MilSurp Grading?

[traveler57]

Okay, I'm looking for comments, suggestions and education from you "experts" here on the forum. I am ready to take the "big step" and order from CMP for the first time.

After reading and rereading all the wording on the grades of rifles on the CMP webpage, I was wondering if someone could translate the grades into English for a new guy. Of course, money is key here, and if I had unlimited funds, I would always just buy the collectors grade of every rifle.

What grades do you guys usually buy? Have you gotten any particular grade of rifle, only to find out you were surprised as to the actual condition? up or down?

For their M1 Garands, Service Grade is $550, while Correct is $900, and Collector is $1400. Then, I'm not sure what/why the Field Grade is $425 and Rack is $395.
So, is the Service Grade the best general value?

And for the 1903, what is the difference in the three versions that they have for sale today?
ITEM #
R030SHS High Serial Numbered Springfield w/ S Stock $450.00
R030SMS Mark 1 Springfield w/ S Stock $450.00
R030REMS Remington w/ S Stock $450.00
-Nickle- Which one did you get? and why?

I guess it comes down to if I have about a grand to "invest" should I get one of each, or just one M1 Garand at the higher grade?

Thanks in advance from a new milsurp guy. Hey, who needs 12 steps?????

 

[USMA-82]

If you can get a "service grade" example of both the Garand and 1903 - GET THEM! They don't make them anymore (at least the all government-issue types), and they're only going to go up in price in the future. Since they both shoot the same caliber round - reasonably priced surplus ammo is also available from the CMP - you can switch off between the two when going to the range.

The "collector grade" would be fine if you plan on just letting it sit in the safe for a few years, never firing it, and look to made a tidy profit some day.

The lesser grades, although cheaper initially, will have greater bore wear, and will need barrel replacements sooner if you do much shooting.

If you want a good shooter in fairly good shape, GET THE SERVICE GRADES NOW IN BOTH RIFLES!

Or, just wait a few years and pay twice what you could today - your choice...

 

[traveler57]

Thanks

Ken,

Thanks for your input. It is what I needed to fall off the edge. I will finish up my ordering package and paperwork tonight and buy both the 1903 and the M1 Garand in Service Grade.

But what is the difference in the three 1903s listed? Or does it really matter that much.

See at the GOAL banquet.

 

[SKS Ray]

Some are also graded by the US original parts on them, these are considered more collectable.
The best deal on Springfield rifles was the 03A3 they had a few months back. Some were so nice they looked un-issued. The one I got had been Greek re-finished but still looks great and shoots like a dream. Probably the slickest bolt action I own.

 

[BigBill]

Its not just garands too it can get more confusing with all the others too.

Conditions as follows;

1. Unissued/New (means brand new/unshot/no dings/perfect finish/bluing)
2. Like New (used very little/a few dings/bluing/wood 100%)
3. Excellent (used has some finish wear/more dings/bluing/wood 99.9%)
4. Very Good (Used has more dings/dents + or -, bluing/wood 98%)
4 1/2. Good/Very Good (is it boderline good or borderline very good?????)
5. Good (well used, a war vet, bluing/wood 97% to 95%)
5 1/2. Good Cracked Stock( Same as Good but has cracked stock)
6. Fair (finish gone, maybe surface rust, bluing 94% to 90%)
7.Poor (More Rust, no finish, bluing gone, bore questionable?)
8. All Ratings May Differ Too!!!!!!!!!

These can overlap and still mean the samething yet there different too. Its up to the dealers choice and rating as what to pick as what. Then we see the NRA's ratings too. By now i'm confused too and you are too. Then it seems like a while back when we had a change in the cuts of meat when they dropped everything one notch we seem to see it with the surplups too even though it was unsaid or not announced publically too. We see a lower grade selling for the higher grade price. Its sad on our part but true its still a crap shoot but if i find a great buy i try to pass it on to others too this way we can eliminate some of the condition rating BS too. When that BBT arrives we never know what we will get?

Lets Talk about the bore ratings too;

1. Thick Rifling
2. Strong Rifling
3. Good Rifling
4. Frosty Bore
5. Cloudy Bore
6. Foggy Bore
7. Very little Rifling but has some life left
8. Slightly Pitted
9. Pitted
10. Pits removed? Olives I had to do that sorry.
11. Sewer Pipe bore
12. Throat wear
13. Counterbored but still accurate

It gets really silly doesn't it and it sounds like a weather report than a bore condition? You be the judge.

How about the condition or type of the WOOD Stock?

1. Fiddleback
2. Tigerstriped
3. Good Wood
4. Cracked
5. Fair
6. Poor

I don't want to bore you here but i have purchased from a very good supplier in the past and i wasn't told about the 3 cracks in the stock when it was advertised or the stock being refinished(poly) too. I don't deal with this supplier down south in middle america anymore.


The bottomline is the internet ties us together as tight as siamese twins and we can exchange information on whats a great buy and whats not. Thus having a great rating and if it is a great buy this is were or hard earned dollars will go for sure.

Confused? I am, its not so easy when we really talk about the different ratings and conditions when we can't hold the rifle in person. Do you send it back? Are we out the shipping if its there mistake? If its there mistake they should pay for it all when it goes back otherwise find a new company to deal with.

 

[USMA-82]

Personally, I'd go with the first choice - high numbered springfield. The Remington may be a little less common, but when I think "1903", I think "Springfield"

If I recall, the Mark 1 was a transistion model between the 1903 and 1903A1, and not really much different.

 

[jacobtowne]

Ken,

Thanks for your input. It is what I needed to fall off the edge. I will finish up my ordering package and paperwork tonight and buy both the 1903 and the M1 Garand in Service Grade.

But what is the difference in the three 1903s listed? Or does it really matter that much.

See at the GOAL banquet.

I'd call CMP. The only M1903 Mk. I that I know of is the modification for the Pedersen device.
JT

 

[Pilgrim]

the MkI has a cutout in the receiver to accept the Pederson Device which turns the rifle into full -or semi- I can't remember which - auto mode. Quite a few MkI's were made in anticipation of this device but it never caught on. It doesn't affect operation in anyway and just makes one more variety for us collectors.

Very few of the devises were mad and survive today. I know a guy that has one in his safe deposti box. They run in the neighborhood of $25k now if you can find them.

 

[jacobtowne]

Semi-auto, 40-round magazine, .30 caliber pistol cartridge which was nothing but a .32 ACP with a slightly longer case. (.32 is really a .30 caliber pistol.)
Many were made, but most of the devices were later destroyed.
JT

 

[traveler57]

Thanks to everyone for all the information and feedback.

I realize that there will still be some "eye of the beholder" issues in the (complex) grading of a firearm. But for a newbie, it is great to have some of things to look for, when trying to understand if the gun is worth $300 or really worth $1000.

And beyond just CMP rifles, I am hoping to learn who the "good" C&R dealers are, and who to stay away from. It is great to use this forum and members experiences, so I don't have to relearn everything the hard way.

We have a Gun Dealer/Shop Catagory for rating local dealers on this forum. Is there one for C&R dealers somewhere? Of course, now that I have joined the MilSurp world, I will start spending time on someo of the C&R specific forums too.

 

[Nickle]

Buy both, the 1903 FIRST, since they will be out of them soon. I'd buy the High Numbered Springfield (that's what I bought). If you want a 2nd one, get a Remington. Mark I's have a cut out for the Pederson Device. 1903's aren't graded by CMP.

As for a Garand, I recommend either Rack Grade or Field Grade. The differences between Rack, Field and Service Grade is barrel condition. Service Grade has the best barrel. All Garands should've been rebuilt as least once, so, you likely won't get matching parts. The Holy Grail for Garand Collectors is a Winchester.

 

[tele_mark]

Thanks to everyone for all the information and feedback.

I realize that there will still be some "eye of the beholder" issues in the (complex) grading of a firearm. But for a newbie, it is great to have some of things to look for, when trying to understand if the gun is worth $300 or really worth $1000.

And beyond just CMP rifles, I am hoping to learn who the "good" C&R dealers are, and who to stay away from. It is great to use this forum and members experiences, so I don't have to relearn everything the hard way.

We have a Gun Dealer/Shop Catagory for rating local dealers on this forum. Is there one for C&R dealers somewhere? Of course, now that I have joined the MilSurp world, I will start spending time on someo of the C&R specific forums too.

I'm not sure rating C&R dealers, at least by Mass. residents, is a good idea, because of the issue of the AG conducting "stings" and scaring the dealers into not doing perfectly legal business with Mass residents with proper C&R FFL's.

 

[traveler57]

Telemark,

Don't worry, I fully agree with you 100%. Never a public list!!! I was just thinking out loud. If anyone would like to PM or email directly with info. That would be useful.

In the mean time, I will be sending out about 30 or so C&R copies and letters this week to the dealers that seem to me to be the better ones. And then I can start getting some of those $80 SKS and $100 K31 deals I see everywhere.

Nickle,

Thanks for the good input. I have decided (with the power of my VISA card) to buy all three now, (the 2 1903's you suggested and one Garand). Hopefully these will keep me busy for a while and out of temptations way for more. At least for the next few weeks.

Now I have to fully search the forum for all the advice on cleaning. The advice in another post recently was already very helpful.

 

[Nickle]

My 1903 wasn't coated in Cosmoline, it was coated with grease. A couple of hours and some Acetone, and it's ready to go.

I've found Kerosene to be good for removing Cosmoline.

I suggest you start looking for a Winchester Garand next. CMP won't have reasonably priced ones again.

 

[BigBill]

I don't have any american made stuff yet but you guys seem to be into the american made stuff more here. Your starting to raise my interest now too.

Whats a Garand worth from the Korean war and from WW2 thats all orginal and dated from these era's? Is $650 each a fair price?

Now how many different garand manufacturers are there?

INTERNATIONAL HARVESTER, WINCHESTER, ROCK ILAND ARMORY, SPRINGFIELD, who else?

Do you collect all the different manufactuers of M1 Garands and the M1 Carbines too?

 

[Nickle]

I've actually got more foreign stuff than American. If you ever want American stuff, the time to buy it is NOW. CMP is out of 03-A3's, almost out of 1903's, and has less than 2 years worth of M1's left. I think they want to be done before the 2008 election, due to what the Dem's will do, IF they get in office.

Most Garands aren't "all original", they may be correct, but most went through rebuild one time or another. This applies much more to WW2 era M1's, than it does to Korea era M1's. Late M1's (post/late Korea) are found original. Prices run over $1000, assuming the gun is in real good condition, and the barrel has minimal wear.

H&R and Beretta made M1's as well. I don't think Rock Island made any, though. All Winchester's are WW2 production. All H&R's and IH's are Korea vintage.

 

[Nickle]

An update at the CMP Forum:

Is the CMP fixin' to run out of Garands soon?

 

[traveler57]

Nickle, Thanks for the interesting link. Wow, I guess my reasoning for buying now, rather than waiting, was well founded. Good thing my order for my three rifles was sent out last week.

 

[Pilgrim]

If you really want an mk1 with the Pederson device, go here:

http://julia.hanovercomputer.com/firearms/mar06/Catalog/daytwoa.htm

 

[BigBill]

I read about two weeks ago there were lend lease M1 Garands like 70,000 of them and 700,000 M1 Carbines that we may see soon and i hope that CMP gets them. I believe these are from Korea.