Motorola 2 way Radios

[gene]

So I picked up a couple of 22 channel radio's (Motorola) for my survival gear. the instructions say I should get a license for certain channels and as these are In case SHTF equipment I'm thinking screw the rules. It's not like I am going to use them on a daily basis. Anyone know why I should apply for a gubberment licence to use these? The range is .5 watts no license to 1.5 watts requires license.

I really know nothing about these things except that I would want to keep in touch with family if the SHTF.

 

[atmay]

Most of the channels (1-14 usually) on these fall under the Family Radio Service, which is designed for exactly what you want to use these radios for. The rest of the channels come under the Gen. Mobile Radio Service, which is intended for commercial usage. The license is $85/5 years, with no exam.

For now, I would get the license. That way, you cover your ass while written law is still the law of the land, and in the event of a nationwide breakdown of law, I doubt they'll go searching for folks with GMRS licenses.

 

[daveyburt]

from what i understand about radio licensing (which isn't much), you can listen to any band/frequency you want. the license is required to talk on those licensed channels.

you're a great listener, aren't you?!

 

[n1oty]

If you want some decent SHTF Motorola radios, get rid of the low power GMRS/FRS radios you bought and purchase some 5 watt, public safety grade radios. Some good ones are available for very short money.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

get rid of the low power GMRS/FRS radios you bought and purchase some 5 watt, public safety grade radios. Some good ones are available for very short money.

What is the situation with regards to licensing and frequency assignment on these?

 

[n1oty]

They are not legal for FRS, but are perfect for GMRS and amateur radio. Here's a link to one on ebay as an example of some that I have:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130418734297&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

$400 is certainly a lot more than a bubble pack radio costs, but this has full 5 watts output, is an "R" split so it can be programmed from 403 to 470 MHZ, is flashed for P25 digital audio (legal on the ham bands) and has the DES-XL/DES-OFB encryption module (which basically means it will do DES grade encryption in both analog and digital voice modes). Some department or Fed agency probably spent $3000 on this radio a few years ago and it is now available for $400. A steal in my estimation for a P25 public safety grade radio.

What is the situation with regards to licensing and frequency assignment on these?

 

[drgrant]

If you want some decent SHTF Motorola radios, get rid of the low power GMRS/FRS radios you bought and purchase some 5 watt, public safety grade radios. Some good ones are available for very short money.

Problem with this is you need RSS to program them. If you steal RSS and Motorola finds out about it, they will basically force you to sell a kidney in court. So don't steal RSS, and pay the $600 or whatever it costs. OR ELSE! Unless their "fetish" about their overpriced intellectual property has changed, I wouldn't touch commercial motos for this reason alone. They do make a killer radio though. On the other hand I could be misinformed and there might be some guy making GNU/GPL/freeware to program the things, or Moto could have backed off.

On the other side of the fence you can get software for commercial icom radios for under $100, IIRC, and they won't come after their customers with torches and pitchforks.

-Mike

 

[n1oty]

Actually, I agree with you generally. I do have Icom and Kenwood commercial radios, too. The programming software is dirt cheap. I am currently doing a lot of experimentation with Icom and Kenwood iDAS/Nexedge radios. I probably did not make myself clear enough. That one link was meant as simply one example. On the other hand, legit Moto software can be purchased for about $275. I do have some Moto radios and bought the legit software from them. My greatest concern with these so-called "bubblepack" radios is that they are generally low powered and more fragile than a real radio. If the purpose of the radio, or radio's, is SHTF, I personally want the best.

Problem with this is you need RSS to program them. If you steal RSS and Motorola finds out about it, they will basically force you to sell a kidney in court. So don't steal RSS, and pay the $600 or whatever it costs. OR ELSE! Unless their "fetish" about their overpriced intellectual property has changed, I wouldn't touch commercial motos for this reason alone. They do make a killer radio though. On the other hand I could be misinformed and there might be some guy making GNU/GPL/freeware to program the things, or Moto could have backed off.

On the other side of the fence you can get software for commercial icom radios for under $100, IIRC, and they won't come after their customers with torches and pitchforks.

-Mike

 

[Titan]

Actually, I agree with you generally. I do have Icom and Kenwood commercial radios, too. The programming software is dirt cheap. I am currently doing a lot of experimentation with Icom and Kenwood iDAS/Nexedge radios. I probably did not make myself clear enough. That one link was meant as simply one example. On the other hand, legit Moto software can be purchased for about $275. I do have some Moto radios and bought the legit software from them. My greatest concern with these so-called "bubblepack" radios is that they are generally low powered and more fragile than a real radio. If the purpose of the radio, or radio's, is SHTF, I personally want the best.

I understand the part about wanting the best. However, it sounds like a single radio you're suggesting is now at least $675.00 with each additional unit about $400.00 or more. Please correct me if wrong (if license costs rise with each radio, etc.).

That's a ton more money than the FRS/GMRS radios. I've had a couple of pairs of these and they've given very active and reliable service for five plus years. The price difference can be a big factor, although the range is obviously more limited on the lower cost units.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Bubble pack radios have their place - they are great for running shooting matches since they are cheap enough for every staffer to have one. The power has been good enough to cover any range I have ever been at, and the match administrators can treat them with the care and tracking due a $25 asset rather than that required for a $400+ unit.

 

[gene]

Actually for my purposes, the intent of these is to maintain contact with my immediate family over short distance in the even we lose phone service.

 

[ShadeWPI]

It's all a matter of range and privacy.

An FRS handset it generally good for about 1 mile rural terrain, 2-3 miles open field (no trees) and less than a half mile in urban envionrments (concrete blocks radio signals very effectively

A GMRS handset puts out more power and has a better penetrating frquency (hense the license) they're typically good to about 2x the range of an FRS radio. A GMRS / FRS radio will have better range in GMRS mode than in FRS mode due to frequency and higher transmission power.

The above radios rarely come with any privacy features, such as encryption. They're "Pricacy" feature is a squeltch that is transmitted with the main signal. This doesn't prevent someone else from listening to your message, it just helps the radio filter out unwanted traffic on the same frequency. Anyone on the same frequeny not running squeltch can still hear you.

The 5-watt emergency services radios are a lot more power and 2-3x the range of a GMRS handset. In addition, many can be programmed for seperate transmit and recieve frequencies for use with higher power repeaters to futher extend range and coverage.

These radios can also offer true encryption that prevents easdropping for privacy. Some even offer Digital Spread Spectrum, that increases range, reduces interferance and improves transmission quality.

Figure out how much range you think you'll need and pick the option that fits best for you.

 

[economist]

Problem with this is you need RSS to program them. If you steal RSS and Motorola finds out about it, they will basically force you to sell a kidney in court. So don't steal RSS, and pay the $600 or whatever it costs. OR ELSE! Unless their "fetish" about their overpriced intellectual property has changed, I wouldn't touch commercial motos for this reason alone. They do make a killer radio though. On the other hand I could be misinformed and there might be some guy making GNU/GPL/freeware to program the things, or Moto could have backed off.

On the other side of the fence you can get software for commercial icom radios for under $100, IIRC, and they won't come after their customers with torches and pitchforks.

-Mike

That's helpful. Not because I really understand it, but because it shows me there is a lot to know. I have a pair of those cheap Motorola radios and they are OK, but I would really like something better. However, every time I think about it there seems to be an unbelievable amount of complexity involved. All I would want is very good range (5W radio?), very simple operation, and encryption would be a big plus. Looking at Motorola and ICOM it seems like they offer a huge number of radios, each one has all sorts of features, and people talk about software and programming. Plus there is the licensing business. Is there any simple way to get a great radio (smaller is better) that has significantly better range than consumer quality, offers privacy, but is as easy to use as consumer radios?

 

[n1oty]

Cost is certainly one of many factors to be considered. Range of the radio's is another. I have a cousin who accidently stepped on his bubblepack FRS/GMRS radio and it broke into a bunch of small pieces. Compare that to some of my radio's where they usually survive drops, getting stepped on and, in a pinch, make a dandy club. As for software, well, there are many ways to handle that. You can have someone else program the radio's. Hams do this for each other all the time. Sure, if you want absolute control, obtaining the programming software and cable is a good idea, but not really necessary.

I am simply pointing out that there are alternatives to these cheaply constructed bubblepack radio's with limited power, limited quality and limited features. I have some Moto mobiles that put out in the area of 100 to 110 watts on VHF or UHF, should the need arise. Trust me, I'll get a lot further range on those than any bubblepack radio, even if the bubblepack has a removeable antenna allowing it to be hooked up to something better. My point is that I want others to realize that there are quality alternatives when it comes to comms. Each person in this thread has to make that determination for themselves.

I understand the part about wanting the best. However, it sounds like a single radio you're suggesting is now at least $675.00 with each additional unit about $400.00 or more. Please correct me if wrong (if license costs rise with each radio, etc.).

That's a ton more money than the FRS/GMRS radios. I've had a couple of pairs of these and they've given very active and reliable service for five plus years. The price difference can be a big factor, although the range is obviously more limited on the lower cost units.

 

[glostamon]

I'd go Marine VHF (rugged handsets w/better range), plus if your inland your less apt to being monitored.

 

[Coyote33]

I'd go Marine VHF (rugged handsets w/better range), plus if your inland your less apt to being monitored.

Reading through these, I was thinking the same thing. They also offer some protection from the elements.

That, or CB radios from either yard sales or Radio Shack. You could have CB's at various locations running off an old car battery.

 

[eric_07]

Don't forget to think about how you're going to power all these radios... you need to consider batteries, cost, life of charge, etc. because you're most likely not going to have any power... a $1000 radio doesn't help you when the battery is dead. El cheapo walkie-talkie that you can run off AAs is going to be more "universal" when you're scrounging around looking for power.

 

[Daniel Boone]

It's kind of hard to get in on a topic that is 6 months old, but some of the most basic principals here have been forgotten.
First off is the fact that I believe that the reason why the manufacturers advertised that you needed a license to operate these radios was due to the fact that you can purchase over the counter both the bubble pack radios and the base station.

Although in the grand scheme of things 1/2 a watt or even 1 full watt does not seem like a lot of power.
BUT
All signals reduces at the square of the distance.
Just like a flashlight, it only shines so far and then it stops.
When you focus the beam of the light, it shines further, but the width of the beam gets smaller to make it protrude forward.
We can call this forward gain or front to back ratio or what ever we want.
The bottom line is that a 5 watt radio is maybe 150% more powerful then a 1 watt radio.
1 watt is enough power, with the right antenna to transmit at 450 mhz for about 18 miles - clear line of sight.
2 watts would be twice as powerful - but the net gain of two watts would only be maybe another 1 or 2 miles.
4 watts would be twice as powerful as 2 watts - but again for only nominal gains - the looser is the battery pack. Every time you double the power in transmit - you also double the power consumption.
IfTSHTF - you would want to have a radio that would last for more then one day on a battery charge.

Here is a comparison.
My first real radio was a walkie talkie tuned to CB channel 11 is 27.085 Mhz.
With a .500 Mw walkie talkie - you could turn it on in the morning, go hunting all day - maybe two days and transmit 10% of the time and still have a little left in the 1 9 volt battery at the end of two days.
1/2 a watt at 27 Mhz with a 5' long antenna was enough to transmit about 2 miles out in the woods.
My second radio was a Midland 1 watt walkie talkie, it ran on 8 penlight batteries and was 12 volts. It would probably transmit 2 - 3 miles and it had a little more sound to it and it could receive a little better then the cheaper 1/2 watt radio - but at the expense of those 8 pen light batteries.
At the end of two days - you were looking for new batteries because they were dead.
So I moved up to a 5 watt walkie talkie.
With 5 watts - full power, a 5 foot long antenna, you could transmit and receive a maximum range of about 5 miles, but the batteries were drained twice as fast.

So we moved up to a Motorola Talkabout Distance DPS.
It had 7 regular channels, 3 spare channels and a scan feature.
The battery pack was probably 12 volts and it took at least 24 hours to charge it the first time and a additional 12 hours for every charge beyond that for the life of the battery.
It was one watt - with a slightly larger antenna then a bubble pack radio and it would transmit about 2 miles in the woods or maybe about 8 miles on the beach.
When the batteries wore out - they wanted $40 for a new battery and it was relegated to the toy box.
So I bought two radios for about the price of two batteries.
Motorola T 5620 with charging stands for about $80.00
Their antenna was 50% shorter then the Talkabout DPS and their range was significantly less - say maybe less then 2 miles in the woods depending on terrain and maybe 8 miles - clear line of sight.
At the same time - my other brother bought two similar Motorola Walkie Talkies that did not have a rechargeable battery and they were burning up batteries at a rate of about 4 pen light batteries per a day - 10 hours.
So we bought another set of radios that were on sale that also did not come with a rechargeable battery ..
Again - those radios were rated at one watt and they used two pen light batteries and they burned up a set of batteries about every 12 hours.
This radio was a little more efficient then the others - but again at the expense of range.
So my brother and I purchased a new set of Motorola T 7400 radios.
They came with a rechargeable battery, two charging stands and a slightly longer antenna and more channels.
On average we can use them sparingly about a whole week and can go 3 - 4 days without needing a recharge.
Their advertised range - LOS is about 18 miles.
They will transmit about two miles in the woods and about 5 - 10 miles - in the real world - if the transmit and receive had a clear LOS between them.

So basically I spent $800 in 30 years on radios and in the end the only difference between the $100 CB walkie talkie and the $100 GMRS radio is the fact that I don't have to listen to those border blasters in Texas that uses linear amplifiers and beam antenna's and can transmit practically the whole way around the world with 500 watts of power - as long as both the transmit and receive has equally powerful amplifiers and antenna and radio systems.

My GMRS has some traffic - depending on how busy a area I am in and which channel I select.
It always ends up being a fight because one person always thinks that they are smarter then the other and that they have some lucky number that they can use where no one is going to listen to them and they are not going to have to listen to the other people with similar radios.
The worst is always the open channels such as 1-1, 2-1, 3-1 etc.....
The next worst is the double numbers 2-2, 3-3, 4-4, 5-5, 6-6, 7-7 etc...

Then you get into the situation of where one person cannot hear and needs to wear a hearing aid but doesn't have one and so they use the door bell to alert the other person that they would like to talk to them.
The only problem is - with multiple people on the same channel - that are trying to be quiet - such as in a hunting scenario - the one person that cannot hear ruins it for all the others because all you hear on your radio all day is those people ringing each other as if they were in the mall talking on their cell phones.
What is even worse is when you get one person that is higher in elevation then the others and has a better radio then the others and cannot turn down their volume low enough to avoid the noise - yet needs to have the volume turned high enough in case you actually want to hear what those idiots are saying - after all - that is the reason why you bought the radios in the first place.

So it all just ends up being a fight and in the end, you end up carrying two radios. One to talk to your hunting partner - that is on a private channel - that the others are not on and a second radio - that can listen to the other people in the hunting party - that is making all the noise.

It gets to the point of where it gets worse then the CB radio.

Now add to all of this that Iftshtf - there is going to be 1 million other people that has the same idea as you.
The only way those radios would work would be if the cell towers and the phone lines were down and there was no other way of communicating between two people.

Even the GMRS would become so congested in a couple of days that you wouldn't be able to find a open channel.
The HAM radio operator would have more options then the GMRS and could just change bands until they found a frequency with a open band that did not have someone else in the same general area - stepping all over their frequency to try to communicate.

No matter how hard you try - you are always going to have a hard time trying to find an open channel. No matter how many watts etc.
The first time you go into a secluded area with trees or into a downtown city - the range is once again going to be just line of sight because the UHF vs VHF is like sound vs light.

VHF is like sound, when you yell the sound goes in all directions.
It will go up one hill and down the next. It will go around buildings and through buildings depending on the building materials used in the construction of the building.

UHF is like a flashlight, if you shine it up, the light does not come back down unless there is something for it to bounce off of.
If you shine it east, it does not go west. If you shine it north it does not go south. If you shine it at the side of a hill - it does not come out the other side - like a buggs bunny cartoon.
You are very limited in what you can do with UHF communications without a repeater. Even with a repeater - you would need for your radio to be able to be in range with the repeater for it to communicate more then a couple of miles.

Your cell phones transmits in the range of about 869 - 913 mhz.
How many times have you driven down the road where you could see the light blinking on the tower - yet had poor service or no service at all.
Or that the tower dropped your call because it could not make the handshake between towers as you were driving down the road.
The reason why the phones transmit at that frequency was because they did experiments and found that the higher frequencies worked best for digital communications and so they took those frequencies away from the television people and sold them to the phone people for billions of dollars.
Again when television switched from analog to digital - it was not to make it better, but to appease the people who bought those wide screen televisions and wanted high definition reception.
It was once again at the cost of having to sell off the upper frequencies that the television stations occupied. The cell phone and GMRS people paid billions of dollars to the FCC in the way of licenses and fees to get those frequencies.

Once again the FCC messed up because they could have taken away the entire VHF spectrum and moved all television up into the UHF which would have necessitated the use of a UHF antenna on all the OTA reception and would have done away with the VHF antenna's which are larger and a bigger eye sore to some people.
But the VHF is more susceptible to atmosphere noise, ambient noise, along with brush, motor and switch noise - anything electrical interferes with it - just like your old AM radio.
But it takes less power to transmit on the VHF side and less effort to make the signal go the same distance and the transmitter towers were already built - so they allowed it.

At the same time - all of the State Police in my area is part of OPEN SKY - which is a 800 mhz digital format P 25 which cannot be listened to with a regular analog scanner or a scanner that does not have the right codes programmed into them.

The public service - local police, fire, ambulance etc has been moved out of the 155 mhz band and up into the 450 mhz band.

So this would have opened up a whole can of worms had they abandoned the lower ranges and gave those frequencies to the ham radio and public radio people - such as making a band in VHF like the CB which would have alleviated all the radio congestion in the upper bands which caused all these problems in the first place.

The end result is that the FCC is getting ready to get rid of more television frequencies and moving all those stations either to cable networks or to the satellite - because they need the revenue which only the cell phone people can generate - in large gobs.

So everything we take for granted right now - will soon be a pay as you go option for most people and the people who lives too far off the grid - are going to be SOL!

When this happens - and you people talk about the WTSHTF - all a foreign country or militant group would have to do is attack the satellites and the land line communications and create some kind of electrical pulse that would wipe out most of the electronics communications capacity of the country and within a day the whole country would go dark.
After that - you wouldn't have to invade it.
The people would up-rise and would fight amongst themselves and the whole country would look like one big apocalypse.

These people who are so dependent on communications to live their lives wouldn't know what to do with themselves once the cell phones had no service. They couldn't even call the phone company to get it fixed.
How stupid are they ?

Then the people with the most efficient means of communications will be the ones with the Ham and CB radios and not the GMRS or other line of sight modes of communications.

 

[n1oty]

I'm sure that most folks that take comms seriously are ahead of the curve with regards to backup power.

Don't forget to think about how you're going to power all these radios... you need to consider batteries, cost, life of charge, etc. because you're most likely not going to have any power... a $1000 radio doesn't help you when the battery is dead. El cheapo walkie-talkie that you can run off AAs is going to be more "universal" when you're scrounging around looking for power.

 

[Maxpower]

I'd go Marine VHF (rugged handsets w/better range), plus if your inland your less apt to being monitored.

I realize this thread is based on a SHTF scenario, where certain laws might not be enforceable, but under normal circumstances, I believe this is illegal.

 

[Coyote33]

Seeing as half the other posts are ignoring licenses, why start now?

 

[rudiewhitebwoy]

I'd go Marine VHF (rugged handsets w/better range), plus if your inland your less apt to being monitored.

I think I read that on JWR's Survival Blog, it makes sense, when I move away from the coast.

 

[glostamon]

I realize this thread is based on a SHTF scenario, where certain laws might not be enforceable, but under normal circumstances, I believe this is illegal.

its not illegal... ch.16 or channel 9 which are distress/emergency only traffic,aswell as ahandful of other designated hailing or USCG channels are off limits.

However you can talk all the "Rag time" you want on working channels,lobstermen do it everyday...its not illegal

 

[glostamon]

For me the marine VHF makes sense because I'm on the water alot.

I bought a Standard Horizon HX370S it transmits 5W and is submersible, has weather channels and a high intensity strobe.
This unit is also programable I've added local fire (recieve only),a local towing co. and DPW.

http://www.standardhorizon.com/inde...68BB3F44D8AA75A4A0E&DivisionID=3&isArchived=0

My thinking is inland people would probally have CBs & family frequency 2-ways etc, and Marine VHF is less likley to be monitored (unless your around the great lakes)

Make purchaes on what you'll use most often,if it has SHTF value its a bonus.

 

[CelticSteve70]

Can I offer my two cents? I have worked in the two-way radio field (sales & service). In addition to having personally owned many "Off-the-shelf" FRS radios, I have Motorola commercial radios that were purchased and programmed specifically for hunting and outdoor use. These worked well and were certainly tough. Lately, the undisputed all-around champ are the Garmin Rino Series Radios. These are the ultimate SHTF radio gear. They are AMAZING! Very tough, compact enough for easy carry, waterproof, and offer great battery life (full day and a half or more, all day hunting use between charges). They have a few models, but the 530 has the best GPS. It picks up locations even tucked inside a heavy hunting coat or pack. As for radio performance, they have user adjustable power levels up to five watts. Because they have FRS and GMRS frequencies, you don't "need" to be licensed to use them. They offer voice scrambling for privacy, and some repeater channels for extended range when available. When hunting with several guys, we can "see" on the GPS where each other are if needed, which is nice. Topo maps can be added. Altimeter, lunar calendars, alarms, and many other features make them multi-purpose. Garmin suggested price isn't cheap ($400 for the top model 530), but when you shop around for them, you will find them for less, which makes them a much better value than any commercial use radio-only setup. Check them out at Gamins' site here: https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=146&fKeys=FILTER_SERIES_RINO&ra=true
Just my humble opinion.

 

[strangenh]

They offer voice scrambling for privacy[...]

Are you referring to squelch codes?

ETA - No, from the online manual I see it's not. It's a basic inversion "scramble" on FRS freqs only that can be trivially cracked, but it is definitely better than just the squelch code option.

 

[Maxpower]

its not illegal... ch.16 or channel 9 which are distress/emergency only traffic,aswell as ahandful of other designated hailing or USCG channels are off limits.

However you can talk all the "Rag time" you want on working channels,lobstermen do it everyday...its not illegal

This is from the FCC website. I may be interpreting it wrong.

Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land
You must have a special license, called a marine utility station license, to operate a hand-held marine radio from land -- a ship station license IS NOT sufficient. You may apply for this license by filing FCC Forms 159 and 605 with the FCC. To be eligible for a marine utility station license, you must generally provide some sort of service to ships or have control over a bridge or waterway. Additionally, you must show a need to communicate using hand-held portable equipment from both a ship and from coast locations. Each unit must be capable of operation while being hand-carried by an individual. The station operates under the rules applicable to ship stations when the unit is aboard a ship, and under the rules applicable to private coast stations when the unit is on land.

Seeing as half the other posts are ignoring licenses, why start now?

In case someone on this site finds and follows advice which may get them in trouble. Nothing more. It looks like I could be wrong anyways.

 

[glostamon]

This is from the FCC website. I may be interpreting it wrong.

In case someone on this site finds and follows advice which may get them in trouble. Nothing more. It looks like I could be wrong anyways.

good find,I'm gonna pass that info on to my non-FCC licensed lobstaman buddies who have VHFs in their pickups.

 

[Coyote33]

Anybody want to do a test of these some weekend? We all just agree to a channel and a time, and turn them on and see who turns up. Could be fun to try.

 

[Coyote33]

I'll put on the walkie talkie again tonight and tomorrow at various times if you feel like chatting.