Macdonald negate "sporting purposes"?

[terraformer]

Ok, I can agree to a point. I had to train, take a state test to get my professional license. But now I have to pay every 2 years to renew it for no reason. It should be indefinite unless revoked. Revoked only because of professional misconduct related to the license, not I didn't pay my excise tax or something. Do you have to pay your college every 2 years to keep your degree? Its all about the money and power over you at this point.

Perma renewal, constant taxing, etc are all abuses of licensing for sure, but by itself licensing is not inherently evil.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Perma renewal, constant taxing, etc are all abuses of licensing for sure, but by itself licensing is not inherently evil.

It is when it "licenses" a right and forces one to pay a "tax" or "fee" , (let alone a tax or fee that is far in excess of what it costs to process said license), to exercise that right.

Its also evil with regard to the possession of firearms in the fact that any future purchase of a firearm using that license, automatically links that purchase and possession of said firearm to that license....ergo, the "state"(being federal or state government) now knows who has and where to find or at least look for that firearm. When the nazis forced registration of firearms, they had a black and white list of where to go to collect the guns from those they deemed unsuitable. The gestaspo would start at the end of a street and by the time they had shot or tossed a few people out their windows for mere possession or refusing to give up their guns, the guns were flying out the windows into the street.

Could that happen here? I think yes. Should we even consider allowing laws that might eventually foster such a thing? I think not.

It is also evil when one has to prove their suitability/elegibility to the state to obtain such a license instead of the burden of disqualification of the applicant being placed upon the state.

This is one of the major sources of abuse in this state, along with differing criteria being mandated by different licensing authorities(chiefs of police) in differnet geographical areas.....thereby denying citizens of the same commonwealth "equal justice" and equal treatment under the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany

 

[HTRN]

Perma renewal, constant taxing, etc are all abuses of licensing for sure, but by itself licensing is not inherently evil.

To require persons to obtain a license from a government to exercise a natural or fundamental Right is tyrannical and possibly evil.
Just imagine if you needed to get a license to speak you mind, or have a trial by jury etc, etc.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

To require persons to obtain a license from a government to exercise a natural or fundamental Right is tyrannical and possibly evil.
Just imagine if you needed to get a license to speak you mind, or have a trial by jury etc, etc.

I think tyranny and evil are pretty much interchangable in this instance.

 

[terraformer]

Perma renewal, constant taxing, etc are all abuses of licensing for sure, but by itself licensing is not inherently evil.

The above is a general statement, not one made under the context of hair dressers, airline pilots or gun owners...

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

The above is a general statement, not one made under the context of hair dressers, airline pilots or gun owners...

So, you agree with the rebuttals?

 

[terraformer]

So, you agree with the rebuttals?

Talking. In. Circles.

Is $100 a year (or 5 years) licensing for firearms ownership an abuse of licensing, yes. Is free licensing for firearms ownership to prove the certification of a safety course and to make it easy to prove you are not prohibited an abuse of licensing, no. Will MA or any state with ownership licensing abuse licensing? Yes, in a heart beat. Does AZ, VT and AK have it right? Yes they do.

 

[center442]

Talking. In. Circles.

Is $100 a year (or 5 years) licensing for firearms ownership an abuse of licensing, yes. Is free licensing for firearms ownership to prove the certification of a safety course and to make it easy to prove you are not prohibited an abuse of licensing, no. Will MA or any state with ownership licensing abuse licensing? Yes, in a heart beat. Does AZ, VT and AK have it right? Yes they do.

Well said, Terra. A right that hinges on paying a fee to the government to be exercised isn't a right, it's a permission. A permission can be granted, denied, or unresonably restricted. Isn't that the exact reason that we're in such a sorry state here in MA?

 

[GSG]

posted too soon

 

[GSG]

Like in Item #4 below, the silence on H 2259 indicates to me that MCOPA has scuttled our attempts to make these changes. They always do this "in the back room", so that it's not publicly known or cause any public dissent at their actions.

While I find their behavior offensive, it doesn't bother me very much now to think that H2259 has been scuttled. With McDonald on our side, Mass. gun owners don't need to make the compromises offered up in H2259. As I said above, they just need to get in the ring with the bear, they have the tools to prevail.

True. Each Gov-appointed Sec of Public Safety brings their own legal team and gives marching orders on "how to interpret MGLs and Regs" to fit their political agenda. Currently this results in some grim interpretations . . . with no public knowledge some interpretations now make a crime out of something that was previous policy/interpretation.

Like the "legality" of LTC holder's pistols in their glove compartments in Mass.?

Yes, personal responsibility for breaking the law runs counter to MCOPA's mission statement! They also will do anything not to lose "power" and control . . . i.e. that's why the Byrne Grant Report on LE training was ignored (recommended to create a POST like 48 other states and wrest control from MCOPA of the curriculum for all LE training in the state of MA). It's also why I'm certain that they scuttled H 2259 quietly.

I agree with you that Mass. needs POST standards, the states without them are creating headaches for LE that don't need to be there. If all 50 states had similar enough POST standards then it'd be easier to make it so that state & local LE could fly armed like the Feds can, among other things.

I'd like to think that the discrimination we see today towards minorities is not racially motivated and that it's motivated by politicrats running cities that are out of control and want to "look tough on crime" by limiting legal guns/gun owners instead of going after criminals. I'm hoping that I'm right, but there really is no way to know or get into their pea-brains to confirm their motivations.

I honestly don't think that the gun laws were written by people who have summer trailer estates in Elohim City or anything like that. My point is that the laws are being structured in a way that clearly favor one group of people, whether or not the authors meant to. There's similar issues with standardized tests like the MCAS, where inner city kids don't score as well as kids from rural areas. Chances are the MCAS tests were written by academics who are from smaller towns, and who would write questions that someone like them could answer, using examples that they run into a lot.

Apply that same logic to gun laws; does $100 for an LTC sound like a figure thought up by someone living on $8 per hour? Does a 60 day wait for a license sound like it was deemed a reasonable amount of time to remain unarmed by someone who lives in the shooting galleries found in Dorchester/Springfield/Brockton/etc.? Does CLEO discretion for LTC's sound like it was thought up by someone who's used to appointing CLEO's, or by someone who'd never cross paths with such a person in their everyday life?

I agree with you about sound bites spoken by career politicians to appease hysterical moron voters, I'm just saying that perspective is important here.

Speaking in terms of the trades like esthetics, carpentry, juice, mechanics, etc., the public is better served by people trained by (apprenticed to) pros that have been doing this for a long time, and just possibly by private accreditation organizations. The license from the state does not impart skills or knowledge. Experience and training does.

Hold the offenders liable when/if they screw up. Collecting a fee in advance won't prevent that screwup from happening.

Agreed on both points, although Scriv seems to think that not licensing things = total anarchy.

 

[Lamina]

GSG...

I just wanted to state that even though we've had our differences in the past, it is clear to me that you're one of the "good guys". Glad to have you on our side.

 

[GSG]

GSG...

I just wanted to state that even though we've had our differences in the past, it is clear to me that you're one of the "good guys". Glad to have you on our side.

I just call 'em as I see 'em. Also, as a former inmate in one of the 351 gulags in that state I'm familiar with how difficult it can be there. The system controlling gun ownership in Mass. needs a toilet auger applied to it.

 

[Coyote33]

Can anybody answer the question from post 58?

At this point, I really think we need to consider plan B. Plan B being to get all the other (non-2259) bills referring to gun law changes, and pepper/chemical law changes, released to the floor for a vote. That way, at least we will have some much needed smaller corrections happening while we are waiting for the larger corrections to happen. Some may say that is a waste of time when we should be dedicating our efforts to the larger cause. I think it is being pragmatic based on the time wasters in the legislature we are dealing with. They can only understand the smaller steps. Just chip away at fixing some small stuff first, and repealing the bad things. Then get into clarifications and definitions (table of definitions, anyone?). After that, take what is left, and apply the major reforms to THAT. That way, in the meantime, we all benefit more quickly, and the pea brains on Beacon Hill can comprehend things better. We are missing many opportunities here, and plenty of good law fixes could fall by the wayside because of all eggs in one basket.

This does not even take into account the verdict that went down on Monday!

 

[namedpipes]

Perma renewal, constant taxing, etc are all abuses of licensing for sure, but by itself licensing is not inherently evil.

I suspect you see licensure as a way to ensure that people using the services of those licensees are served well and correctly.

I just don't see why GOVERNMENT needs to be mechanism used to accomplish that.

I don't know if and couldn't care less if my mechanic is "certified" or licensed by the state. I trusted the ASE claim and friends vouchers that he was competent. I trust my direct experiences since to keep going back.

Involving the state in that trust relationship would require two things:

1) The state gets a paycheck.

2) That I trust the state to make a competent decision that a person is qualified.

I can think of any number of people with licenses in their trades and professions that are incompetent, so trusting the states advice is just not happening and I don't think the state needs yet more money to do the things they SHOULD be doing.

And so: the state offered license is useless in my own decision making process.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

I suspect you see licensure as a way to ensure that people using the services of those licensees are served well and correctly.

I just don't see why GOVERNMENT needs to be mechanism used to accomplish that.

I don't know if and couldn't care less if my mechanic is "certified" or licensed by the state. I trusted the ASE claim and friends vouchers that he was competent. I trust my direct experiences since to keep going back.

Involving the state in that trust relationship would require two things:

1) The state gets a paycheck.

2) That I trust the state to make a competent decision that a person is qualified.

I can think of any number of people with licenses in their trades and professions that are incompetent, so trusting the states advice is just not happening and I don't think the state needs yet more money to do the things they SHOULD be doing.

And so: the state offered license is useless in my own decision making process.

Not to mention, threatened denial or revocation for things that have nothing to do with the license....like back child support, tax arrears and I'm sure several others. It can and is used as leverage against people......just like a gun license is ALL the time.

The only thing government is truly competent at is extortion.

 

[terraformer]

Not to mention, threatened denial or revocation for things that have nothing to do with the license....like back child support, tax arrears and I'm sure several others. It can and is used as leverage against people......just like a gun license is ALL the time.

The only thing government is truly competent at is extortion.

And those are the very common abuses. My BIL just got one of his professional licenses renewed and he was forced to sign a form saying that if he got behind on child support (which he doesn't pay) or owed taxes, that they would revoke the license he uses to make a living. To say that makes the least bit of f'n sense is absurd.

 

[GSG]

Can anybody answer the question from post 58?

I had to go back and look to refresh my memory . The way that I understand it, in theory the bill could be revived, but it seems like MCOPA effectively snuffed it out with a quiet back room deal.

Some may say that is a waste of time when we should be dedicating our efforts to the larger cause. I think it is being pragmatic based on the time wasters in the legislature we are dealing with.

I agree with you. The anti's are attacking our rights from every angle, using things I never would have thought of like OSHA regulations and forcing adoptive parents to register their guns with adoption agencies, crazy little small stuff. In the same way we need to push this issue from every angle. I understand that the Mass. gun lobby has limited resources, but individuals can still show their support and write letters, etc.

 

[cekim]

The anti's are attacking our rights from every angle, using things I never would have thought of like OSHA regulations and forcing adoptive parents to register their guns with adoption agencies, crazy little small stuff. In the same way we need to push this issue from every angle. I understand that the Mass. gun lobby has limited resources, but individuals can still show their support and write letters, etc.

We are perhaps at an end of an era begun with the American revolution that fundamentally changed the nature of the relationship between the people and the government. We didn't change it around the world, we only changed it here.

We tried to spread it, but those trying to do so didn't understand what it was they were spreading (and that it could not be given, but rather must be taken - you must earn the people's superiority over government, it cannot be declared or decreed by someone else).

We have been too accepting of incremental shifts back to the old paternal relationship. We've been losing ground on our place as the exception for a long time.

We have just a few threads to pull on to climb back to being the exception of liberty in a world of tyranny (how ever benevolent some of the examples may claim or appear to be).

Whatever the improvements that are to be had to our system via the various changes we have made have long since been exhausted. Instead of making it better we have been making it worse for a long time.

 

[Coyote33]

I had to go back and look to refresh my memory . The way that I understand it, in theory the bill could be revived, but it seems like MCOPA effectively snuffed it out with a quiet back room deal.



I agree with you. The anti's are attacking our rights from every angle, using things I never would have thought of like OSHA regulations and forcing adoptive parents to register their guns with adoption agencies, crazy little small stuff. In the same way we need to push this issue from every angle. I understand that the Mass. gun lobby has limited resources, but individuals can still show their support and write letters, etc.

Maybe George Peterson, or some other sympathetic politician, can "insert the language" from the Katrina bill into some other more current bill which is dealing with declaration of emergency or disaster stuff.