SFP or FFP LPVOs on Police Rifles?

[Deleted member 67409]

Question: out of the departments that issue LPVOs for police rifles, are FFP or SFP more prevalent? What's the rationale?

 

[Deleted member 12999]

Question: out of the departments that issue LPVOs for police rifles, are FFP or SFP more prevalent? What's the rationale?

99.9% of PDs wouldn’t know the difference tbh

 

[Deleted member 67409]

99.9% of PDs wouldn’t know the difference tbh

True lol, but let's say hypothetically that they do and want to use the right optic for their purposes.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

True lol, but let's say hypothetically that they do and want to use the right optic for their purposes.

You would have to find departments that even used variable optics first, which is pretty rare. As an organization, they are dumb and cheap. You are way more likely to see them on specialty units and departments that let guys buy their own stuff. Even then, I couldn’t tell you my gut feeling, because I can count on 1 hand the number of times I saw it… and both times were the 2 times I took the Designated Patrol Marksman course.

 

[SgtHal75]

You would have to find departments that even used variable optics first, which is pretty rare. As an organization, they are dumb and cheap. You are way more likely to see them on specialty units and departments that let guys buy their own stuff. Even then, I couldn’t tell you my gut feeling, because I can count on 1 hand the number of times I saw it… and both times were the 2 times I took the Designated Patrol Marksman course.

I shoot regularly with a buddy of mine who is a cop and fellow Marine Veteran. When he went out for his departments swat or entry team (I forget what he called it) the instructor told him to not even worry about zeroing your rifle. Just point it and shoot. He said thank you very much and walked out. The instructor said there was no need to do anything like that because of the close engagements they will face. My buddy said “I get that in theory but I would never take a rifle into any situation without my dope on it”. Other than the NEMLEC guys I bet most cops wouldn’t know a LVPO from a tuna can. No offense to them but I don’t see patrolman putting out thier own cash for an optic like that unless they are gun nuts like us.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

I shoot regularly with a buddy of mine who is a cop and fellow Marine Veteran. When he went out for his departments swat or entry team (I forget what he called it) the instructor told him to not even worry about zeroing your rifle. Just point it and shoot. He said thank you very much and walked out. The instructor said there was no need to do anything like that because of the close engagements they will face. My buddy said “I get that in theory but I would never take a rifle into any situation without my dope on it”. Other than the NEMLEC guys I bet most cops wouldn’t know a LVPO from a tuna can. No offense to them but I don’t see patrolman putting out thier own cash for an optic like that unless they are gun nuts like us.

That’s absolutely insane.

Clown: Every bullet is attached to a lawyer.

also Clown: don’t worry about where they go

 

[nstassel]

 

[SgtHal75]

View attachment 531527

That’s a serious precision stock weld that guy has on his shotgun

 

[Deleted member 12999]

That’s a serious precision stock weld that guy has on his shotgun

Best part is he was probably dialed in on something 50 yards away with buckshot.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

The closest I have seen on SWAT Rifles around here is some guys running 3x magnifiers behind their issued red dots.

My opinion?
For cops, it’s seems FFP would be more useful.
When you dial it down to 1x, you can shoot short range (0-25 yards) with both eyes open and the tiny reticle illuminated like it’s a red dot. For longer distance (Over 100 yards) or something that needs precision, dial it up and actually use the reticle for hold overs and estimating distances. Though most cops would not understand or appreciate this flexibility. Battery life and durability would need to be on par with at least an eotech.

The full size reticle of a SFP at low power could be a distraction at most Police shooting distances, which are well inside 50 yards.


If it’s any help, my issued precision rifles scope is FFP, and I have practiced with using it like a red dot at the lowest magnification. Even at 8x, with both eyes open and the reticle illuminated, close in hits are doable.

 

[SgtHal75]

The closest I have seen on SWAT Rifles around here is some guys running 3x magnifiers behind their issued red dots.

My opinion?
For cops, it’s seems FFP would be more useful.
When you dial it down to 1x, you can shoot short range (0-25 yards) with both eyes open and the tiny reticle illuminated like it’s a red dot. For longer distance (Over 100 yards) or something that needs precision, dial it up and actually use the reticle for hold overs and estimating distances. Though most cops would not understand or appreciate this flexibility. Battery life and durability would need to be on par with at least an eotech.

The full size reticle of a SFP at low power could be a distraction at most Police shooting distances, which are well inside 50 yards.


If it’s any help, my issued precision rifles scope is FFP, and I have practiced with using it like a red dot at the lowest magnification. Even at 8x, with both eyes open and the reticle illuminated, close in hits are doable.

I dabbled with a magnifier on one of my rifles and didn’t like it, just not my cup of tea. I do
how ever have 2 LVPO’s. One on a 556 upper and one on a 300 blk out upper. Once you really train with these optics and put a good round count in your skill set goes to the next level.

 

[PappyM3]

The closest I have seen on SWAT Rifles around here is some guys running 3x magnifiers behind their issued red dots.

My opinion?
For cops, it’s seems FFP would be more useful.
When you dial it down to 1x, you can shoot short range (0-25 yards) with both eyes open and the tiny reticle illuminated like it’s a red dot. For longer distance (Over 100 yards) or something that needs precision, dial it up and actually use the reticle for hold overs and estimating distances. Though most cops would not understand or appreciate this flexibility. Battery life and durability would need to be on par with at least an eotech.

The full size reticle of a SFP at low power could be a distraction at most Police shooting distances, which are well inside 50 yards.

I’m not a cop, but have done raids, cordon and searches, and other things relevant to the LE LPVO requirements.

And I gotta disagree. SFP LPVOs provide much faster sight picture on target at 1x than mostFFP, if the dot is out. Some FFP do a good job at fast 1x with or without a dot, like the NX8. With thick outer lines to draw your eye in. But most suck without a strong dot, and LPVO battery life isn’t good enough to trust fully. I’m not saying to get a complex SFP reticle, because LE generally wouldn’t have use for BDC out to mid ranges or wind holds. There are plenty of simple reticle SFP LPVOs with German #4, mil dot, duplex, or even the accupoint triangle. And they’re all easier to aim in low light without their internal illumination, compared to other he vast majority of FFP scopes. Though, to be fair it seems many FFP reticles coming out have the good thick Ts for 1x that are gone from view at max magnification.

I’d forget about LPVOs (except for specific personnel) and lean towards an Aimpoint T2 or Sig 4T if I were an LEO or LEA purchaser and had the option. Potentially throw on a magnifier. I say this as being a big LPVO fan. But the LE use cases just don’t seem ideal for LPVOs. Do y’all trust all the officers to turn off the power knob or replace batteries on the LPVO. Because if not, a red dot makes a whole lot more sense. Without batteries, most LPVOs are garbage in low light. And I would think that is a significant factor for LE.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

The only argument that I make for variable optics is that identification and threat assessment is a huge part of a rational police officers decision making, so I wouldn’t trust them at 100 yards with a red dot to make a decision

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I’m not a cop, but have done raids, cordon and searches, and other things relevant to the LE LPVO requirements.

And I gotta disagree. SFP LPVOs provide much faster sight picture on target at 1x than mostFFP, if the dot is out. Some FFP do a good job at fast 1x with or without a dot, like the NX8. With thick outer lines to draw your eye in. But most suck without a strong dot, and LPVO battery life isn’t good enough to trust fully. I’m not saying to get a complex SFP reticle, because LE generally wouldn’t have use for BDC out to mid ranges or wind holds. There are plenty of simple reticle SFP LPVOs with German #4, mil dot, duplex, or even the accupoint triangle. And they’re all easier to aim in low light without their internal illumination, compared to other he vast majority of FFP scopes. Though, to be fair it seems many FFP reticles coming out have the good thick Ts for 1x that are gone from view at max magnification.

I’d forget about LPVOs (except for specific personnel) and lean towards an Aimpoint T2 or Sig 4T if I were an LEO or LEA purchaser and had the option. Potentially throw on a magnifier. I say this as being a big LPVO fan. But the LE use cases just don’t seem ideal for LPVOs. Do y’all trust all the officers to turn off the power knob or replace batteries on the LPVO. Because if not, a red dot makes a whole lot more sense. Without batteries, most LPVOs are garbage in low light. And I would think that is a significant factor for LE.

My experience with SFP vs FFP LPVOs is rather limited, so your points are probably more valid than mine Pappy. I 100% agree that red dots are far more useful for cops than Any type of LPVO. There are very few situations where LPVOs would be more useful and the training time to properly use one under stress would be impossible to implement.

The only argument that I make for variable optics is that identification and threat assessment is a huge part of a rational police officers decision making, so I wouldn’t trust them at 100 yards with a red dot to make a decision

This is true, but I would argue that situations like that are extremely rare. The average shot for a police sniper is something like 70 yards. For patrol or SWAT guys, the majority of gunfights (70-80%) happen at something like 15 yards or closer.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

My experience with SFP vs FFP LPVOs is rather limited, so your points are probably more valid than mine Pappy. I 100% agree that red dots are far more useful for cops than Any type of LPVO. There are very few situations where LPVOs would be more useful and the training time to properly use one under stress would be impossible to implement.

This is true, but I would argue that situations like that are extremely rare.

except… imo… it is exactly what makes it work the way it should. You get stand-off distance with the ability to identify threats.

 

[PappyM3]

My experience with SFP vs FFP LPVOs is rather limited, so your points are probably more valid than mine Pappy. I 100% agree that red dots are far more useful for cops than Any type of LPVO. There are very few situations where LPVOs would be more useful and the training time to properly use one under stress would be impossible to implement.

This is true, but I would argue that situations like that are extremely rare.

I’ll mention that it seems like more and more FFP reticles are being optimized at 1x (regardless of illumination) and the scales may be tipping in favor of your FFP vs SFP argument.

 

[Kisspik002]

I know of one department that issues LVPO on their patrol rifles. I believe they are SFP. I don’t know why. I can only assume the 1-6 scopes were affordable and somewhat rugged and that’s why they got them. It is a very populated urban area so their mindset is probably the ability for more accurate engagements at distance if needed


Personally if it was me, I’d want FFP in a 1-8 or 1-10.

 

[Whiskeywon]

View attachment 531527

I can't tell from the tiny photo, but that eotech sure looks backwards.

I know of one department that issues LVPO on their patrol rifles. I believe they are SFP. I don’t know why. I can only assume the 1-6 scopes were affordable and somewhat rugged and that’s why they got them. It is a very populated urban area so their mindset is probably the ability for more accurate engagements at distance if needed


Personally if it was me, I’d want FFP in a 1-8 or 1-10.

At one point the SFP Vortex Razor Gen II kind of ruled supreme despite being SFP or something like the Kahles 1-6 that is SFP. I don't really see the need of FFP sub 6x but as you get larger and larger sure I'll bite.
Not to mention as said above the SFP of years prior are typically better equipped to operate at 1x. Especially something like the Razor.
Since then we have the NX8, Atacr and Razor Gen III and many more that are ever pushing the FFP and max magnification while optimizing the red dot'esque function.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

I can't tell from the tiny photo, but that eotech sure looks backwards.


At one point the SFP Vortex Razor Gen II kind of ruled supreme despite being SFP or something like the Kahles 1-6 that is SFP. I don't really see the need of FFP sub 6x but as you get larger and larger sure I'll bite.
Not to mention as said above the SFP of years prior are typically better equipped to operate at 1x. Especially something like the Razor.
Since then we have the NX8, Atacr and Razor Gen III and many more that are ever pushing the FFP and max magnification while optimizing the red dot'esque function.

The point of the Kahles K16i 1-6 SFP scope, which I own, is to dominate in IPSC multigun. As is the newer Kahles K18i 1-8 SFP. These aren't combat or police scopes, but competition scopes. Sure, they'll work for defensive and the like purposes, but the intended market is IPSC multigun.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I can't tell from the tiny photo, but that eotech sure looks backwards.

I have seen a bigger version of that photo, and its definitely mounted backwards.
Most cops, even SWAT cops, are not gun guys.
Some of them are also not very bright.