Newsweek: Weapons Porn

[lupis42]

I'm still not sold on them. I don't care how reliable the engine is. Single engine = dead aviators.

Meh... to my knowledge, the number one killer of pilots is pilot error, and engine problems isn't number two. It certainly increases the risk, but we can and do put a price on increased risk all the time, and the F35 delivers a great deal for the risk, as well as the money.

 

[ScottS]

Halting production of the F-22 is one of the decisions made by the current administration that I think actually make sense. Besides, no one (DOD, Pentago or the White House) wanted it.

Not after you put your own people in power. Prior to the big Black Wednesday, when the USAF leadership got canned, all USAF leadership was holding the line at 381 Raptors. That's 10 24UE squadrons (one per Expeditionary Air Force Wing) plus training and pipeline. Every study done said the necessary number was well north of 250. Fire Wynne (SECAF) and Moseley (CSAF). Enter Donley and Schwartz. Overnight the number required changes. Schwartz initially says somewhere around 250 (never explains were that number comes from), and then suddenly, overnight, both Donley and Schwartz decide 187 is the right number. Sound like a lot of analysis/thought went into that? At the current number, they cannot even equip each EAF with one 18UE squadron, and the USAF has lots of data to show that 18UE squadrons are wasteful to equip/man/operate. But they can't even field 10 18UE squadrons.[/quote]

Why do we need the F-22? It's a air-to-air combat aircraft. Who are we going to fight? No one has an airforce anymore. There are no more superpowers. Russia, China, Iran, North Korea - no one has an aircraft that can even begin to match the F-22. .

In case you haven't read the papers lately, USAF iron is getting pretty long in the tooth. It is literally falling out of the sky. China, Russia, the f***ing Frogs, and India, to name just a few, are pouring money into fighter development. Advanced fighters aren't something you just develop overnight. The days of 6 months from drawing board to flight ended with the P-51. It takes forever to get an airplane to the maturity the F-22 is today. I personally know guys who were working on the F-22 in the mid 80's, I was working F-22 issues for the .mil in the early 90's, and the airplane went IOC in Dec 2005. And it doesn't matter if the F-22 can clean house today, that airplane is designed to be around for 25+ years.

IIRC, the last tests gave it a 108 to zero kill ratio against the nearest foreign competitor.

And Tiger tanks were King Kong versus Shermans. How'd that turn out? Being King of the Hill is a bit hard if you don't have any airplanes.

So why spend BILLIONS of dollars on a weapons system developed to fight an enemy that doesn't exist? That's the definition of PORK right there (and the only people who put up a fight were congressment from the districts where the plane was being built). Money should (and was, IIRC) redirected to programs we may actually need - the joint strike fighter, tankers, drones, etc.

The F-35 is a low-performance POS, the tankers and UAV's (drones are targets) were already funded. It's was nowhere near a zero-sum movement of money.

 

[jcetto0351]

#9 SMAW NE rounds! These things are unbelievable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNdN5G-iXd8

 

[cekim]

#9 SMAW NE rounds! These things are unbelievable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNdN5G-iXd8

OMG - Zen Buddhism as a Weapon... BAN IT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s28jxGnKeE&feature=channel

 

[PaulD]

Meh... to my knowledge, the number one killer of pilots is pilot error, and engine problems isn't number two. It certainly increases the risk, but we can and do put a price on increased risk all the time, and the F35 delivers a great deal for the risk, as well as the money.

Has the F16 caused fatalities as a result of its single engine?

 

[Bill Nance]

Yes, we are so vastly superior that there is no chance of a mechanized attack on the US, ever. We can stop all advanced fighter jet, sub and battleship development...

Not only that, but with all the treaties and global circle jerking going on, there's no chance of another war, ever - just insurgencies...



Those who do no learn from history are doomed to repeat it... This particular history was the global pacifism that followed WWI ("The war to end all wars")

Oh well, I tried...

If you seriously think that there is even the slightest remote possibility of an invasion of the continental U.S. you are seriously misinformed. We have the nuclear umbrella, which, despite the current chatter from the Obamites, may be reduced (Do we really NEED 5k of them?) but certainly isn't going to get scrapped.

As to the possibility of going to war with anyone who is remotely close to being on a par with U.S. troop and weapons capability in the next decade, it's nil.

Right now, we wouldn't just stomp the Russians in a major conventional war (or the Chinese) we would annihilate them, utterly, completely. That balance of power won't begin to start shifting for another decade, by which time we will be able to make stuff that makes the Zumwalt or the F-22 (which is a pretty cool plane, I'll admit) look like crap.

Planes come off the assembly line pretty quick with enough funding. The Zumwalt is a ship even the U.S. Navy doesn't want but is getting anyway.

We're in 2 wars right now with no conventional enemies we need to worry about in terms of technology or training. We need to be focusing on the task at hand, not spending hundreds of billions on Buck Rogers weapons systems that by the time we might need them will be out of date anyway.

No one is going to invade China, the U.S., Russia or any other nuclear power, ever. Why the Hell do you think the Iranians want a nuke so bad?

 

[ScottS]

Planes come off the assembly line pretty quick with enough funding.

Could you back this assertion up with some kind of facts, please? The comment bespeaks almost no knowledge of modern aircraft development/acquisition.

 

[cekim]

No one is going to invade China, the U.S., Russia or any other nuclear power, ever. Why the Hell do you think the Iranians want a nuke so bad?

First, my point was that we stop developing capabilities and ramp down just as we did post WWI - it leave the possibility open for another power to rise up in the vacuum of brute force...

Sure we can built planes that we already have quick enough - but in the mean time other nations continue on developing capabilities and "catch up" to us as we stagnate...

Time and tech does not stand still - we are not talking about propeller driven aircraft that GM can crank out instead of Trucks inside 3 months...

Second, "no one would is going to... ever"...

The most foolish words in global strategic thinking ever uttered...

Also the most common (mistaken) words in global strategic thinking...

The thinking on what Russia would do after WWII WRT to Berlin? "They can't just build a wall? Really? They are !@#$ing building a giant wall?

Just because nukes are on the tables does not mean they are used. Just because they are not used, does not mean fighting will not occur...

The capability of those we are going to fight in the next 20 years is going to develop at a RAPID pace as a function of the internet and the promulgation of education around the world that we have facilitated...

Everything that you are saying is a variation of the same stuff that people said after WWI ( "the war to end all wars"). "No one will do this", "no one will do that", "It would be insane to do X, Y, or Z"...

All the while Germany and Japan built war machines while the US and Europe were dismantling theirs...

The F22 represents much more than just a VERY capable dog-fighter... MUCH more... Some of that lives in the JSF, but not all of it... The JSF is an exercise in design by committee... Compromise after compromise - something for everyone...

I am not suggesting that we blindly build a plane to fight the Soviet Union that no longer exists, but we are foolish and arrogant to think that we can ignore future technologically advanced threats...

 

[Cmaro21]

...

 

[TomH]

Halting production of the F-22 is one of the decisions made by the current administration that I think actually make sense. Besides, no one (DOD, Pentago or the White House) wanted it.

Why do we need the F-22? It's a air-to-air combat aircraft. Who are we going to fight? No one has an airforce anymore. There are no more superpowers. Russia, China, Iran, North Korea - no one has an aircraft that can even begin to match the F-22. IIRC, the last tests gave it a 108 to zero kill ratio against the nearest foreign competitor.

So why spend BILLIONS of dollars on a weapons system developed to fight an enemy that doesn't exist? That's the definition of PORK right there (and the only people who put up a fight were congressment from the districts where the plane was being built). Money should (and was, IIRC) redirected to programs we may actually need - the joint strike fighter, tankers, drones, etc.

Exactly. No one has air capability that defeats aircraft we've had around for decades. The threats we see nowadays are in the form of terrorism mostly. Potential also for nuclear attacks. I don't see us getting into any dogfights with other aircraft anytime soon. We should watch the competition and do what's necessary to counter the actual threats.

 

[radioman]

I just read this entire thread. Wow!! There are many folks here that seem comfortable with there heads firmly planted in the sand. All the "that won't happen" and the "They'll never do that" kind of comments are very misinformed. If you don't think the U.S. could ever be invaded well look around it's being invaded as we speak. Just this week 4 plots broken up by law enforcement. The first 200 years of this nation people came here so they could be Americans. They changed there names, there language, and there very way of being to be an American. Now, people come here just to be in America. They bring there own language, there own culture, etc.. and expect everyone to yield to them and there little microcosm of there former country they've built here in the U.S. They even fly there own flag instead of O'l Glory! This isn't right in my book. If you come here it's English, assimilation and stars and stripes forever. Forget this PC junk.
It's most likely Israel will do something any day now. If this happens do you think the U.S. will sit by and do nothing? I hope not. We did wait many years to get involved in WWII but I would hope that would not happen this time. I know the current administration doesn't like Israel but I think the majority of the American people will stand with them. I know I would. I think we need to spend all the money we can on defense and not on things people should provide for themselves such as health care and welfare. The F-22 is aces in my book. I don't care if it has a 188 to 1 kill ratio or whatever was quoted. I'm all for it. I'm wondering what ratio the poster would be comfortable with?? What if it were his kid flying the jet? I would build them with a 1000 to 1 ratio. I want to fight the most lopsided battle I can. I want the biggest stick. Enough of this all nations are equal crap. We're not equal with other nations we're better!!! That's right we're better!! Why do you think everybody on the planet wants to come here? We, or if not we, our forefathers built the best nation this planet has ever seen. All for us and our children to live in and it's our responsibility to preserve it!! This nation has cured the most diseases, freed the most oppressed, overthrown the most dictators, fed the most hungry, and still supports the most nations in the form of financial help. I'm sick of hearing how bad America is or was or will be. We need to get back to what ever made us great in the first place. Lets start with hard work and not the nanny state that's trying to be instituted as we speak. I'm glad I added a new line to my signature so I don't have to write it out every time it applies.