People on terrorist watch list allowed to buy guns

[Admin]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/22/terror.guns/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- When people on the government's terrorist watch list have tried to buy guns or explosives in recent years, the government has let them the vast majority of the time.

Current law doesn't stop firearm or explosives sales to people whose names are on the terrorist watch list.

That's the finding of a new report by the Government Accountability Office, sent to lawmakers last month and released publicly Monday.

From February 2004 to February 2009, 963 background checks using the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System "resulted in valid matches with terrorist watch list records; of these matches, approximately 90 percent were allowed to proceed because the checks revealed no prohibiting information," the GAO report says. About 10 percent were denied.

"Under current law, there is no basis to automatically prohibit a person from possessing firearms or explosives because they appear on the terrorist watch list," wrote the GAO's director of homeland security and justice issues, Eileen R. Larence.

"Rather, there must be a disqualifying factor (i.e., prohibiting information) pursuant to federal or state law, such as a felony conviction or illegal immigration status."

Of the 963 background checks, 865 were allowed to proceed, and 98 were denied, the report said.

The GAO provided the report in response to a request from Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-New Jersey. The GAO said Lautenberg had requested an update to a 2005 report.

In a statement Monday, Lautenberg said, "this new report is proof positive that known and suspected terrorists are exploiting a major loophole in our law, threatening our families and our communities. This 'terror gap' has been open too long, and our national security demands that we shut it down."

The statement said Lautenberg is introducing legislation that would give the U.S. attorney general "authority to stop the sale of guns or explosives to terrorists."

However, an official with the National Rifle Association, the leading lobbyist group that espouses gun ownership rights, said problems with the terror watch list made a broad prohibition likely to violate the rights of law-abiding citizens.

"The integrity of the terror watch list is poor, as it mistakenly contains the names of many men and women, including some high-profile Americans, who have not violated the law," said a statement by Chris W. Cox, the NRA chief lobbyist. "In fact, a March 2009 report by the inspector general of the Department of Justice concluded that many people whose names were mistakenly placed on the list remain there even after their cases have been vetted and closed."

The GAO notes that being on a terrorist watch list does not mean that someone is involved in any terrorist activity.

Last month, the Justice Department reported that the FBI had kept thousands of names on its watch list based on outdated information and should have removed them.

 

[Bob P]

Lautenberg is such a POS.

 

[wolf223]

wow.

 

[Youradolt]

 

[z0mbi]

The Second and Fifth Amendments are a major loophole?

 

[ScottS]

Wow. You mean to tell me people not charged with nor convicted of any crime are not being deprived of their civil liberties? Shocking!

Last month, the Justice Department reported that the FBI had kept thousands of names on its watch list based on outdated information and should have removed them.

This says it all.

 

[Ray-500]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/22/terror.guns/index.html

And what does that tell you of the current state of affairs? America is being decimated, slice by slice. Will the "body" react before its dismembered?

 

[SemiAutoSam]

Was going to post this as a new thread but found it here already talked about.

BTW anyone have a link to the text of the bill ?

LAUTENBERG TO INTRODUCE BILL TO CRIMINALIZE 70% OF AMERICA MONDAY
Keep the sound down for the first few seconds unless you like loud metal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl9ES2p-ySA

Link to DHS website.
http://www.dhs.gov

You guys on the east coast might want to start organising, Maybe via PM's or another kind of network.

Everyone have their oval tine decoder handy ?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The list is federal. Even without incorporation, it would appear to be unconstitutional to deprive persons of a right recognized by SCOTUS without conviction or pending charges.

 

[Ray-500]

Captain Midnight is not dead....has only been laying low.

 

[TomH]

A watch list is just that, a watch list. No evidence + no charges = no crime. I don't believe that being a felon should restrict your rights either. If you're out walking among the free, you are entitled to your rights.

Even the fact that they have these "watch lists" is wrong. We've lost too much liberty in the name of "homeland security".

 

[Hiltonizer]

Someone at work who knows I'm a gun owner sent me this article today.. then came up to talk about it later... he was completely aghast that this is possible...

You know the argument I had to make... and I'm getting a little irritated that I have to make it and so many others so often. We really are under attack.

 

[Ray-500]

Someone at work who knows I'm a gun owner sent me this article today.. then came up to talk about it later... he was completely aghast that this is possible...

You know the argument I had to make... and I'm getting a little irritated that I have to make it and so many others so often. We really are under attack.

Buck up. I'm 67 and have been going through this all my adult life. In social situations and even on the job, was surrounded by "bleeding hearts". Never backed off, tried to be friendly to all, and found that when "push comes to shove" there were no answers from the other side in dealing with facts.

 

[Ray-500]

A watch list is just that, a watch list. No evidence + no charges = no crime. I don't believe that being a felon should restrict your rights either. If you're out walking among the free, you are entitled to your rights.

Even the fact that they have these "watch lists" is wrong. We've lost too much liberty in the name of "homeland security".

Something does not equate. You don't believe that being a convicted felon sets you apart? Entitled to rights...absolutely. Suspect in crimes of similar nature...absolutely. That's the path you made....your choice. Don't push off your choice onto society. You made your choice....live with it. Why in the hell is any "ordinary" person supposed to feel sorry for you? Convicted felon? TS. Your choice, your life. Don't look for sympathy.

 

[exo]

Something does not equate. You don't believe that being a convicted felon sets you apart? Entitled to rights...absolutely. Suspect in crimes of similar nature...absolutely. That's the path you made....your choice. Don't push off your choice onto society. You made your choice....live with it. Why in the hell is any "ordinary" person supposed to feel sorry for you? Convicted felon? TS. Your choice, your life. Don't look for sympathy.

While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with that point, it's worth noting that they continue to invent new felony offenses all the time. Also, not all felonies are the same. Commercial software piracy is a felony offense, but I haven't heard of any violent offenders there

 

[CRSIII]

Aren't we on that list?

 

[Ray-500]

While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with that point, it's worth noting that they continue to invent new felony offenses all the time. Also, not all felonies are the same. Commercial software piracy is a felony offense, but I haven't heard of any violent offenders there

I see an attempt to play with words. Who is the "they" that continues to invent? Not all the same? Is a "felony" a "felony", or is it not? Neither myself nor any "average Joe" made a classification as to what is a felony or what is not. Either you are, or you are not. Don't care what the category. You did "whatever". You got caught. Man up.

 

[Lamina]

I see an attempt to play with words. Who is the "they" that continues to invent? Not all the same? Is a "felony" a "felony", or is it not? Neither myself nor any "average Joe" made a classification as to what is a felony or what is not. Either you are, or you are not. Don't care what the category. You did "whatever". You got caught. Man up.

do you know what makes something a felony?

the Federal government defines a felony as a crime which involves a potential punishment of one year or longer in prison.[1]

do you know who defines how long in prison something is worthy of?

so it's cool with you that someone else can arbitrarily place a title on someone and deprive them of their liberty?

not arbitrary, you think? what exactly makes you more of a menace to society when you play by their rules and cut the barrel on your spiffy AR down to 15.5'' versus 16''?

if you really believe the govt. should be able to define any metrics that allow them to selectively limit a persons liberties, all while calling them free men, then sell your guns. you aren't worthy of them.

many of us play the game because we are realists who understand that while the game shouldn't exist, it does. I fear you don't even realize you are playing a game when you try and force others to obey the rules.

 

[Lamina]

Just to expand on this concept...

"we the govt feel that it is unreasonable for any normal man to need to possess more than 1,000 rounds of any particular type of ammunition. To possess more than 1,000 rounds of any particular type, one must apply for a special license..."

"any man found in violation of this law shall face up to 5 years in prison..."

now, riddle me this... what is the difference in design between this law and the law that defines how long the barrel on your AR must be?

don't like the new law? don't want to play by their rules? POOF! you're a felon! all because too many other people will continue to play by their rules because those people think they have authority. and unfortunately for those people paying attention, the zombies thinking that they have authority, though fallacious, is ironically enough to give them authority.

 

[Ray-500]

do you know what makes something a felony?


do you know who defines how long in prison something is worthy of?

so it's cool with you that someone else can arbitrarily place a title on someone and deprive them of their liberty?

not arbitrary, you think? what exactly makes you more of a menace to society when you play by their rules and cut the barrel on your spiffy AR down to 15.5'' versus 16''?

if you really believe the govt. should be able to define any metrics that allow them to selectively limit a persons liberties, all while calling them free men, then sell your guns. you aren't worthy of them.

many of us play the game because we are realists who understand that while the game shouldn't exist, it does. I fear you don't even realize you are playing a game when you try and force others to obey the rules.

Playing a game? Not on your life. Spiffy AR?. Don't have one, never liked them, and still do not. Personal preference. Me force others? Not by a long shot. Leave me alone, I will leave you alone. Threaten me or my family? You or I or both would end up dead. Simple as that. And that IS the bottom line.

 

[GSG]

if you really believe the govt. should be able to define any metrics that allow them to selectively limit a persons liberties, all while calling them free men, then sell your guns. you aren't worthy of them.

+1

If the crime you committed was so bad that you shouldn't be allowed near guns, then you shouldn't ever leave the inside of a prison. It's as simple as that.

 

[Lamina]

Playing a game? Not on your life. Spiffy AR?. Don't have one, never liked them, and still do not. Personal preference. Me force others? Not by a long shot. Leave me alone, I will leave you alone. Threaten me or my family? You or I or both would end up dead. Simple as that. And that IS the bottom line.

clearly, sir, the point is lost on you.

do enjoy your grazing.

 

[Ray-500]

Just to expand on this concept...

"we the govt feel that it is unreasonable for any normal man to need to possess more than 1,000 rounds of any particular type of ammunition. To possess more than 1,000 rounds of any particular type, one must apply for a special license..."

"any man found in violation of this law shall face up to 5 years in prison..."

now, riddle me this... what is the difference in design between this law and the law that defines how long the barrel on your AR must be?

don't like the new law? don't want to play by their rules? POOF! you're a felon! all because too many other people will continue to play by their rules because those people think they have authority. and unfortunately for those people paying attention, the zombies thinking that they have authority, though fallacious, is ironically enough to give them authority.

By the "they", I assume you mean the "government".? It is no ones business how much ammo or how many firearms a person has...as long as all was obtained legally. Just as it no ones business how many pieces of toilet paper you use to wipe your ass. If using 4,5,6,7 or however many pieces makes someone a felon.....all I can say is.....come watch me wipe my ass and make your determination. Perhaps the "agent" could help so I can conserve? Yup that would be good....a "Toilet Paper Czar".

 

[Lamina]

By the "they", I assume you mean the "government".? It is no ones business how much ammo or how many firearms a person has...as long as all was obtained legally. Just as it no ones business how many pieces of toilet paper you use to wipe your ass. If using 4,5,6,7 or however many pieces makes someone a felon.....all I can say is.....come watch me wipe my ass and make your determination. Perhaps the "agent" could help so I can conserve? Yup that would be good....a "Toilet Paper Czar".

ah, but good sir, what is "legally"?

I prose that any free interaction or trading between free men is legal. that the only action that is (or should be) illegal is one which is rooted in, or has roots involving duress or theft.

legal has nothing to do with words on paper defining who can and who cannot.

you can buy a shotgun "illegally" when you are 6,573 days old. but at 6,574 you suddenly are no longer worthy of being put in jail for doing so?

 

[Ray-500]

clearly, sir, the point is lost on you.

do enjoy your grazing.

No problem, I'll just enjoy the tall grass and meander mindlessly, seeking the feeding ground. However, coyotes, wolves and other predators may want to think twice. A .45 could disrupt the day of a predator that perceives a grazer as easy prey.

 

[Lamina]

No problem, I'll just enjoy the tall grass and meander mindlessly, seeking the feeding ground. However, coyotes, wolves and other predators may want to think twice. A .45 could disrupt the day of a predator that perceives a grazer as easy prey.

even in a good flock, black sheep be found I suppose. I wish you no ill will, but do dig to the core of your beliefs and figure out if you believe

"leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone"

or

"leave me alone and don't do anything those guys say we can't, and do all the stuff that those guys say we have to, and I'll leave you alone but they might not."

one is freer than the other.

 

[Ray-500]

ah, but good sir, what is "legally"?

legal has nothing to do with words on paper defining who can and who cannot.

Again, depending on cirsumstances, I might agree as to "who can and who cannot". That has nothing to do with societal "legality".

 

[Lamina]

Again, depending on cirsumstances, I might agree as to "who can and who cannot". That has nothing to do with societal "legality".

it's highly possible I misjudged you then. but, the post that set off my tirades didn't read like the writings of someone who values liberty.

 

[Ray-500]

ah, but good sir, what is "legally"?


legal has nothing to do with words on paper defining who can and who cannot.

It has all to do with words on paper. Words have meanings....and impact. They have bearing. They have consequence. They end (in most instance) in real-life perception.

 

[Ray-500]

it's highly possible I misjudged you then. but, the post that set off my tirades didn't read like the writings of someone who values liberty.

Are you kidding me? Please define exactly what "liberty" means to you as a person.