Noveske: Space Invader 9mm, and the Noveske 9 rifles and pistols

[atmay]

9mm indoors without ear protection would definitely make your ears ring for the rest of the day, but I'm not sure it would permanently destroy your hearing unless we're talking multiple mags worth without hearing protection. It is roughly 163 decibels out of a G17. AR-15 with a 16" barrel is closer to 165 decibels. The 3 decibel increase is 100% more sound energy, which hits the ear at about a 23-25% increase in perceived loudness at direct wave reverberation from gun to ear. More importantly though, the doubling of sound energy means it also hits your ear far harder on reflected sound from hard surfaces (walls/ceiling/floor). So an AR-15 is significantly louder than any 9mm handgun and poses far more unprotected ear risk discharging indoors.

Either will absolutely destroy your hearing. 300BLK might destroy it worse, but 9mm certainly can/will cause instantaneous hearing loss.

Unless we’re planning on only firing one round (which is how likely, exactly?), this argument is essentially moot.

 

[bfm]

Is there a women and children argument for PCCs. As users of them, not targets.

Not counting lever actions, I have 2 PCCs. Beretta Storms that take 92 mags, so 15 rnd prebans are not hard to find. They were relatively cheap to buy, one used and one new. Sent the trigger groups and recoil assemblies to Sierra Papa for upgrade to metal parts. Both run great and are nice and compact. I have run Golddots through them and they functioned without a hitch, but these mostly get fed either WWB or Blazer Brass.

When I bought the used one it was partially as a joke as my GF at the time was a big BSG fan and it was a way to get her shooting. She would not touch any of my modern sporting rifles and she has some arthritis that made pistols uncomfortable.

I found I really liked it and bought the new one so we could both shoot. They have slings, red dots and Surefires on them and I would feel acceptably armed with them around the house in case of a break in. I do also have shotguns and rifle caliber carbines, but if for some reason the PCCs were what was handy I would not really feel under gunned at room distances. They are light and quick as well as accurate. I keep them around as my now wife still doesn't like rifle caliber stuff and still has issues with some pistols, though she does do well with a S&W Model 19 4" with .38 +P, but the Berettas hold more ammo and have lights.

 

[Reptile]

Noveske sells the lower by itself...

Noveske9 9mm Lower Receiver

So, you can build it up and make it a SBR after you get a tax stamp.

 

[drgrant]

That’s the part I don’t understand. 300BLK will outperform 9mm in every way possible.

PCCs just don’t make sense anymore, unless you’re skinflinting and buying a HiPoint.

-Indoor range use (a lot of indoor club ranges allow PCCs but wouldn't allow a .300 blk)
-USPSA has a PCC class (don't think it allows rifle calibers (yet?) )
-9mm is stupidly easy to reload compared to .300 blk, cost of ammo is a huge difference.

Then again, like you say... if you can afford one of these things, then ammo cost is almost irrelevant. And .300 blk at typical ranges is so much better juice wise.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Either will absolutely destroy your hearing. 300BLK might destroy it worse, but 9mm certainly can/will cause instantaneous hearing loss.

Unless we’re planning on only firing one round (which is how likely, exactly?), this argument is essentially moot.

This too...

I always found this amusing (people selecting guns based on noise) although after having rung my bell by accident a few times some stuff is "worse" than others, but to act like any of it is going to save your hearing (particularly inside a building) is laughable at best. It's all horrendously bad for hearing.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

In Mass with no suppressors, I would not want to fire off a 5.56 or 300BLK with some loud muzzle brake in my own home. I have to double up ear pro when I shoot my BCM with the brake on it, and that's outdoors. Whole family will have permanent hearing damage, and who knows how effective you'll be once the first round blows your hearing. That's the appeal of a 9mm carbine/SBR to me.

Not sure if serious, but as Atmay alludes to, anything worth protecting your family with is going to be loud enough to be hazardous to hearing.
Also go inside a range and pop off a hi point 9mm and tell me how quiet that is.

Wait, don't do it, for the sake of your ears.

How effective? In real life, people seem to shoot bad guys just fine, and then deal with (any) hearing loss later. It's a low order item in the whole scheme of things. If you're whipping out guns in the house to protect your family is a little bit of tinnitus really going to be a big deal in that moment? Probably not.

I've had my "bell rung a few times" by loud noises (with gunfire being the worst) it's not pleasant. It's not good for you. It sucks. But it sure as hell isn't guaranteed deafness or anything like that either. (damage is probably a guarantee, how much, god only knows. ) Also, who says you have to have some "loud muzzle brake"? You can configure a gun however you want it...

-Mike

 

[citoriguy]

Noveske sells the lower by itself...

Noveske9 9mm Lower Receiver

So, you can build it up and make it a SBR after you get a tax stamp.

Awesome. I wouldn’t mind building one to go along with my Colt AR-9. I already have 6 mags for that, so I’d be set there.

 

[fshalor]

If it's subsonic, does 300blk have an advantage over 9mm other than penetrating body armor? 9mm will leave a larger diameter hole at .355 and even larger if hollow point. Assuming adequate penetration on the part of the 9mm round, does subsonic 300 blk move fast enough to make up for the fact that it has a smaller cross section? Or is it just that you can get soft points that will expand to a larger cross section than the 9mm due to the additional mass of the bullet?

In this class of weapon, and in any situation I would expect to be in, my biggest concern is wall penetration.

What does 9mm in a PCC offer me for home defense inside. What does it offer outside?

I think a PCC is a perfect choice for backup or for passing to someone in an emergency to provide defensive fire on a point. And for MOA training on a budget. But .22 does that as well .

Oh and in a silencer allowed world this would all change.

 

[drgrant]

In this class of weapon, and in any situation I would expect to be in, my biggest concern is wall penetration.

There's fun there, too... Anything worth shooting at a bad guy will typically sail through at least 1-2 drywall panels + insulation walls in a blink. A lot of people refuse to believe it, but there is no free lunch on this. Basically anything that doesn't sail through a wall or two is probably not a good stopper. At least I haven't seen anything that wasn't some huge compromise.

This is where all that bullshit about people putting birdshot in HD guns come from, because it's one of the few things that won't reliably sail through a wall. It's also likely a very poor stopper unless you shoot someone in the face with it.

-Mike

 

[fshalor]

There's fun there, too... Anything worth shooting at a bad guy will typically sail through at least 1-2 drywall panels + insulation walls in a blink. A lot of people refuse to believe it, but there is no free lunch on this. Basically anything that doesn't sail through a wall or two is probably not a good stopper. At least I haven't seen anything that wasn't some huge compromise.

This is where all that bullshit about people putting birdshot in HD guns come from, because it's one of the few things that won't reliably sail through a wall. It's also likely a very poor stopper unless you shoot someone in the face with it.

-Mike

I've posted here before about it, but the turkey #4 12 ga loads are pretty epic. Also an ar15 with 40gr Vmax was epic against drywall.

Do I have it in my 870? No. I have 000buck.

 

[dingbat]

This is where all that bullshit about people putting birdshot in HD guns come from, because it's one of the few things that won't reliably sail through a wall. It's also likely a very poor stopper unless you shoot someone in the face with it.

-Mike

Don't you know anything? With no choke, birdshot out of a shotgun will fill a room with a hail of leaded death making it un-possible to miss your target.

 

[Varmint]

Not sure if serious, but as Atmay alludes to, anything worth protecting your family with is going to be loud enough to be hazardous to hearing.
Also go inside a range and pop off a hi point 9mm and tell me how quiet that is.

Wait, don't do it, for the sake of your ears.

How effective? In real life, people seem to shoot bad guys just fine, and then deal with (any) hearing loss later. It's a low order item in the whole scheme of things. If you're whipping out guns in the house to protect your family is a little bit of tinnitus really going to be a big deal in that moment? Probably not.

I've had my "bell rung a few times" by loud noises (with gunfire being the worst) it's not pleasant. It's not good for you. It sucks. But it sure as hell isn't guaranteed deafness or anything like that either. (damage is probably a guarantee, how much, god only knows. ) Also, who says you have to have some "loud muzzle brake"? You can configure a gun however you want it...

-Mike

A 9mm vs my AR might be the difference between temporary and permanent hearing loss, and the AR might be disorienting. I don't care that much about my over 50 hearing, but do care about my kids'. I've heard 9mm w/out ear pro, it's not disorienting, but I wouldn't want to hear my AR.

My muzzle brake is welded on, as is most people who are complying in mass. Not sure easy to play around with alternatives. Do you know any that are no louder than an A2? I'd like to know for future configs.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Either will absolutely destroy your hearing. 300BLK might destroy it worse, but 9mm certainly can/will cause instantaneous hearing loss.

Unless we’re planning on only firing one round (which is how likely, exactly?), this argument is essentially moot.

I've experienced 9mm indoors without hearing protection. Was at my range at 5am once. Had the place to myself. After a couple magazines, decided I'd switch out the plugs to cans, as the plugs just aren't great indoors. Little did I know someone came in and set up while I was firing. The second I took out the ear plugs, guy mag dumps. Yes, this one was my fault, and I'll definitely never assume that again. Ears rung for the rest of the day, but it went away the next. Yes, one could potentially permanently damage their hearing from 9mm, but 556, 300blk, and 308 are all exponentially more powerful SPL with an almost guarantee of damage indoors without protection, while 9mm is circumstantial.