Non-Resident and Visiting with SBS

[dbrowne1]

Hello,

I am a former MA resident but have lived in VA for many years now, so all of my MA permits are long expired. My understanding is that, as a non-resident, I can transport (cased and unloaded) Non-Large Capacity Rifles and Shotguns and possess them while visiting MA as long I am allowed to do so in my home state (and I am).

If I have a properly Form 4'ed factory Remington 870 SBS, 4 round magazine, is there any reason why I can't transport and possess this while visiting MA so long as I have the ATF travel form approved?

 

[dbrowne1]

I'm thinking this question may be answered by the definitions in MA firearms laws, which provide that a "shotgun" has a barrel of 18+ inches and an overall length of 26+ inches, while the definition of "firearm" would encompass a SBS - and so I would appear to need a Non-Resident LTC.

If I'm offbase here, any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Jose]

My understanding is that, as a non-resident, I can transport (cased and unloaded) Non-Large Capacity Rifles and Shotguns and possess them while visiting MA as long I am allowed to do so in my home state (and I am).

I am almost 100% positive that your understanding is incorrect.

Outside of some very narrow exceptions for hunts and organized shooting contests, you cannot do what you think you can unless you have the applicable MA FID or LTC.

 

[MACGYVR]

Your MA permits expired the moment you moved out of Mass. They never had a chance to expire due to time.

As a non-resident you can transport as you suggest BUT ONLY IF you are coming to an organized shooting event and have an invite from that event (brothers backyard does not count) or you can come hunting here with your guns as long as you have a non-resident hunting license in your possession, or the other exception is driving through the state to a state like NH where you can possess your guns without a permit. No stopping at a cousins house though on the trip. Must travel through the state.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Your MA permits expired the moment you moved out of Mass. They never had a chance to expire due to time.

I do not believe this is accurate.

A permit may be revoked for failure to notify of change of address, and will be cancelled if you send notification you have moved out of state.

BUT... if the permit is not yet revoked or cancelled, I don't believe the state can bring a successful charge of "unlicensed carry" by proving that you moved out of state and thus your permit was, without a cancellation action, voided.

I would welcome any correction that includes a statutory or case law cite.

 

[Kevlar]

dbrowne1, you are correct that non-residents can generally possess non-large capacity rifles and shotguns without a non-resident LTC (M.G.L. c.140 s.129C and c.269 s.10). However, as you stated, since the barrel is less than 18", it may fall under the definition of "firearm", which would require a resident or non-resident LTC to possess. IANAL, YMMV, etc.

ETA: here's a thread that addresses non-residents bringing firearms into MA...

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...ng-guns-into-Mass.-for-competition-or-hunting

 

[MACGYVR]

Here is something I just found in a FAQ from the town of Boxborough

76. I PREVIOUSLY COULD LAWFULLY OWN A SAWED-OFF SHOTGUN (PROVIDING IT WAS LEGALLY POSSESSED UNDER FEDERAL LAW) WITH A LTC. CAN I STILL POSSES A SAWED-OFF SHOTGUN?
No. The provision of c. 269§10(c) previously allowing the possession of a sawed-off shotgun has been deleted making such possession illegal under all circumstances.

So looks like possession is verboten even if you have a form 4.

 

[MACGYVR]

I do not believe this is accurate.

A permit may be revoked for failure to notify of change of address, and will be cancelled if you send notification you have moved out of state.

BUT... if the permit is not yet revoked or cancelled, I don't believe the state can bring a successful charge of "unlicensed carry" by proving that you moved out of state and thus your permit was, without a cancellation action, voided.

I would welcome any correction that includes a statutory or case law cite.

Its a huge grey area as far as I can tell.
The State would have the burden on proof to prove that you do not reside in Mass anymore. Which is even more cloudy as the secretary of state says on his welcome to massachusetts page that there is no formal method of declaring mass residency. http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...usetts&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari

Residency

There is no formal procedure for establishing a legal residence in Massachusetts. Voter registration, automobile registration, a driver’s license, the appearance of a person’s name on a city or town street list, and rent, utility, mortgage or telephone bills normally provide tangible proof of residence. However, individual public or private agencies or institutions may have their own requirements for proof of residence. A one-year residency requirement is imposed in order to qualify for state tuition rates at state colleges and universities, and a six-month residency is required for community colleges.

So I stand corrected, permit would have remained valid.

Nobody knows you move and when.

 

[Kevlar]

Here is something I just found in a FAQ from the town of Boxborough

So looks like possession is verboten even if you have a form 4.

Well, they're technically correct. It is illegal to possess a "Sawed-Off Shotgun"...

M.G.L. c.269 s.10(c)

...whoever owns, possesses or carries on his person, or carries on his person or under his control in a vehicle, a sawed-off shotgun, as defined in said section one hundred and twenty-one of said chapter one hundred and forty, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for life, or for any term of years...

...and a "Sawed-Off Shotgun" is defined as...

M.G.L. c.140 s.121

“Sawed-off shotgun”, any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

...but factory SBS's are legal to possess.

 

[Acme.Armament]

I believe that when you transport any Form 4 firearm across state lines, you must submit a Form 5320.20 in advance to the BATFE. You must wait for the reply granting permission before transporting the firearm. This is independent of whether possession itself is legal in the destination, which has been addressed by other posters.

Plan ahead, these things take time:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/94656-Plan-ahead-Form-5320.20-took-6-weeks

 

[MACGYVR]

...but factory SBS's are legal to possess.

And the officer that pulls you over for speeding on i90 is going know what is factory and what was modified?
He is going to react appropriately and arrest you for possession of a sawed off shotgun no matter what. Your lawyer will then have to prove that the shotgun was manufactured in that configuration and ask for dismissal of charges. Still going to spend a few nights in jail at a minimum.

to the OP. NOT RECOMMENDING IT. NOT WORTH THE POTENTIAL OF DESTROYING YOUR LIFE. The SBS is probably very cool and you probably want to show it to your friends back here. It's alot cheaper for a few tickets on JetBlue to fly them down there than the court fees and lawyer costs to get you out of prison.

 

[dbrowne1]

1. My old LTC and FID aren't an issue here - they're long expired on their face regardless of whether they turned into pumpkins the moment I moved.

2. Chapter 140, Section 129C provides, in pertinent part as an exception to the licensing requirements:

(p) Carrying or possession by residents or nonresidents of so-called black powder rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor as described in such paragraphs (A) and (B) of the third paragraph of section 121, and the carrying or possession of conventional rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor by nonresidents who meet the requirements for such carrying or possession in the state in which they reside.

I interpret that to mean I can possess and carry rifles and shotguns (but probably not large capacity ones) as a non-resident.

3. My SBS is not a "sawed off" shotgun under MA law because it wasn't modified into a SBS - it has always been one, having been manufactured by Remington as a SBS.

4. In any case, I think it's a moot point, as the definitions in MGL Chapter 140 Section 121 make clear that a "shotgun" must have a barrel of 18+ inches and an OAL of 26+ inches - and the definition of a "firearm," which most think means "handgun," includes/encompasses short-barreled shotguns and rifles.

 

[dbrowne1]

to the OP. NOT RECOMMENDING IT. NOT WORTH THE POTENTIAL OF DESTROYING YOUR LIFE. The SBS is probably very cool and you probably want to show it to your friends back here. It's alot cheaper for a few tickets on JetBlue to fly them down there than the court fees and lawyer costs to get you out of prison.

Actually, I just want a home defense gun while I'm there and it's the only thing I own right now that is both suitable for that role and that I thought might be legal for me to bring. Everything else I own that's suitable for that role is either a handgun or an evil large capacity assault rifle.

 

[drgrant]

Ignoring all that "speeding and the cop finding your gun" BS, the real problem is you don't have an LTC. Even if by some miracle you could get the 5320 approved (which I don't think BATFE will do for an SBS moving into MA) your possession would not be covered by any of the standard exemptions in the law.

-Mike

 

[securityboy]

And the officer that pulls you over for speeding on i90 is going know what is factory and what was modified?
He is going to react appropriately and arrest you for possession of a sawed off shotgun no matter what. Your lawyer will then have to prove that the shotgun was manufactured in that configuration and ask for dismissal of charges. Still going to spend a few nights in jail at a minimum...

I COMPLETELY disagree with that, if you think your average LEO is going to look at someone's MA non-res LTC and BATF approved FORM4, and 5320.20 and subsquently hassle him over, (or as you claim arrest) over the whole "what is a factory SBS" BS your tin foil hat is way too tight.

Asside for the non-res aspect (which would require a MA non-res LTC, to be OK) you don't hear of MA resident's with Factory SBS's being arrested at every traffic stop "for possession of a sawed off shotgun no matter what. [STRIKE]Your[/STRIKE] Thier lawyer will then have to prove that the shotgun was manufactured in that configuration and ask for dismissal of charges. Still going to spend a few nights in jail at a minimum..."

 

[dbrowne1]

Ignoring all that "speeding and the cop finding your gun" BS, the real problem is you don't have an LTC. Even if by some miracle you could get the 5320 approved (which I don't think BATFE will do for an SBS moving into MA) your possession would not be covered by any of the standard exemptions in the law.

-Mike

That's pretty much what I have concluded as well.

SBS = "firearm" and not "shotgun" = LTC required, under MA law.

 

[Jose]

For a little over $100 you can buy an 18" cylinder bore barrel for an 870 (if that is what you have), slide it on, leave the short barrel home, and have an easy trip.