaster to the range in 1991.
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I've heard that before and it is truly sad [sad2]
 
Marcus99 said:
You mean people actually thought Hughes would simply "go away"? I suppose at the time it could be possible to think that, but it seems like now there is little reason to believe it would ever be repealed.
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Call it denial or wishful thinking, but bans have come and gone many times...

The political ninnies get their panties in a bunch and government bans something to silence the squeaky wheel, after a few years they get tired of it and someone interested in making a buck off it lobbies congress to either let it sunset or repeal it quietly on page 700 of this bill or that.

I think it was a two part problem, as previously mentioned, the gun culture was really in disarray in addition to the progressive push for rainbows, unicorns and "gun-free" societies. Fudds and apathy dominated on "our side." As you have seen in this thread, people had a dim view of black rifles, so you were "out there" if you went one step further to FA. I remember being baffled that people were reading "hunter's rights" into the Constitution. Unless you are hunting people, it just isn't in there.

The progressive push really was global and pervasive and included this silly idea that we could "disarm" and you have seen this taken to its extreme in the UK, Australia and Canada. Even in the last 15 years there has been a profound shift compared to what I remember in the late 80's (towards "gun-friendly" popular culture).
 
I remember me and my friends walking up to Lew Hortons after a couple of hours at Modelville Hobby back in the 60's. They had racks of used rifles and shotguns you could pick up and look over with cases off ammo and all things hunting spread around. Nobody said boo as long as you were respectful and used common sense. We bought a lot of stuff there over the years and were sad to see them close.My dad gave me my first gun a 20 ga. 870 from Bob Smiths for my 14th Christmas, boy was I suprised. We used to go over to Smiths owner's house and shoot hand thrown clays out his back door. When I moved to where we live now those same friends would come over and we shoot clays behind my barn, sure can't do that any more. For my crowd guns were a recreation not a passion.
 
I remember the sporting goods section of the Sears near Kenmore Square had bins of shotgun shells just sitting out loose, in the early 70's.
 
With all these memories, know this one fact............ It will happen again and will be worse. The National bans have come and gone and will come again. They came here in MA but never left and that is what worries me more than anything else.

The days of shooting woodchucks from my sister's bedroom window with my father trying to save the garden, buying my first new shotgun at the local gun club that had a club FFL, buying my first handgun at the Mart in Grafton, and like someone else said, shooting rats at the dump are all gone. We will loose more and I fear it will be soon.
 
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Marcus99 said:
These were before my time but I've always wondered what the climate was like back then. Has anyone been around long enough to remember before these pieces of legislation?

Before the '94 AWB
  • Was the '94 AWB a surprise or did a lot of gun owners see it coming?
  • I've heard it was the AWB that actually increased popularity of AR's/AK's/etc. How common were they before the ban?


Before Hughes in '86
  • Were FA's sold on the shelf right alongside everything else, or were they tucked away in the VIP room so-to-speak?
  • How common was FA before the number was capped in May of that year? Meaning, if you had an AR was it pretty much a given that you'd send in the paperwork to make it FA, or was it still a small group of folks who were into that?
  • I've heard that once people heard about Hughes in April there was a scramble by manufacturers that nearly doubled the registry. Since gun forums weren't around in those days, was there any type of a collective effort by gun owners to register as many MG's as possible? For instance, where guys cranking out lightening links and such during the one month period?
  • What was going on in the media at the time; was there any widespread criticism of Hughes or an effort to prevent it from taking effect?
  • How backlogged was the ATF following Hughes? I.E., for how many months (or years) after May 19, 1986 was the bureau processing paperwork for registration of new MG's?
  • How did MG prices change 1 day/1 week/1 month/1 year/3 years/etc. after Hughes? Did prices just immediately skyrocket?


Before 1968 GCA
  • Did gun stores serve any special purpose besides simply selling guns? It's my understanding you could order through the mail and conduct interstate sales without an FFL before the '68 GCA, so where gun stores more or less prominent back then?
  • Before the import restrictions imposed by the '68 GCA was it possible to basically order any foreign gun, be it semi or full auto, and have it shipped to your front door?

I also have a few questions on the 1934 NFA but I figured there's no one on NES that old [smile]
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My take... @86 and on... FA was NEVER common, there were always a few places that would have one visible. And the thought of PAYING $100-200 for an HK sear and then Having to spend $200 to register it seemed absolutely absurd..

But '94 Clinton made all these black guns popular. They were generally available, AR's, AKs/ SKS, M1As and a few HKs and oddities around. But they were not the high movers. As soon as hints about the ban started that whole market exploded. People then actually started to realize what a good thing they were and continued to buy them.
 
Prior to 1994 hardly anyone I knew had ARs and I didn't know a single person with an AK - and I was in the Army and knew a lot of gun nuts. Many others have said it, but the first AWB made black rifles something everyone wanted, not just your hardcore gun nuts.

"Back in my day" which was Maine in the 1980s, everyone who had a pick-up truck at school had a rifle and/or a shotgun hanging in the back window (I had a Buick, so mine was on the floor in the back). If you had tried to outlaw bringing guns to school, you wouldn't have had any boys in the school for the whole month of November because they all hunted before and after school so we needed guns with us or we would miss valuable hunting time having to bring the guns home or pick them up after school. It would have been easier to just skip.
 

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