Monson Man Convicted in Self-Defense Dog Shooting

[wolf223]

I'm glad the dude got served. Am I the only one that realizes that if these two dogs were you average Labs this wouldn't even be a story?

So does this dbag live in a screened in porch or something? No glass sliding door or maybe your traditional entry door? Going inside your house to get a shotgun and coming back out to shoot your neighbors dogs because they are in your back yards is just stupid. This guy must have been insane. While $15,000 is a lot to spend on your dog, if you have the money why not?

Most comments on this thread are outrageous too.

While I love almost all breeds of dog, bully breeds along with rottweilers and shepherds get a bad reputation. Kind of like all of us here on this board with our guns. Although we have the 2A rights by our side, we are still perceived in the eyes of our fellow constituents the same as these types of dogs listed above. "Misunderstood"

This case has nothing to do with self defense. It has to do with a crazy person with a shotgun thinking he can get away with killing a dog which is suppose to be dangerous.

yes & no.

you are quick to convict the gun owner though....

 

[securityboy]

I'm glad the dude got served. Am I the only one that realizes that if these two dogs were you average Labs this wouldn't even be a story?

So does this dbag live in a screened in porch or something? No glass sliding door or maybe your traditional entry door? Going inside your house to get a shotgun and coming back out to shoot your neighbors dogs because they are in your back yards is just stupid. This guy must have been insane. While $15,000 is a lot to spend on your dog, if you have the money why not?

Most comments on this thread are outrageous too.

While I love almost all breeds of dog, bully breeds along with rottweilers and shepherds get a bad reputation. Kind of like all of us here on this board with our guns. Although we have the 2A rights by our side, we are still perceived in the eyes of our fellow constituents the same as these types of dogs listed above. "Misunderstood"

This case has nothing to do with self defense. It has to do with a crazy person with a shotgun thinking he can get away with killing a dog which is suppose to be dangerous.

I agree...I will also take the "other side" on this one...and am surprised so many here would be so supportive of the shooter. My opinion is not because the shooter may or may not have been justified under the law or the validity of this judgement...But that situations like this do a dis-service to us the "gun community"...

When anti's say "if everyone had CCW permits we'd return to the trigger happy days of the wild west" stories like this help them make thier point. Guy gets chased by dogs (I have no problem shooting the dogs at that point), gets into his house shuts the door (as there is no mention that the dogs came in his house after him, if they did of course shoot), gets his gun (threat level at this point is much lower than it was moments ago), fires a "warning shot" (fantastic idea in a residential area), dogs start to run away (threat level really deminishing now), guy still shoots dogs...Sorry but inspite of the fact that acording to the MGL mentioned earlier he need only be "worried"...this is neither a shooting or "responsible" gun owner I would like to associate with...

Its funny I see this alot here on the internet boards and with discussions at the range, all to often we take someones side simply because they are "one of us" (a gun owner) and ignore the fact that they f'd up...

 

[wolf223]

Didn't Scrivener get a guy off that went home for his gun?

Respectfully,
jkelly

he may have. i don't know. but i'm glad he did.

anywho - nothing to see here.

*playing devils advocate

 

[DickWanner]

I'm glad the dude got served. Am I the only one that realizes that if these two dogs were you average Labs this wouldn't even be a story?

So does this dbag live in a screened in porch or something? No glass sliding door or maybe your traditional entry door? Going inside your house to get a shotgun and coming back out to shoot your neighbors dogs because they are in your back yards is just stupid. This guy must have been insane. While $15,000 is a lot to spend on your dog, if you have the money why not?

Most comments on this thread are outrageous too.

While I love almost all breeds of dog, bully breeds along with rottweilers and shepherds get a bad reputation. Kind of like all of us here on this board with our guns. Although we have the 2A rights by our side, we are still perceived in the eyes of our fellow constituents the same as these types of dogs listed above. "Misunderstood"

This case has nothing to do with self defense. It has to do with a crazy person with a shotgun thinking he can get away with killing a dog which is suppose to be dangerous.

I forgot to sign my Neg rep so I just wanted to make sure you knew who gave it. If this guy loved his dogs that much he would have kept them in his own damned yard. Even if the dogs weren't being threatening a man's property is just that. In Texas you're allowed to shoot to kill someone for simply trespassing and I fully agree with that. Some of the replies here only show how big the sheeple disease has spread. I love dogs just as much as anyone, but at the same time I realize that a pet owner needs to be FULLY and ABSOLUTELY responsible for his pet's actions. They're the one with the big brains, they need to use it.

 

[wolf223]

I agree...I will also take the "other side" on this one...and am surprised so many here would be so supportive of the shooter. My opinion is not because the shooter may or may not have been justified under the law or the validity of this judgement...But that situations like this do a dis-service to us the "gun community"...

When anti's say "if everyone had CCW permits we'd return to the trigger happy days of the wild west" stories like this help them make thier point. Guy gets chased by dogs (I have no problem shooting the dogs at that point), gets into his house shuts the door (as there is no mention that the dogs came in his house after him, if they did of course shoot), gets his gun (threat level at this point is much lower than it was moments ago), fires a "warning shot" (fantastic idea in a residential area), dogs start to run away (threat level really deminishing now), guy still shoots dogs...Sorry but inspite of the fact that acording to the MGL mentioned earlier he need only be "worried"...this is neither a shooting or "responsible" gun owner I would like to associate with...

Its funny I see this alot here on the internet boards and with discussions at the range, all to often we take someones side simply because they are "one of us" (a gun owner) and ignore the fact that they f'd up...

if Paris Hilton let her ankle biter onto my lawn to take a crap, i should be able to shoot it.

why? because there are leash laws and equivalent to a random stranger coming on your porch.

dogs do NOT understand "GTFO I Have a gun and i'm going to pop one"...

so, IMO, i don't care if the dog was dropping a deuce or barking. it's off the leash and on my property.

unfortunatley, the dog(s) are the victims to douch bag owner...

would you let me come on your porch and yell at you? would you retreat and "call 911"???? and hope that they get there in time.

it should go back to the wild-wild west where people don't F with other people and show some GD respect or get shot.

 

[DickWanner]

I agree...I will also take the "other side" on this one...and am surprised so many here would be so supportive of the shooter. My opinion is not because the shooter may or may not have been justified under the law or the validity of this judgement...But that situations like this do a dis-service to us the "gun community"...

When anti's say "if everyone had CCW permits we'd return to the trigger happy days of the wild west" stories like this help them make thier point. Guy gets chased by dogs (I have no problem shooting the dogs at that point), gets into his house shuts the door (as there is no mention that the dogs came in his house after him, if they did of course shoot), gets his gun (threat level at this point is much lower than it was moments ago), fires a "warning shot" (fantastic idea in a residential area), dogs start to run away (threat level really deminishing now), guy still shoots dogs...Sorry but inspite of the fact that acording to the MGL mentioned earlier he need only be "worried"...this is neither a shooting or "responsible" gun owner I would like to associate with...

Its funny I see this alot here on the internet boards and with discussions at the range, all to often we take someones side simply because they are "one of us" (a gun owner) and ignore the fact that they f'd up...

No, we took his side because he had animals on his property which did not belong. If this were an occurance in Wyoming nothing would be said further. Because we're in the shithole of the PRM this guy now has three criminal convictions on his record.

WHAH-WHAH-WHAH, poor doggies. What are we a bunch of PETA freaks? Not once has anyone who's said the shooter was in the wrong held the pet owner accountable for his actions. You're no worse than the liberals clearing the father from wrong-doing in the death at the Westfield MG shoot.

 

[JonJ]

I'm not going to second guess the jury. I didn't hear everything that was presented to them. Based only on what little there is in the articles I've seen there was no need to shoot once he was inside and away from the dogs. Shooting at the retreating dog sealed this guys fate.

 

[DickWanner]

if Paris Hilton let her ankle biter onto my lawn to take a crap, i should be able to shoot it.

why? because there are leash laws and equivalent to a random stranger coming on your porch.

dogs do NOT understand "GTFO I Have a gun and i'm going to pop one"...

so, IMO, i don't care if the dog was dropping a deuce or barking. it's off the leash and on my property.

unfortunatley, the dog(s) are the victims to douch bag owner...

would you let me come on your porch and yell at you? would you retreat and "call 911"???? and hope that they get there in time.

it should go back to the wild-wild west where people don't F with other people and show some GD respect or get shot.

Amen Chester. I can't blame these few posters though. They're doing and acting exactly like they've been trained to do

 

[ASHDUMP]

I forgot to sign my Neg rep so I just wanted to make sure you knew who gave it. If this guy loved his dogs that much he would have kept them in his own damned yard. Even if the dogs weren't being threatening a man's property is just that. In Texas you're allowed to shoot to kill someone for simply trespassing and I fully agree with that. Some of the replies here only show how big the sheeple disease has spread. I love dogs just as much as anyone, but at the same time I realize that a pet owner needs to be FULLY and ABSOLUTELY responsible for his pet's actions. They're the one with the big brains, they need to use it.

No negative rep from me. I think you need to get your head checked though. You've got to be a complete coward to shoot someone else's dog that might be roaming on your property. ...or maybe you have no property and you're just wondering what it would be like to protect something that not being threatened at all? I don't know, you tell me.

Last time I checked, people down in Texas love their trucks, dogs and guns. You should visit more often.

 

[DickWanner]

I'm not going to second guess the jury. I didn't hear everything that was presented to them. Based only on what little there is in the articles I've seen there was no need to shoot once he was inside and away from the dogs. Shooting at the retreating dog sealed this guys fate.

I'll agree that he was in the wrong in the eyes of the law, but morally he should have been 100% justified.

 

[DickWanner]

No negative rep from me. I think you need to get your head checked though. You've got to be a complete coward to shoot someone else's dog that might be roaming on your property. ...or maybe you have no property and you're just wondering what it would be like to protect something that not being threatened at all? I don't know, you tell me.

Last time I checked, people down in Texas love their trucks, dogs and guns. You should visit more often.

Yea, there's no neg rep FROM you because I GAVE it to you. Why is someone else's dog roaming on your property anyways. If I loved my dogs I would make sure that they're kept safe on my property. Either that or I'm just an irresponsible pet owner who cries foul at the other guy because I'm too much of an asshat to be the responsible one.

 

[ASHDUMP]

Yea, there's no neg rep FROM you because I GAVE it to you. Why is someone else's dog roaming on your property anyways. If I loved my dogs I would make sure that they're kept safe on my property. Either that or I'm just an irresponsible pet owner who cries foul at the other guy because I'm too much of an asshat to be the responsible one.

I guess theres a first time for everything.... I forgot to sign mine as well, so I just want to make sure you know where it came from.

 

[iefstath]

I've gotta say I could easily have been in this situation myself a few weeks ago...I was visting my girlfriend in worcester and when I stepped out of my truck and shut the door there was a roughly 80 pound pitbull standing, no leash and no collar, about 10 ft away. I slowly walked to her front door and it followed but it never lunged or growled, but you can bet my hand was on my pistol grip incase it did. I shut the door as it got to the stoop, called animal control and left a message, its been three weeks and no return call. Im more worried about all the kids that live in the neighborhood than myself but had that dog gotten any closer, I cant say I wouldnt have reacted differently...bad "stereotyping" be damned.

 

[DickWanner]

I guess theres a first time for everything.... I forgot to sign mine as well, so I just want to make sure you know where it came from.

"Ah, what the hell. Here ya go."

Real good reason for a neg rep if I've ever seen one . Good thing I have plenty to spare

 

[securityboy]

if Paris Hilton let her ankle biter onto my lawn to take a crap, i should be able to shoot it. why? because there are leash laws and equivalent to a random stranger coming on your porch.

I see so are you saying a violation of a town by law is the legal equivalant to criminal tresspass, and that both should be considered capital offenses? OR are you saying that chuawa's (sp?) and girlscouts selling cookies (strangers on the porch) casue you such fright that you fear for your life and would be justified to shoot them?

would you let me come on your porch and yell at you? would you retreat and "call 911"???? and hope that they get there in time.

You can come yell all you want, till you yell "i'm going to harm/maim/kill you" yelling isn't much of a threat to me...Of course once you cross that line of "threat" then you had best hope "911" gets to you in time...

No, we took his side because he had animals on his property which did not belong. If this were an occurance in Wyoming nothing would be said further. Because we're in the shithole of the PRM this guy now has three criminal convictions on his record...

I live in suburbia of MA, yet still manage to have a nice little "gentlemans farm" and have in fact dispatched various "critters" that were actively posing a threat to my livestock, with never so much as raised eyebrow of the local law...Of course I don't go randomly firing off shots everytime some stray dare invade "MY PROPERTY"...

WHAH-WHAH-WHAH, poor doggies. What are we a bunch of PETA freaks? Not once has anyone who's said the shooter was in the wrong held the pet owner accountable for his actions..

If you read my post I only spoke of "dogs" in relation ship to thier role in the story, my commentary relates to level of threat (be it posed by a dog or whatever). My argument has nothing to do with dogs, it has to do with timely/appropriate response to level of threat.

You're no worse than the liberals clearing the father from wrong-doing in the death at the Westfield MG shoot.

Actually if you want my opinion in westfield, yes I think the father is/was responsible for his sons safety, but I don't think anyone should have faced charges, unfortunately in life sometime shit happens. And that is where we differ most, I don't always need to blame someone else, sometimes you need to be held accountable for your own actions/inactions...

 

[Rob Boudrie]

A well known lawyer I know tried a dog case and won. He convinced his client to opt for a bench trial because "no way was I putting that before a jury", and argued the case based on the law.

If someone is going to keep a gun for defense, they should familiarize themselves with applicable law before hand. Also, the statement read in court about "shooting the dog when running" was - you guessed it - made by a suspect who did not invoke his right to remain silent and speak only in the presence of his attorney.

He has a felony conviction now. I wonder what his plea offer was, and if the felony will cost him his bar card.

 

[jaypap]

Monsanto meatball would have been a better solution.

 

[JonJ]

A well known lawyer I know tried a dog case and won. He convinced his client to opt for a bench trial because "no way was I putting that before a jury", and argued the case based on the law.

If someone is going to keep a gun for defense, they should familiarize themselves with applicable law before hand. Also, the statement read in court about "shooting the dog when running" was - you guessed it - made by a suspect who did not invoke his right to remain silent and speak only in the presence of his attorney.

He has a felony conviction now. I wonder what his plea offer was, and if the felony will cost him his bar card.

The Foxboro case? That was a bit different if I remember. The dog or dogs were actively attacking the man's livestock, right?

 

[Tara]

Am I the only one that realizes that if these two dogs were you average Labs this wouldn't even be a story?

Even if 2 Labs were approaching me aggressively, they'd meet the same fate. ALL dogs have teeth.
If the dog owner loved his damn pets so mch, he would have made damn sure they didn't get loose 4 days after moving in. ESPECIALLY a large breed dog that has a bad reputation.
The shooter should probably have not gone inside then come back out to shoot the dogs, as I said several pages back. However, people do some impulsive htings when they are scared. If the dog owner was so concerned about his pets, he would have made sure something like this couldn't happen. And who better to know the laws about dogs than a lawyer?
I love animals, and I would have an awfully hard time shooting a dog. However, if I feel my daughters safety is at risk, I'm shooting first and asking questions later. I won't risk her life because some jacka$$ couldn't keep his dogs penned. Am I supposed to ask the dog if he means any harm? I think not.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The Foxboro case? That was a bit different if I remember. The dog or dogs were actively attacking the man's livestock, right?

There were some differences, but the key point is that in rare cases where you are basic your case on a point of law rather than "did you do it?", it may be better to trust a judge than the emotions of 6 or 12 citizens. But, as Linda Hamilton learned, the opposite can also be very true.

 

[Tara]

And here's a story for ya.

About 7 months ago, while in NC, I was getting my daughter out of the truck. I hear nails clacking on the concrete behind me. I turn around and there is the biggest "pit bull" I have ever seen. It's in quotes because it could have been one of the dogs most commonly mistaken for Pits, such as a Cane Corso or Presa Canario. He was HUGE, cropped ears and everything.
When I saw him, I stood in the door of the truck, blocking him from my daughter.
I won't lie, I was terrified. Until he licked my feet, sat and wiggled his big a$$. At that time, I felt he meant me no harm. This sounds stupid, but I could see it in his eyes that he meant no harm to us. He didn't charge me, he trotted over to me. So I grabbed my pocket knife just in case, hoisted my daughter onto my shoulders and walked towards the house. He licked my hand along the way.
That dog stayed at my front door whining for a good hour. I called animal control.
Not because I was scared OF him, because I was scared FOR him, that he would be shot for looking like a typical aggressive "Pit".
They showed up about 45 minutes later, and he was still at my door. When he saw the AC officers pull up, he did what I call the happy dog dance, ran over to them and sat at their feet. The lady officer said "oh you're such meanie, aren't ya? Such a terrifying creature", all while he was lapping up the attention he was receiving.
She opened the back door to the truck and he jumped right in. She thanked me for calling and told me there was no doubt in her mind he owuldn't have survived the night if I hadn't called. People in our area are quick to shoot dogs that are at large, because we were outside city limits. And unless there's a witness to say the dog was not acting aggressive when it was shot, there's nothing that can be done legally.
I felt good that he made his way to my house, instead of the animal haters down the road. I could have been that person that didn't bother to see if he was aggressive, but I wasn't. And I'm glad I didn't have ot live with tha ton my conscience. However, had it been a Lab, Poodle, Schnauzer or Collie, I would have reacted the same way. You just can't predict a strange dog's behavior.


Ok, end of rant.

 

[DickWanner]

And here's a story for ya.

About 7 months ago, while in NC, I was getting my daughter out of the truck. I hear nails clacking on the concrete behind me. I turn around and there is the biggest "pit bull" I have ever seen. It's in quotes because it could have been one of the dogs most commonly mistaken for Pits, such as a Cane Corso or Presa Canario. He was HUGE, cropped ears and everything.
When I saw him, I stood in the door of the truck, blocking him from my daughter.
I won't lie, I was terrified. Until he licked my feet, sat and wiggled his big a$$. At that time, I felt he meant me no harm. This sounds stupid, but I could see it in his eyes that he meant no harm to us. He didn't charge me, he trotted over to me. So I grabbed my pocket knife just in case, hoisted my daughter onto my shoulders and walked towards the house. He licked my hand along the way.
That dog stayed at my front door whining for a good hour. I called animal control.
Not because I was scared OF him, because I was scared FOR him, that he would be shot for looking like a typical aggressive "Pit".
They showed up about 45 minutes later, and he was still at my door. When he saw the AC officers pull up, he did what I call the happy dog dance, ran over to them and sat at their feet. The lady officer said "oh you're such meanie, aren't ya? Such a terrifying creature", all while he was lapping up the attention he was receiving.
She opened the back door to the truck and he jumped right in. She thanked me for calling and told me there was no doubt in her mind he owuldn't have survived the night if I hadn't called. People in our area are quick to shoot dogs that are at large, because we were outside city limits. And unless there's a witness to say the dog was not acting aggressive when it was shot, there's nothing that can be done legally.
I felt good that he made his way to my house, instead of the animal haters down the road. I could have been that person that didn't bother to see if he was aggressive, but I wasn't. And I'm glad I didn't have ot live with tha ton my conscience. However, had it been a Lab, Poodle, Schnauzer or Collie, I would have reacted the same way. You just can't predict a strange dog's behavior.


Ok, end of rant.

I'm glad to hear that there was a happy ending to the story. Did you ever find out about the owner?

 

[Tara]

I'm glad to hear that there was a happy ending to the story. Did you ever find out about the owner?

I did, actually. About a week later AC called to let me know he was safely reunited with his family. Apparently the kids were distraught over his disappearance because there were several dog fighting rings being busted at the time. And they assmed he had been taken by those people. His name was BooBear or something equally feminine. lol

 

[stinx]

I knew this guy would lose. The elements of self defense were not met. As messed up as this state is our law regarding self defense is pretty simple: You need to be in fear of serious bodilyharm/death and there was no other way except deadly force to prevent this harm/Death from happening to you.

 

[DickWanner]

I did, actually. About a week later AC called to let me know he was safely reunited with his family. Apparently the kids were distraught over his disappearance because there were several dog fighting rings being busted at the time. And they assmed he had been taken by those people. His name was BooBear or something equally feminine. lol

Lol, I have an OCS friend who got a dog and named him Brewer. His GF and Sis insist on calling the dog "Brew-bear"

 

[Tara]

OCS as in Officers Candidate School? Poor dog. lol

 

[DickWanner]

OCS as in Officers Candidate School? Poor dog. lol

Yes, that one. I somehow decided to take the hardest path to attempt to achieve a commission. I always want to beat up ROTC kids when I talk to them on campus

 

[n1oty]

A huge +1............

I forgot to sign my Neg rep so I just wanted to make sure you knew who gave it. If this guy loved his dogs that much he would have kept them in his own damned yard. Even if the dogs weren't being threatening a man's property is just that. In Texas you're allowed to shoot to kill someone for simply trespassing and I fully agree with that. Some of the replies here only show how big the sheeple disease has spread. I love dogs just as much as anyone, but at the same time I realize that a pet owner needs to be FULLY and ABSOLUTELY responsible for his pet's actions. They're the one with the big brains, they need to use it.

And I'm a dog owner. I keep my dog on a leash and OFF of other folk's property. I demand the same in return.

 

[Tara]

Yes, that one. I somehow decided to take the hardest path to attempt to achieve a commission. I always want to beat up ROTC kids when I talk to them on campus

Hahahahaha

And I'm a dog owner. I keep my dog on a leash and OFF of other folk's property. I demand the same in return.

Because that's what a responsible dog owner does. Some people disagree, apparently.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The elements of self defense were not met. As messed up as this state is our law regarding self defense is pretty simple: You need to be in fear of serious bodilyharm/death and there was no other way except deadly force to prevent this harm/Death from happening to you.

Sorry, but you are not fully cognizant as to the import of MGL on dog shootings.

The statute for dog shooting, covered earlier in this thread, provides specific criteria which must be meant in order for ballistic force against a canine to be justified - specifically, the animal must "suddenly assault", or be in the act of worrying, wounding or killing persons, livestock of fowls. There are subtle differences between the criteria specified in Ch140 Sec156 and the requirements for self defense against a two legged aggressor (for example, there would appear to be no obligation to retreat under Ch140 Sec 156)

In this context, worrying follows the webster definition of "to harass by tearing, biting, or snapping especially at the throat", although I did once have a police officer explain that this law allowed me to shoot a dog if I was "worried" he would hurt me (he wasn't clear on the concept of the less than common use of the term "worry" as applied to animals)