Massachusetts - Hi cap magazines for riles.

[noelephant]

Hi everyone,

Would anyone happen to know what the MA laws are regarding hi capacity rifle magazines? Are there pre-ban and post-ban magazines like with handguns?

I picked up a 30 round magazine for my Ruger 10/22 at a MA gun shop and am suddenly starting to wonder if there are any legal considerations. If I purchase another 30 round clip does it have to be manufactured before a certain date?

I think I might be confusing handgun and rifle laws.

Thanks for your help!

 

[PistolPete]

You'll prob. get flamed for this topic as many people will tell you to do a search but I'm not one of those people.

The same laws regarding high cap mags goes for pistols and rifles. So if it isn't a preban mag you prob. shouldn't own it. People will tell you to get rid of it and if you're not sure you shouldn't chance it. I personally wouldn't worry about it. The mags aren't date stamped and so I don't see the problem.

Many people here are very paranoid about the high cap mag deal but if you aren't stupid and using the gun for self defense etc. you will be fine.

I'm curious to know if anyone has ever gotten in trouble in this state for having a post ban high cap?

I'm sure I'll get flamed now but I personally wouldn't worry about it esp. since you bought if from a MA dealer. The dealer wouldn't risk getting in trouble for a $3-$5 profit.

 

[noelephant]

Thanks for the info and prompt reply, thats exactly what I needed.

I'm curious now... I'm going to check the numbers on the magazine and research it.

I tried a search but couldn't find anything. For some reason I can never find anything useful with the NES.com search.

 

[FPrice]

I'm curious to know if anyone has ever gotten in trouble in this state for having a post ban high cap?

To the best of my (albeit limited) knowledge, no one has yet been charged under this law. The concern is that it is on the books and could be used if someone so desired.

I'm sure I'll get flamed now but I personally wouldn't worry about it esp. since you bought if from a MA dealer. The dealer wouldn't risk getting in trouble for a $3-$5 profit.

I would not bet on that my friend. Some dealers don't know/don't care/both of the above. I "almost" ended up with a banned magazine because an unscrupulous dealer put his price sticker right on top of the "Restricted" warning on a Glock magazine.

 

[Lxpony]

I have seen brand new AK47 mags for sale at gun shows all over Mass which, although they are not dated, they are clearly made after 9/94.

As long as the mag isnt dated (like MP5 or AR mags) then you are fine.

 

[vellnueve]

I err on the side of caution. Possession of a high capacity magazine made after 9/13/1994 is a felony in Massachusetts and you want to be sure. The odds are that you will never have your magazines inspected to ensure that they are compliant, and if you do you're probably in trouble for something else, but odds also are that you'll never be the victim of a life-threatening violent crime, yet most here with ALP carry anyway. Why make the first bet but not the second?

Also, Lxpony, how do you know they are clearly postban? New condition preban mags can be found in many places.

 

[Lxpony]

I know that are postban because they are Bulgarian plastic waffle mags which were made by Arsenal out of Las Vegas. That factory did exist prior to 1998. The mags were made to go with the milled AK receiver rifles being made in Las Vegas. They are made in Bulgaria and imported

 

[Chuck]

New condition preban mags can be found in many places.

Four Season has new in plastic pre-ban AR-15 mags. It says so right on the receipt -- I filed that right with the FA-10 for the AR itself in the fire-proof documents safe; just in case I'm called on it.

-= chuck

 

[Len-2A Training]

A lot of MA dealers are selling post-ban mags as "new, pre-ban"!

I even had one MA dealer tell me to just go up to NH and buy the new 10/22 mags, "nobody will know"! There have been some design changes for 10/22 mags over the past 10-15 years and thus, although they aren't date stamped (NOT required per MGL), it "MAY" be possible for someone hell bent on furthering their political career as "hard on gun crime" to successfully prosecute (even though it has not been done to date).

I was contacted by a Fed LEO recently who told me that the brand new post-ban hi-cap rifle mags that his Department ordered came wrapped in the same bags, same markings, and same info on the boxes as that which he saw in a very reputable MA Dealer's store (being sold as pre-ban)!! I don't even think that the mag mfr existed pre-1994. Caveat emptor!!!

I am aware that at least two gun distributors are selling new post-ban hi-cap pistol mags as "new, pre-ban" to MA Dealers. My info came from multiple MA Dealers! Caveat emptor!!!

This is why we need to work hard with a goal of killing the hi-cap mag law. Too easy to get jammed up without trying to do the wrong thing.

 

[noelephant]

I didn't realize this was such a thorny topic!

MA is crazier than I thought. :-/ I don't think I'll be picking up any additional hi-cap magazines, just to be on the safe side. After poking around online, it seems to me that the magazine style I have was at least manufactured before the ban. If I find any evidence that it was made post ban I'll destroy it ASAP.

What is the weather in New Hampshire like this time of year? (I absolutly love New Hampshire.... beautiful state.)

 

[matt1956]

I guess the hard part is that if you have a hi cap mag with NO MARKINGS what so ever, not even a manufacture name on them nor any indication as to when they were made. And they were sold to you as "Pre-Ban"

You'd be pretty hard pressed to get a conviction. That obvoiusly would not mean that your chief wouldn't yank your Lic though.

so, I think as LenS said, buyer beware.

 

[drgrant]

You'd be pretty hard pressed to get a conviction. That obvoiusly would not mean that your chief wouldn't yank your Lic though.

I agree with this... the level of resources required to get a slam dunk
on all but the most egregious "illegal magazine" cases would be
incredible. On an unmarked magazine you'd have to do some serious
materials science forensic stuff, eg, GC/MS, etc... and even at that point
you'd probably only get evidence regarded as circumstantial, and it would
be a severe waste of resources of that type of equipment.

One thing to keep in mind... if you get dragged into court on a criminal
charge of any kind, keeping your license is at the end of a long series of
concerns. Chances are you're not going to get dragged in for having
a "bad magazine" but likely for something else; eg, you had to defend yourself
and then you get arrested, say in an anti gun locale like boston, and
now the local DA/ada/prosecutor is an anti gun type and wants to put the
screws to you.... Thing is, at that point, anything could happen. If
you have good counsel it's probably moot, but nobody wants to be
"that guy" that the DA decided to use as their "gun control poster boy"
case. I also doubt the jury would convict soley on a magazine
thing, either.. but who knows. Anything is possible in this state... remember
that the "jury of your peers" might have people in it that voted for Deval
Patrick. This state is going so corrupt that eventually it'll leak into the
juries, too. "Oh no, the person mr so and so defended himself against... he
was turning his life around and... " (I'll stop here, before I start to puke).

FWIW I don't think such a case even exists in MA. I've seen plenty of
cases where they arrested and charged someone for having a gun without
a license, or having a gun without a license plus a magazine and ammo
they weren't supposed to have either, etc... but those were all charges under
the licensing scheme and not under the MA AWB. I would guess that
it's a lot easier to prove those, since the person not having a license to
lawfully possess something is a lot easier to "prove" than how old someone's magazine is or isn't.


-Mike

 

[hoffmang]

In California we have a similar situation. One bright gun owner wrote the CA DOJ for an opinion on the following two questions:

1. Can I purchase replacement magazine bodies for old or worn out large-capacity magazines?

2. Can I purchase replacement springs and followers for worn out large-capacity magazines?

The CA DOJ answered that you could purchase both and in fact could replace both as long as you didn't create new large-capacity magazines. As such its now almost impossible to be convicted even if the magazines have modern date stamps.

I'm not sure who your best equivalent to our DOJ is, but its an avenue worth pursuing.

-Gene

 

[drgrant]

I'm not sure who your best equivalent to our DOJ is, but its an avenue worth pursuing.

The problem is that in MA, with the government here being endlessly
corrupt, there really isn't an agency explicitly tasked with making technical
determinations. (Maybe EOPS is supposed to? ) In any event, the general
feeling is that whenever this question is asked, you either A. get an answer
which really isn't correct, changes, or you get a complete non-answer.

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

EOPS has deferred all legal questions to CHSB.

When you call CHSB, you are most likely to reach Cosmo, who is a CPA (and I doubt that he knows anything about guns). Cosmo tries to be helpful, but on numerous occasions he has given out WRONG (illegal) information.

Caroline is the head of this division and she is an attorney, but according to Keith Langer he had been taking her to the range once or more. My take on it is that Keith (aka Scrivener) was trying to familiarize her with guns, thus I don't believe that she knows anything about guns either.

TTBOMK, CHSB has not ever issued any legal responses in writing, unlike BATFE. Thus, if ever challenged, you have no paper trail of proof that what you did is legal or was based on faulty information provided by a gov't body. You are left in court with "he said, she said" hearsay evidence and it could cost you dearly. [ANY firearm violation in MA is a lifetime disqualifier to ever touching a gun or ammo again!!]

 

[five.five-six]

If I purchase another 30 round clip does it have to be manufactured before a certain date?

I

Thanks for your help!

not to be a prick but,

 

[C-pher]

I was waiting for the mag/clip flame to come out...

It's usually Lynne, but you beat him to it..

And I love that graphic...more so the magazine and the paper clip...that had me on the floor...

 

[boston_007]

EOPS has deferred all legal questions to CHSB.

When you call CHSB, you are most likely to reach Cosmo, who is a CPA (and I doubt that he knows anything about guns). Cosmo tries to be helpful, but on numerous occasions he has given out WRONG (illegal) information.

Caroline is the head of this division and she is an attorney, but according to Keith Langer he had been taking her to the range once or more. My take on it is that Keith (aka Scrivener) was trying to familiarize her with guns, thus I don't believe that she knows anything about guns either.

TTBOMK, CHSB has not ever issued any legal responses in writing, unlike BATFE. Thus, if ever challenged, you have no paper trail of proof that what you did is legal or was based on faulty information provided by a gov't body. You are left in court with "he said, she said" hearsay evidence and it could cost you dearly. [ANY firearm violation in MA is a lifetime disqualifier to ever touching a gun or ammo again!!]

_______________________________________________________________

+1

I suggest you give CHSB a call

I recently spoke with Caroline Sawyer at CHSB. It seems as if the question of repairing a major component, other than the magazine tube, has never been raised.
Her "opinion", and she agreed that it's only her opinion and not the legal final word, was that it could be argued that the originally manufactured magazine has not been replaced by a prohibited part therefore a new production major component part of the magazine "should" be ok. Notice the "should" be ok? The 360+ MA PD’s might have a different opinion. She also said it is important to have both the original receipt of the pistol and the receipt of the replacement part.
Her final opinion (paraphrased): If you are a law abiding LTC-A ALP holder and use a common sense approach to installing a dated part on an otherwise pre-ban magazine it "shouldn't" be an issue unless faced with a worst case scenario situation. After that it's anyone's guess.

It should be noted that my original question was asked to Cosmo and another female CHSB employee; both of whom deferred me to Caroline.

 

[five.five-six]

I was waiting for the mag/clip flame to come out...

It's usually Lynne, but you beat him to it..

And I love that graphic...more so the magazine and the paper clip...that had me on the floor...

it was more of a rib than a flame

 

[Admin]

it was more of a rib than a flame

I always get a chuckle out of it.

 

[matt1956]

not to be a prick but,

lol

You really had me going when I got to the paper clip

 

[five.five-six]

I stole it from calguns..made me laugh too

 

[Len-2A Training]

Boston, you just proved my point!

All you get is "verbal opinions" which are worthless to keep you out of court, and not much good in court (assuming that they even remember talking with you).

BATFE has an entire "Tech Branch" which tests out questions, documents the answers so that you can perhaps avoid court, or at least have "the written word" to use as evidence.

I don't fault the folks at CHSB . . . in the past they were strictly a "data processing center". EOPS has pushed them to be a "legal arm" for interpreting state laws and regulations . . . way beyond their scope of work and way beyond their level of technical competence!

The MSP Firearms division (or whatever they call it) "SHOULD" be in charge of these type questions, and both Q and A should be in writing that you could take to the bank! Hasn't happened and probably never will, as the bureaucrats never want to give a break to the lawful gun owner. [EOPS Legal Dept used to field the legal questions, then a Sec. of Public Safety "reassigned" that task to CHSB a few years ago.]

 

[hoffmang]

Gentlemen,

I'd recommend you push it with CHSB copying MSP. Send them registered mail, ask for a formal legal opinion, and ask to accelerate it. I'm swamped on CA law, but a couple of tools you can use to push on these sorts of things are equivalent state laws to the Freedom Of Information Act at the Federal level. In California, its called the Public Records Act. Send a request for all magazine or firearms related opinions or memos to both agencies as a start.

CA's Attorney General is charged with keeping our 58 DAs in line (though they try to duck it when politically convenient) but you can use that and here we have an Administrative Procedures Act which allows us to force executive departments to either make rules or issue opinions. I suggest you guys start scanning outside the firearms laws to use the bureaucracy in your favor to get clarity and letters that help keep you out of trouble.

I'd start here: http://www.nfoic.org/resources/states/massachusetts/

-Gene

 

[center442]

Gentlemen,

I'd recommend you push it with CHSB copying MSP. Send them registered mail, ask for a formal legal opinion, and ask to accelerate it. I'm swamped on CA law, but a couple of tools you can use to push on these sorts of things are equivalent state laws to the Freedom Of Information Act at the Federal level. In California, its called the Public Records Act. Send a request for all magazine or firearms related opinions or memos to both agencies as a start.

CA's Attorney General is charged with keeping our 58 DAs in line (though they try to duck it when politically convenient) but you can use that and here we have an Administrative Procedures Act which allows us to force executive departments to either make rules or issue opinions. I suggest you guys start scanning outside the firearms laws to use the bureaucracy in your favor to get clarity and letters that help keep you out of trouble.

I'd start here: http://www.nfoic.org/resources/states/massachusetts/

-Gene

hoffmang has some excellent suggestions, but here in the People's Republic of Massachusetts (Kalifornia East, as it's sometimes known) it will be almost impossible to get a bureaucrat to commit to ANYTHING in writing...they might then have to adhere to what they say! In fact our esteemed Legislature has no problem with repeatedly violating our State Constitution, and that document is pretty clear!

Happy New Year!

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