Question about scopes/rings and learning how to shoot at distance

[sweetjeep]

Hey guys,

I have a couple quesitons here:

1) Rings: Are good scope rings REALLY worth it? If so, why? I have always bought "generic"/cheap rings. I happen to like "high" or "extra high" rings, i guess to make my stupid shaped head more comfortable. But I have also never spent more than $20 (or so) on a set. Am I setting myself up for failure?

2) I've never had the chance to look through/use a REALLY good scope. The best I have had and used is a low end Leupold. I've recently bought a couple of the Nikon Prostaff's from Dick's. (for an AR and a .17), I wonder am I really handicapping myself or am I shooting well within the capabilities of these things?

3) And the big question - Aside from going to an Appleseed (which I am hoping to do in October) is there a good tutorial or book or something I can do to get a better "grip" on positioning and things to do to be more accurate? Tips on positioning etc. I am pretty OK on the basics (breath control, trigger control etc.)

 

[mike01824]

To piggy back off your questions... How do I know what profile scope rings to use with a certain gun/scope? Is the correct profile based on the gun or the scope?

 

[meth0d]

From my understanding, it's worth it to pay a little extra for quality rings & bases. I'm sure there are a dozen other reasons, but these 2 stick out as important to me:

- stronger/more durable materials; hold up to recoil & general abuse better, less likely to get knocked out of zero

- tighter machining tolerances; which in turn lead to better scope alignment and less risk of damaging your scope from non-concentric rings

As far as your second question; you definitely get what you pay for with scopes. The higher end scopes have better glass, which gives you better light transmission, sharper images, and edge to edge clarity. They also have accurate, repeatable adjustments, and should stand up better to recoil.

As far as classes, I know Sig offers a scoped rifle class, and I think Weaponcraft does as well. I haven't taken either of them so I can't comment on how good they are.

Also check out snipershide.com and snipercentral.com, their forums are pretty helpful, lots of info there.

 

[nheric]

Good scope rings are worth it buy good quailty steel rings .
cheep rings = poor machining can cause canting , uneven clamping. Cheep alluminum rings can also have there threads stripped out just by torquing to proper torque .

Nikon makes good glass will be good for the weekend shooter from close to intermedate ranges. 50 to 500 yards

always shoot at the lowest power setting possible to see your target

On postioning few tips:
In prone stay relaxed keep your hips relaxed and have as much contact with the ground as possible (think rag doll) keep inline with the rifle and spread legs slighly
use a rut sack to support or something your upper body do not use your elbows for support, this reduces muscle strain thus reduces shaking greatly
Use the same cheek weld every time( use a piece of mole skin to mark your cheeck point on stock)
rest your cheek on the stock while relaxing your neck use the stock to support your head.
Use a rear bean bag support the stock , and sandwich the stock between your cheek and the bag
squeeze the bean bag with your support hand to lower muzzle relax grip to raise muzzle
do not grip the stock with trigger hands thumb run thumb along the side one the stock will help greatly with trigger pull

Bench:
use same cheeking mechanics a prone relax neck
use front and rear bags
do not use elbows for support
do not over grip the stock with trigger hand

Hope this helped a little

 

[gulfmp]

To the OP, nheric from the prior post has a long range shooting class that covers these questions and more for a very modest cost. I highly recommend it.

 

[Jasper]

fair warning, looking through a high end optics spoils you.

I have a leupold mark 4 LRT on my "sniper" rig (8.5-25x50mm)...great glass

I've also got a NightForce 8-32NXS coming...I was *very* spoiled after I got a chance to look through one of those.


as far as shooting/technique/practice/training....what's the end goal? bench rest requires a very specific skill set...which is VERY much different from shooting prone/supported from a bipod (a la, a field rig...something you might use to set up an impromptu shot out in a wide open field or something)....and both vary VERY much from a prone supported position with a sling.

 

[G Smith]

To the OP, nheric from the prior post has a long range shooting class that covers these questions and more for a very modest cost. I highly recommend it.

There is a NRA Approved Mid Range Prone Match this Saturday at Nashua Fish and Game.

All shooters / rifles are welcome to shoot as long as all shots can be kept on paper.

This is a good opportunity for the Appleseed shooters or anyone that wants to test their rifle & skills from the prone position at 300, 500 and 600 yards.

Anyone other than the regulars that shoot these matches interested?
(Of course the regulars are welcome too...

Full Match Bulletin @ http://www.nfga.org/highpower/pdfs/2012 Mid Range Prone Matches.pdf

George

 

[sweetjeep]

Thanks guys..

Mike: I can answer your question. The physics answer is - you want it as low as possible. If you were to draw a triangle from the target to the firing pin to your eye.. you want that triangle to have the narrowest base possible. Technically speaking if you could aim through the bore, that would be optimal. Basically the short/dirty reason is the smaller the base of the triangle the "closer" you will be to your point of aim over a greater distance. Picture if your barrel was 20' away pointed at a bullseye and you are looking through an optic. Your sightline and the bull converge at EXACTLY ONE point. And in this case you are never even close to convergence. If you were to aim with the bore "technically" you are converged for the entire flight path (negating gravity). So from a precision standpoint, you want your optic as close to the barrel as possible. If you are 1" up from the barrel, you still only converge at exactly one point, but you're really close for a long way. For example at 100 yards, if you are shooting a 1" bull and the optic and the center of the barrel are 1" apart, you are always going to be dead on. In real life does a 1" lift matter? I suppose it might, but I don't know when that comes in to play.

Meth0d: Thanks! I am little afraid to ask this comment on Snipershide/central for fear of "being the new guy" and they have a lot of information that I haven't really been able to parse as yet.

nheric: Thanks. But I'm thrown by the comment "don't grip the stock with the trigger hand"... what am I supposed to do then? Just friction enough to be able to pull the trigger?

You also mentioned bean bags (or other rests). This is a thought I have had.. this isn't considered "cheating"? Is this "how it's done"? A comment in a moment will explain my "concern".

Jasper: Really? There is that kind of difference with good glass huh? Hmm.. I have seen (owned) absolute bullcrap glass and "homeowner" stuff like I have now, but there is really a similar difference as it gets more expensive?

What's my goal? I want to do it because it's hard. Honestly I don't know what's considered "hard". If shooting prone with a bipod at 500 yards is "the goal".. than that's my goal. If a bipod and a rear sand bag is "hard" at 750 yards.. that's my goal. I don't have a true goal, just hit things with a bullet a long way away in a fashion that is considered "legit". For example, I don't think it would be legit to setup a sled aim it 1600 yards and consider myself a badass.

I guess mainly my goal is to shoot as far as I can with a bipod/prone. For some reason that seems like.. uuhh.. it's realistic, or realizable. I am not sure what "a long way" is at this point. 100 yards isn't. I don't THINK 400 yards is either (keep in mind, I CANNOT shoot that far! ). That's kind of there I am. I want to do it because it's hard.

GSmith: thanks for that. I can't go, but I'll check the link for another match and check it out.

 

[Redstone1]

I use these on a couple of my rifles and they've held up very well.

http://www.dnzproducts.com/game-reaper-mounts

 

[nheric]

Sweetjeep
wrapping your grip around the stock can cause you to squeeze with the whole hand and not just the trigger finger. This can cause or exaggerate a poor pull on the trigger . Use your last 3 fingers to pull the stock snugly into your shoulder pocket and slowly pull the trigger straight back to the rear . If sounds awkward but give it a try get out your rifle and do some dry firing in the prone position using this grip. I have seen this simple tip tighten up many groups.

I would think not using a rear bean bag would be cheating a yourself out of a solid shooting position. You can make a home made bean bag by filling a sock with dried beans or air soft bbs.
Place the bag under the stock at the rear sling area squeeze the bag the bag will get taller and push up on the stock and thus will lower the muzzle. Relax your grip the bag will get shorter and the muzzle will rise.
Once again take out the rifle get in prone, support the forehand of the stock, and then try using a the bean bag to see how it feels.

 

[nheric]

There is a NRA Approved Mid Range Prone Match this Saturday at Nashua Fish and Game.

All shooters / rifles are welcome to shoot as long as all shots can be kept on paper.

This is a good opportunity for the Appleseed shooters or anyone that wants to test their rifle & skills from the prone position at 300, 500 and 600 yards.

Anyone other than the regulars that shoot these matches interested?
(Of course the regulars are welcome too...

Full Match Bulletin @ http://www.nfga.org/highpower/pdfs/2012 Mid Range Prone Matches.pdf

George

I wish i could attend i miss all the fun stuff do to mandatory Saturdays at work [sad2] I wish some of the events and shoots were held on Sundays.

 

[mike01824]

Thanks guys..

Mike: I can answer your question. The physics answer is - you want it as low as possible. If you were to draw a triangle from the target to the firing pin to your eye.. you want that triangle to have the narrowest base possible. Technically speaking if you could aim through the bore, that would be optimal. Basically the short/dirty reason is the smaller the base of the triangle the "closer" you will be to your point of aim over a greater distance. Picture if your barrel was 20' away pointed at a bullseye and you are looking through an optic. Your sightline and the bull converge at EXACTLY ONE point. And in this case you are never even close to convergence. If you were to aim with the bore "technically" you are converged for the entire flight path (negating gravity). So from a precision standpoint, you want your optic as close to the barrel as possible. If you are 1" up from the barrel, you still only converge at exactly one point, but you're really close for a long way. For example at 100 yards, if you are shooting a 1" bull and the optic and the center of the barrel are 1" apart, you are always going to be dead on. In real life does a 1" lift matter? I suppose it might, but I don't know when that comes in to play.

Ahhh that all makes sense! Thanks for the scientific explanation. Should I go with low profile over medium then? I assume there must be some need to go with a higher profile tho...? I was going to get medium profile because I figured I'm a middle of the road shooter. Haha.

 

[Jasper]

the MRP matches @ Nashua are fun as hell. I'll be up there practicing at that match (I have an invite to shoot on the new england mini-palma team this year)

in all honesty...if you want to chase something because its hard...thats fine...but why not chase something thats hard....that earns you something at the end

NRA Highpower, Across The Course competition (200/300/600 yard 3 position), High Master (scoring 97%+ consistently in competition)
Distinguished Riflemen. LOTS of info on this one, but it's *not* an easy goal to accomplish
President's 100. Finish in the top 100 in the Presidents 100 rifle match @ Nationals. no-sighter match, no BS/have your shit together on game day.


getting all 3, with a service rifle...literally took more mental toughness than I thought I had...but its been literally the most satisfying goal i've ever accomplished.

 

[Jasper]

Ahhh that all makes sense! Thanks for the scientific explanation. Should I go with low profile over medium then? I assume there must be some need to go with a higher profile tho...? I was going to get medium profile because I figured I'm a middle of the road shooter. Haha.

scope ring height is a function of what scope you're using, and what rifle its going on. I'm not super familiar with what every rifle requires, but I know I needed "high" rings for the scope to clear the Badger rail on my Remington 700, and NightForce told me I'll need either "high" or "extra/super high" to clear the 20MOA base/picatinny rail on my McMillan.

other than that, get the body of the scope as low to the receiver/rail as you can.

 

[sweetjeep]

Ahhh that all makes sense! Thanks for the scientific explanation. Should I go with low profile over medium then? I assume there must be some need to go with a higher profile tho...? I was going to get medium profile because I figured I'm a middle of the road shooter. Haha.

From a physics (is optics physics or something else??) standpoint, you want as low as possible. From a comfort standpoint, that may not be such a simple question. Thus far, I have decided that if I am more comfortable I will shoot better.

 

[sweetjeep]

the MRP matches @ Nashua are fun as hell. I'll be up there practicing at that match (I have an invite to shoot on the new england mini-palma team this year)

in all honesty...if you want to chase something because its hard...thats fine...but why not chase something thats hard....that earns you something at the end

~image edited out~

NRA Highpower, Across The Course competition (200/300/600 yard 3 position), High Master (scoring 97%+ consistently in competition)
Distinguished Riflemen. LOTS of info on this one, but it's *not* an easy goal to accomplish
President's 100. Finish in the top 100 in the Presidents 100 rifle match @ Nationals. no-sighter match, no BS/have your shit together on game day.


getting all 3, with a service rifle...literally took more mental toughness than I thought I had...but its been literally the most satisfying goal i've ever accomplished.

I agree. But I'm not necessarily in it for the awards. That's not what's driving me. Awards DO make things better.. pretty much always. And I am inclined to compete in pretty much everything. But right now... today.. I am pretty much confident I suck. I am certain I suck.

 

[sweetjeep]

Sweetjeep
wrapping your grip around the stock can cause you to squeeze with the whole hand and not just the trigger finger........

I would think not using a rear bean bag would be cheating a yourself out of a solid shooting position. You can make a home made bean bag by filling a sock with dried beans or air soft bbs.

Thanks again. I'll try the grip trick, I am planning to head to the range tomorrow.

I guess what I meant by "cheating" is.. for example is this an accepted competition method? Or is this just a crutch and really I need to learn how to be stable myself. I'm not saying I won't try it anyway, and I can see where it's a solid idea.

I think what my brain is forcing me to think is that if I'm out shooting - it's me and the rifle.. and that's it. Though this kind of seems a little silly. Picture this.. I'm out hunting I have the opportunity for a loooong shot, but I don't have my sandbag. If I prepared differently would this still be a non-issue or am I marrying myself to using a bag? I guess I am trying to be practical too.

That make any more sense or is it getting too late for me to be behind a keyboard.

 

[[cerberus]]

the MRP matches @ Nashua are fun as hell. I'll be up there practicing at that match (I have an invite to shoot on the new england mini-palma team this year)

in all honesty...if you want to chase something because its hard...thats fine...but why not chase something thats hard....that earns you something at the end

NRA Highpower, Across The Course competition (200/300/600 yard 3 position), High Master (scoring 97%+ consistently in competition)
Distinguished Riflemen. LOTS of info on this one, but it's *not* an easy goal to accomplish
President's 100. Finish in the top 100 in the Presidents 100 rifle match @ Nationals. no-sighter match, no BS/have your shit together on game day.


getting all 3, with a service rifle...literally took more mental toughness than I thought I had...but its been literally the most satisfying goal i've ever accomplished.

Yep, this is where I want to be. Maybe not exactly these three, since I am not exactly familiar with high power and it's different classes, but a top end shooter again. I was on my way then I left school, left training and got side tracked with work.

 

[nheric]

Thanks again. I'll try the grip trick, I am planning to head to the range tomorrow.

I guess what I meant by "cheating" is.. for example is this an accepted competition method? Or is this just a crutch and really I need to learn how to be stable myself. I'm not saying I won't try it anyway, and I can see where it's a solid idea.

I think what my brain is forcing me to think is that if I'm out shooting - it's me and the rifle.. and that's it. Though this kind of seems a little silly. Picture this.. I'm out hunting I have the opportunity for a loooong shot, but I don't have my sandbag. If I prepared differently would this still be a non-issue or am I marrying myself to using a bag? I guess I am trying to be practical too.

That make any more sense or is it getting too late for me to be behind a keyboard.

I guess what I meant by "cheating" is.. for example is this an accepted competition method? Or is this just a crutch and really I need to learn how to be stable myself. I'm not saying I won't try it anyway, and I can see where it's a solid idea.

I think what my brain is forcing me to think is that if I'm out shooting - it's me and the rifle.. and that's it. Though this kind of seems a little silly. Picture this.. I'm out hunting I have the opportunity for a loooong shot, but I don't have my sandbag. If I prepared differently would this still be a non-issue or am I marrying myself to using a bag? I guess I am trying to be practical too.

That make any more sense or is it getting too late for me to be behind a keyboard. [/QUOTE]

Bags the norm for long range precision shooting, a super stable platform is needed for Constancy. Even the use of a bi pod is fringed at. To quote Bruce Krell from shooters edge who trains professionals from around the world" bi-pods are effective shooting platforms is a myth" he teaches the use of bags.

If your out hunting and you have a chance for a loong shot i would hope you have the skill and an aid to help you stabilize the rifle to make an ethical kill if not do not take the shot . Hunting is where i learned the use of a rear bean bag i was lucky to have a hunting fanatic father who loved sheep and goat hunting and i got to take many trips with him when i was young . even today i use them to the day to hunt coyotes well out past 500 yards. They make bags for this purpose that tie or clip to your belt .

 

[mike01824]

From a physics (is optics physics or something else??) standpoint, you want as low as possible. From a comfort standpoint, that may not be such a simple question. Thus far, I have decided that if I am more comfortable I will shoot better.

Ahh thanks. I've only shot scope a couple of times. I just ordered both low and medium... we'll see what I prefer. Haha.

 

[Madball13]

I agree. But I'm not necessarily in it for the awards. That's not what's driving me. Awards DO make things better.. pretty much always. And I am inclined to compete in pretty much everything. But right now... today.. I am pretty much confident I suck. I am certain I suck.

I was in your shoes about 2 years ago had a rifle and a decent scope and decided i wanted to learn how to use it. I understand the concept of confirming zeros and bullet drop but wind drift is a tough concept to read up on in a book and apply it, you really need to put bullets down range to get it. I decided to shoot highpower after i attended the highpower clinic at Nashua. I realized to get where i wanted to be i had to learn the basics. Getting out and shooting highpower is really the way to go. I knew after shooting 600 yards for the first time with iron sights i was effective but all i was doing was cranking the elevation up to 600 and pulling the trigger and if i scored a 6 or a 7 it was because of the wind or poor position but i want to be accurate and i am learning as i go and compete.

Everything you learn in highpower directly translates to shooting a scoped rifle. I would encourage you to shoot the appleseed cause that will give you a good base of knowledge to start but it is definitely not the be all end all, go in with an open mind but don;t chug the kool aid. There is a HP clinic at Nashua on 9/22, great intro into HP that got me hooked last year.

 

[G Smith]

There is a HP clinic at Nashua on 9/22, great intro into HP that got me hooked last year.

Just to clarify

The Clinic @ NFGA coming up on 9/22/12 is intended for people that;
Have allready taken the beginner clinic
Own a Service Rifle and all the gear needed to compete.
Have an NRA Highpower Classification of Marksman or better.

We will (should) be doing another of the annual "beginner" clinics in April 2013.
In the April / Beginner clinic all equipment is available for loan during the clinic.

http://www.nfga.org/highpower/highpower.html

 

[Madball13]

Just to clarify

The Clinic @ NFGA coming up on 9/22/12 is intended for people that;
Have allready taken the beginner clinic
Own a Service Rifle and all the gear needed to compete.
Have an NRA Highpower Classification of Marksman or better.

We will (should) be doing another of the annual "beginner" clinics in April 2013.
In the April / Beginner clinic all equipment is available for loan during the clinic.

http://www.nfga.org/highpower/highpower.html

Good catch, I didn't see the fine print below.

 

[bpm990d]

I guess what I meant by "cheating" is.. for example is this an accepted competition method? Or is this just a crutch and really I need to learn how to be stable myself.

There are two different schools of thought.

Practical shooting in real life there is no such thing as a crutch. You use every advantage you can get. If that means bringing a shooting bench to where you are going to shoot from, that is what you do. For example there are some long range hunters that have portable benches, and basically have bench rest guns set up for shooting animals at long range.

Competition is typically a kabuki dance that has lots of rules and typically takes a significant amount of time to master the nuanced positions.

Both are valid. For example the military typically does not spend a lot of time teaching snipers and DM the off-hand position, but most rifle competition shooters spend a significant amount of time attempting to master it.

B

 

[bpm990d]

Yep, this is where I want to be. Maybe not exactly these three, since I am not exactly familiar with high power and it's different classes, but a top end shooter again. I was on my way then I left school, left training and got side tracked with work.

Where in Southern Maine are you? Sept. 8th is the Maine State HP champ. Do you have any shooting gear?

B

 

[Jasper]

George: if you need any help @ this one, I should be around.

Just to clarify

The Clinic @ NFGA coming up on 9/22/12 is intended for people that;
Have allready taken the beginner clinic
Own a Service Rifle and all the gear needed to compete.
Have an NRA Highpower Classification of Marksman or better.

We will (should) be doing another of the annual "beginner" clinics in April 2013.
In the April / Beginner clinic all equipment is available for loan during the clinic.

http://www.nfga.org/highpower/highpower.html

 

[G Smith]

George: if you need any help @ this one, I should be around.

Thanks Jeff!

Once David gets the head count on participants we'll know how many coaches we need.
If low numbers you can coach me ....

 

[Scarecrow]

Just got a Savage 116 in 30-60 with a 3-9x variable brunell scope on it, gonna try and see what I can do with it. I regularly shoot 39/40 or 40/40 during military qualifications with the m16a4 using iron sights; this thread is helpful for me to make the transition to scoped rifles... never would have guessed that much of the aiming and holding of the rifle would be discarded to fire long range with a scope.

 

[sweetjeep]

Thanks a lot for all the solid advice folks!!

 

[jasons]

I wish some of the events and shoots were held on Sundays.

There's an NRA 80 at Nashua on Sunday. In fact there's a match of some sort at either Nashua or Reading (or both) pretty much every Sunday during the rifle season.