Police firearm law knowledge

[Martlet]

Does the average cop know the basic firearm laws? Do you know what an FA 10 is? Do you know the rules regarding he transfer and ownership of firearms?

I had an unbelievable conversation with a PO today that raised some serious questions.

 

[Boghog1]

Does the average cop know the basic firearm laws? Do you know what an FA 10 is? Do you know the rules regarding he transfer and ownership of firearms?

I had an unbelievable conversation with a PO today that raised some serious questions.

the average NES poster that is a LEO in MA does, with a few exceptions.

 

[Ham Slam]

One of the most frustrating things is when you meet someone, and they start quoting police and gun shop owners on gun laws and they're all wrong. Then you try to explain to them to correct ones and they end the conversation with "they're cops I'm sure they know the law".

 

[swatgig]

There's really no reason a police officer should know the nuances of transferring ownership, unless they are transferring the gun. It's not something the cop on the street gets involved in.

On the other hand, a friend asked a Mass State Police officer if open carry was legal in Mass. The officer replied he would arrest him if he saw him open carrying. I don't know if he really would, or if he was just trying to scare him into not open carrying.

 

[OB1Kenobi]

the average NES poster that is a LEO in MA does, with a few exceptions.

^ this ^.

Its frightening when I talk to fellow troops on the Guard/Reserve side who are cops in real life. . Not just MA guys either.

 

[garandman]

The last time I got stopped with guns in the car, the MSP trooper (who was as friendly as could be under the circumstances) asked me to explain the MA laws on transportation of rifles. He waved his hands after a few minutes of explanation and let me off with a warning - not bad for passing a cruiser going 81 in a 55.

 

[OB1Kenobi]

The last time I got stopped with guns in the car, the MSP trooper (who was as friendly as could be under the circumstances) asked me to explain the MA laws on transportation of rifles. He waved his hands after a few minutes of explanation and let me off with a warning - not bad for passing a cruiser going 81 in a 55.

best for was showing a few tools to a guy in the parking lot of my old apt.

he saw me going inside with a rifle case and range bag. i waved casually (range bag in-hand) and he stopped, asked me if i was coming from "shoooooting"...

the rest was priceless.

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[mark056]

No most cops don't know the nuances of MA firearms law, IMO and based on my experience. Glidden wouldn't have a successful business peddling his book if they did.

Put another way however, the entire MGLs are complex and in need of total streamlining and reform. We are focused on guns and gun law here, truth of the matter is the average cop simply doesn't deal with gun laws on a regular basis that much. The same could be said for most attorneys as well. We are in serious need of total legal reform in this state, top to bottom, but most people don't realize it because they don't have that much interaction. with the legal system.


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[How]

All the MGL are posted online. The general laws of transportation are completely explained in MA law in MGL Chapter 140 S 131C. If in doubt, consult an attorney who specializes in guns. Put them on speed dial. Ambiguity in law creates police discretion. If you're a jerk to the officer, you'll likely get arrested because you're a jerk. If you're a good law abiding citizen and you're nice and it's an honest mistake, you'll probably walk away with a warning. Key point, don't be a jerk with your gun before or after the officer arrives and 99 out of 100 and you'll be ok.

 

[vipprimo]

I guess the more important question is, why should they know? The only time it's important is when you're breaking the law. Breaking the law with a firearm is pretty clear and usually entails breaking some other more clear laws at the same time (robbery, assault, etc.). I mean if you just knocked over a liquor store I'm not really concerned that your magazine can hold 15 instead of 10 bullets. Can you imagine in a hostage situation them asking, "sir, how many bullets are in the pistol?" lol

A call for a suspicious person is not an adequate reason to bring up firearm law either. They should just drive up, say hello, let you know they got a call of a suspicious person in the area, tell you to stop looking suspicious and drive away. lol Again, if the suspicious person is actually doing anything illegal then I think that was the whole reason for the call, right?

And btw, a call for a person with a rifle slung over their back just walking down the street is not a relevant suspicious person call to look at the person's firearm, while a "he was pointing it at my house" means you have a bigger problem, again we're not counting rounds are we?

I know officers that can't name what kind of sidearm they have or even what bullet it fires! They've also never used it in the line of duty and hope they never do. I mean I have a flashlight, but I don't know how batteries work or why the led is stronger than the old fashioned bulb. Yet it seems to do me fine. Of course the flashlight laws are a little more lax, but just making a point. I hope all you flashlights efecianados don't flame me too badly. lol

 

[Len-2A Training]

No most cops don't know the nuances of MA firearms law, IMO and based on my experience. Glidden wouldn't have a successful business peddling his book if they did.

Put another way however, the entire MGLs are complex and in need of total streamlining and reform. We are focused on guns and gun law here, truth of the matter is the average cop simply doesn't deal with gun laws on a regular basis that much. The same could be said for most attorneys as well. We are in serious need of total legal reform in this state, top to bottom, but most people don't realize it because they don't have that much interaction. with the legal system.

When Glidden first started his seminars (books were not included with the seminars back then) and the early editions of his book, I made a deal with him and was selling his book. I think it was ~$25 back then. I approached a number of police chiefs that I knew and tried to convince them that they should at least have one copy of the book at the PD for reference. All but one chief told me that they didn't need it and they got all the gun law info they needed from MCOPA!! That should tell us a lot! [Only chief that bought the book was the Easton Chief at an Ames R&P meeting and he was either a member or a frequent guest there. He was at a members meeting and asked me for the book.]

When I quit selling the book (4th Edition, he is up to 21st or 22nd now), Ron told me that I sold more books than anyone else (and he was also selling them in cop-shops back then)! When I quit I was getting push-back from folks that they already had an older version and didn't need another one, even though Ron added more and more interpretations, court cases that were relevant, CMRs, etc with each edition.

Now he has a deal with Municipal Police Institute (MPI), which I believe is an arm of MCOPA, where they publish the book for him and offer it with his seminar. He runs the seminar twice a year with a probable total of 4-500 LOs/chiefs in attendance. I'm sure that many are repeats either twice a year or every year and that is probably most of his book sales. About 1/2 those in attendance bag out at lunch time and don't return, treating it as 1/2 day off with pay instead of staying for the last 1/2 of the seminar. So that should tell you something about the true interest of POs in learning about MA gun laws or even learning about doing their job (since that seminar spends a lot of time on issues of licensing, the process, etc.).

 

[Boghog1]

All the MGL are posted online. The general laws of transportation are completely explained in MA law in MGL Chapter 140 S 131C. If in doubt, consult an attorney who specializes in guns. Put them on speed dial. Ambiguity in law creates police discretion. If you're a jerk to the officer, you'll likely get arrested because you're a jerk. If you're a good law abiding citizen and you're nice and it's an honest mistake, you'll probably walk away with a warning. Key point, don't be a jerk with your gun before or after the officer arrives and 99 out of 100 and you'll be ok.

if 99 out of a 100 planes arrived safe you could bet the airports would shut down, if 99 of 100 bank transactions were correct people would be lining up with pitchforks and torches.

 

[Palladin]

the three leo's I'm friendly with, two Lowell & Lawrence, don't have a clue

 

[ThePreBanMan]

I suspect there is a large number that just arrest first and let the DA sort it out later... But I'm always cynical of any agent of government.

Perhaps it's reasonable for law enforcement to misunderstand an entire area of the law.... I don't think so though.. They're establishing an arrest record(s) for potentially innocent people - they should know the law.

But I don't blame them, I blame their overseers. The law should be mandatory training.

 

[el duderino]

I know officers that can't name what kind of sidearm they have or even what bullet it fires! They've also never used it in the line of duty and hope they never do. I mean I have a flashlight, but I don't know how batteries work or why the led is stronger than the old fashioned bulb. Yet it seems to do me fine. Of course the flashlight laws are a little more lax, but just making a point. I hope all you flashlights efecianados don't flame me too badly. lol

They should know what it is and how to maintain it seeing as they carry it on a daily basis, nobodies asking them to learn the physics behind how guns operate. If they intend on enforcing laws they should know the laws and then get a second opinion.

 

[theGringo]

Outside our PD office here is a wall poster that contains the Mass gun laws. It's big, maybe 5x4 feet. You have to get up really close to make out the little letters in the text. At my age, I need my reading glasses to read it. And still, there are parts of the law that seem vague, or seem to be in conflict. Some parts of these laws will only have a clear meaning when you're standing before a judge, I think, and he'll probably be guessing. I think the state wants it to be confusing. Or, at least, they don't give a dam. The laws themselves seem to be designed to deter people from even applying from a license.

 

[mpd61]

I know officers that can't name what kind of sidearm they have or even what bullet it fires!

Really? how many exactly? What department(s) do they work for? Did you ask them both questions directly? Or did you segue into them while just conversing at the gas station? PAHLEEZE!!!!!!!!

 

[Another_David]

Does the average cop know the basic firearm laws? Do you know what an FA 10 is? Do you know the rules regarding he transfer and ownership of firearms?

I had an unbelievable conversation with a PO today that raised some serious questions.

from my experiences they know about the same as any Mass resident, which is another way of saying "no".

 

[WPDC13]

Simple answer..........NO! I make it a point to try to keep up and understand and learn. I constantly bounce things back and forth with my Gun Shop owner and between what the laws actually are and what the "interpretation" of the day are, there really is no way in hell of ever knowing.

 

[Artifact]

Same goes for the some of the NRA Certified Geniuses that teach classes here in mASS and spew garbage to their students. Theyyyy areeee everywhereeee

Does the average cop know the basic firearm laws? Do you know what an FA 10 is? Do you know the rules regarding he transfer and ownership of firearms?

I had an unbelievable conversation with a PO today that raised some serious questions.

 

[MisterHappy]

Part of the problem with the "Certified Geniuses" you reference is that the State requires that students be "informed" about the Mass Gun Laws - but do not define what constitutes "Informed."


Are you volunteering to go the required Gun Law segments of the Basic Pistol courses in you area?



I agree.....there is much that's not right. I heard a very experienced Instructor say that you could not hunt with a handgun in Mass., when you can. I know that from doing the Hunter Ed courses, which he does not; it was a subtle thing, but it was still in error.

 

[How]

if 99 out of a 100 planes arrived safe you could bet the airports would shut down, if 99 of 100 bank transactions were correct people would be lining up with pitchforks and torches.

Our Constitution states through the 2nd Amendment we have a right to bear arms. There are many power hungry people who disagree. It shouldn't be shocking that they might go after your guns. And the 1 out of 100 chance of this happening is why you should have your lawyer on speed dial. The police aren't lawyers, but they do know basic laws. Policing has become much more professional in the last 30 years. Most are required to have degrees today. Remember this, the guys in blue are generally paid to enforce basic laws. These are things like property crimes, crimes like assault and battery and usually things that put you in prison for 2 years or less. This isn't to say the average cop in blue doesn't make an arrest for murder. The guys in blue have supervisors (Sgt. & Lt's) who are better trained in the law and procedure who can answer questions. The police in suits usually work to gather evidence for the District Attorney for indictments or probable cause hearings. They usually also have an Assistant District Attorney standing by for help if necessary. So, when you ask one of your police buddies about MA Compliant weapons and they don't know the answer, here's how it will go down.

Officer pulls you over for cause -> You're polite and answer questions, have committed not major crimes, you get warning and go home.

Officer pulls you over for cause -> You're a jerk, you have something questionable, you continue to spout off. -> Officer calls supervisor. You continue to be a jerk. Supervisor decides to take said item for further review. -> Detectives called for further investigation. -> You may or may not go home now depending on what you were doing and how big a jerk you were. -> Detectives call ADA and AG's office to investigate you're issue. They think they have probable cause, they get show cause hearing or grand jury who decides. Once probable cause is established, you are formally charged for offense. And the rest is you getting a lawyer and spending thousands because you thought the officer on the street was a jerk, you had to tell him so and just couldn't be nice.

 

[MisterHappy]

Being a "jerk" is not [currently] illegal.

Asserting one's rights does not make one a "jerk," but some LEOs think it does.


Is the assertion of your post that one should say, "Yes, Master," when addressed by a cop, and that will keep you out of jail?

 

[Deleted member 12999]

I try to stay up on the law as much as possible, and NES has certainly been a big part of it. Most street cops that I know, just know possession laws, and transportation laws. Any time you see some of the more esoteric charges, like someone getting gigged for a pmag (gay), its probably tacked on by a chief or detective after the initial arrest for something else.

 

[How]

Being a "jerk" is not [currently] illegal.

Asserting one's rights does not make one a "jerk," but some LEOs think it does.

Is the assertion of your post that one should say, "Yes, Master," when addressed by a cop, and that will keep you out of jail?

I'm going to say being civil and polite makes a huge difference. A friend of mine won't give speeding tickets to people if when he asks "Do you know how fast you were going?" and they answer yes and truthfully. No ticket. Slow down and have a nice day. How many people do you think don't get tickets in a day? So many try to lie and argue. It's not about saying "yes master", it's about realizing who's in charge when your pulled over on the side of the road. You may not like it and you don't have to take it. If you want to argue the law, get a lawyer and see him and his department in court. Believe me, many civil attorneys will work for free based on your settlement if they remotely think you have a case. Laws aren't made on the side of the road, but deciding if they are to be enforced is.

I've included a hand video for reference. Watch learn and enjoy.

http://youtu.be/haiHGlo7O4o

 

[MisterHappy]

I'm always civil to the cops, as I'm civil to other human beings.

Because they're human beings, not because they're cops.

Also, I'm an experienced, careful driver, and seldom speak to John Law through my driver's window.

My issue was that your post was predicated on the premise that "Being a jerk" was sufficient for a cop to make your life hell - You may or may not go home now depending on what you were doing and how big a jerk you were. That's what you posted.

That is abuse of authority.

Period.


Cops are not due extra deference from non-cops. Civility should work both ways.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Part of the problem with the "Certified Geniuses" you reference is that the State requires that students be "informed" about the Mass Gun Laws - but do not define what constitutes "Informed."


Are you volunteering to go the required Gun Law segments of the Basic Pistol courses in you area?



I agree.....there is much that's not right. I heard a very experienced Instructor say that you could not hunt with a handgun in Mass., when you can. I know that from doing the Hunter Ed courses, which he does not; it was a subtle thing, but it was still in error.

A few years ago an NRA Instructor who's been doing this for probably 40 years (he's also a MSP Certified BFS Instructor) told a class of newbie women that "you don't have to do FA-10 forms for transfers between close family relatives"! Sadly this sort of mis-information is everywhere and a large percentage of Instructors either don't know or make it up when they teach.

I'm going to say being civil and polite makes a huge difference. A friend of mine won't give speeding tickets to people if when he asks "Do you know how fast you were going?" and they answer yes and truthfully. No ticket. Slow down and have a nice day. How many people do you think don't get tickets in a day? So many try to lie and argue. It's not about saying "yes master", it's about realizing who's in charge when your pulled over on the side of the road. You may not like it and you don't have to take it. If you want to argue the law, get a lawyer and see him and his department in court. Believe me, many civil attorneys will work for free based on your settlement if they remotely think you have a case. Laws aren't made on the side of the road, but deciding if they are to be enforced is.

I've included a hand video for reference. Watch learn and enjoy.

Chris Rock - How not to get your ass kicked by the police! - YouTube

Didn't watch the video but fully agree with How's statement. Attitude is damn near everything on the side of the road. And being polite goes a very long way to determining how the stop goes.

 

[How]

I agree with your feeling. No one likes to feel the victim. Unfortunately, we have the way we want the world to work, and the way it really works.

There will always be people who will try to deprive you of your right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. This includes police, criminals and everyone in between. Our remedies are simple, when the immediate threat of life is at risk, we have the God given right of self defense, backed by the 2nd Amendment and case precedent set by our Supreme Court. In all other cases, you may file civil or criminal charges against the people in question, including police officers. Let the courts decide who's right and who's wrong. This is what civilized people do in a civilized society. There is no such thing as a frivolous lawsuit - unless we're willing to accept street justice and we should not. Settling differences any other way could result in all of our rights being taken away as the powerful will always control the powerless.

 

[Chet0729]

They are cops not lawyers. Even the average lawyer does not know all the laws. There are just to many. Lawyers can specialize in one field, cops cant for the most part.

 

[travis]

Does the average cop know the basic firearm laws? Do you know what an FA 10 is? Do you know the rules regarding he transfer and ownership of firearms?

I had an unbelievable conversation with a PO today that raised some serious questions.

As a stamp collector I have to say that I have had a few run in's with Le's who claim ( as many do ) to know everything. I am what many call a hard ass and I do not bow to the badge. I have had a state trooper give me crap at one of the local ranges years ago as I had mg with a suppressor on it he was not even on duty and came over to my table and asked where I got that I told him I bought it ( my canned response ) he informed me that mg's and silencers where illegal to with ( again my canned reply ) sure they are. He got a little miffed but as I had loaded guns on my table and one in my hand he decide he would be manly and tell me to remain there while he made a call. I replied make it quick as I am fixing to pack up and go. He got to his car and got right on the phone watching me like a hawk. I made sure to turn in his direction when I put my H&K back into my holster and pulled my shirt over it.

I piled stuff in my truck that was directly behind me with the trooper watching the whole time. Two local sheriffs cars pulled up the trooper got out and had a shit eating grin on his face ready to to ream me a new one. Well to his dismay I greeted both the locals by name and proceed to tell them that this flatlander trooper was harassing me for shooting my guns. The locals told the trooper he is fine and got in their cars and drove away with me not to far behind.