LTC Sporting Restriction Defintion

Sal Romaine

Sal Romaine

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I have an LTC with a sporting restriction. I have no chance of getting this removed until renewal of my license (I already tried).

In addition to Target and Hunting, the Sporting restriction permits you to carry for "outdoor recreational activities such as hiking, camping, cross country skiing, or similar activities"

Does anyone know if Dog walking through the neighborhood counts as an "outdoor recreational activity"?
 
Sal Romaine said:
I have an LTC with a sporting restriction. I have no chance of getting this removed until renewal of my license (I already tried).

In addition to Target and Hunting, the Sporting restriction permits you to carry for "outdoor recreational activities such as hiking, camping, cross country skiing, or similar activities"

Does anyone know if Dog walking through the neighborhood counts as an "outdoor recreational activity"?
Click to expand...

It depends on two people who matter; the cop who pulled you over and is asking why you're carrying and whoever answers the phone when they call your local station to ask the same question.

Get your answer from the horses mouth. Call your licensing officer.
 
SERE said:
It depends on two people who matter; the cop who pulled you over and is asking why you're carrying and whoever answers the phone when they call your local station to ask the same question.

Get your answer from the horses mouth. Call your licensing officer. and get the answer in writing, on PD stationery.
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Added some ......
 
How wouldn't walking the dog be an 'outdoor recreational activity'? How wouldn't taking a stroll through the neighborhood for your personal health not be an 'outdoor recreational activity'? How wouldn't taking a spirited drive in the car not be an 'outdoor recreational activity'? Or fishing, or eating at an outdoor restaurant, or visiting the zoo, or flying a drone, or helping a friend build a shed? It just goes on and on. You could write a list of a million things and then ask the licensing officer to say yay or nay, and if nay explain why it isn't an 'outdoor recreational activity'. If it were me I would have an excel spreadsheet with 1,000,000+ items and ask for an explanation. Let them explain how playing corn hole or frisbee or just walking the park is not a 'outdoor recreational activity'. It's all made up nonsense anyways.
 
The answer is nobody knows the answer. People can interpret "sporting" as a lot of different things. Some people would consider chasing college girls into the woods at Stanley Park a sport....[devil]
 
If you stop playing word games, it is very simple.

If the issuing authority stuck you with a restriction it is because she/he/it/them did not want you carrying in public. Word games contorting the verbiage used to describe that are unlikely to get a reaction of "you know, you are technically correct so I am not going to revoke your license". If the licensing authority did not object to you carrying in public, there would not be a restriction.
 
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sal, being a green member you get the same bennies the rest of us get if you go "away." see below...
greencobra said:
go to the search engine here at nes, look up brothers helping brothers, and familiarize with the terrific benefits we offer our jailed nes brothers and sisters. this is something we, the green members do for each other. you bought into a family my brother.
- $18 added to your commissary account each month your incarcerated. (up to 6 years)
- each month, a cheery nes green member will visit you at your prison. (provided it's not more than 12 miles away from the closest member}
- guaranteed birthday and xmas card (don't celebrate xmas? tell us what you do celebrate...within reason.
- someone to pick you up on your release date. (provided nes still exists)
-on the first anniversary of your release, a shoot somewhere will be named after you. (to be determined later)

keep in touch now!
Click to expand...
 
SERE said:
It depends on two people who matter; the cop who pulled you over and is asking why you're carrying and whoever answers the phone when they call your local station to ask the same question.

Get your answer from the horses mouth. Call your licensing officer.
Click to expand...
I just did this via email (so it would be in writing as others have said). Will respond to the group when I hear back.
 
Wickedcoolname said:
That question would likely be answered differently by different judges. But if you carry concealed and you never have to use your gun, it doesn't really matter.
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MGL Section 131 contains:

"A violation of a restriction imposed by the licensing authority under the provisions of this paragraph shall be cause for suspension or revocation and shall, unless otherwise provided, be punished by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000; provided, however, that the provisions of section 10 of chapter 269 shall not apply to such violation."​

So, first of all, this is a nearly infallible argument the issuing authority can use that the revocation is appropriate when you appeal the non-judicial revocation of the license.

It also means that the felony record, misdafelony record, and criminal charge does not exist as it would to totally unlicensed carry.

Secondly, the chances it will go to trial as slim. They either won't bother "because they got your license" but, if they do, it will almost certainly be negotiated to a level that makes it impractical to go to court, lose, and let the judge pick the fine and judicially impose the revocation of the LTC that has already been revoked.

As a bonus, the revocation will deprive you of "carry" rates the civil offense of "carr on an expired license" as the revocation was not for failure to file change of address.

It all comes back to "word games" only matter for the court part, which is unlikely to ever happen. Chiefs will find them silly, amusing and stupid.

Let's start talking reality rather than wishful thinking. The later lowers the average intelligence of an NES post.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
MGL Section 131 contains:

"A violation of a restriction imposed by the licensing authority under the provisions of this paragraph shall be cause for suspension or revocation and shall, unless otherwise provided, be punished by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000; provided, however, that the provisions of section 10 of chapter 269 shall not apply to such violation."​

So, first of all, this is a nearly infallible argument the issuing authority can use that the revocation is appropriate when you appeal the non-judicial revocation of the license.

It also means that the felony record, misdafelony record, and criminal charge does not exist as it would to totally unlicensed carry.

Secondly, the chances it will go to trial as slim. They either won't bother "because they got your license" but, if they do, it will almost certainly be negotiated to a level that makes it impractical to go to court, lose, and let the judge pick the fine and judicially impose the revocation of the LTC that has already been revoked.

As a bonus, the revocation will deprive you of "carry" rates the civil offense of "carr on an expired license" as the revocation was not for failure to file change of address.

It all comes back to "word games" only matter for the court part, which is unlikely to ever happen. Chiefs will find them silly, amusing and stupid.

Let's start talking reality rather than wishful thinking. The later lowers the average intelligence of an NES post.
Click to expand...
I don’t think its word games asking if going on a walk in the neighborhood counts as an “outdoor recreational activity”.

If they wanted me to only bring it target-shooting and hunting, they would have given me the “target and hunting” restriction.

That said, I did ask for clarification a few hours ago via email. I wouldn’t bet money on them allowing it, but I don’t think its a stretch of an interpretation.

We will see tomorrow.
 
Sal Romaine said:
I don’t think its word games asking if going on a walk in the neighborhood counts as an “outdoor recreational activity”.

If they wanted me to only bring it target-shooting and hunting, they would have given me the “target and hunting” restriction.

That said, I did ask for clarification a few hours ago via email. I wouldn’t bet money on them allowing it, but I don’t think its a stretch of an interpretation.

We will see tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Actually, it is word games. Do you really think the issuing authority meant "Public streets are OK as long as you are not walking to work, but shopping malls are grocery stores are not?".

Claiming a word game is not word game is as much a ritual as the new VP at a big company introducing himself and saying "he does not play politics", even though not playing politics in the corporate world is a form of politics.

Of course, this is just my opinion and yours may differ.

An excellent example (unfortunately) is the USPS regulation banning guns except for lawful purposes. Even the Oracle of Lee (former Chief Ron Glidden, author of the tome on MA gun laws) concluded postal carry it was lawful for LTC holders. A federal court decided that "lawful purposes" encompassed things such as being on postal land while hunting, but did not cover lawful licensed or permitted by law concealed or open carry by non-LEOs in post offices because that was "obviously not the intent of the regulation/law" and it would be rendered "nearly meaningless" in many locations.
 
OP: you never said in your original post…curious how your Town ranks? If Green, did they give you a reason for the restriction?

www.northeastshooters.com

Guide To Gun Rights in your MA Town - 2020 + Edition

This is a replacement for THIS thread which is ancient and somewhat outdated https://www.northeastshooters.com/xen/threads/guide-to-gun-rights-in-your-massachusetts-town.8703/ Things have changed, in 2021 there are very few full on red towns anymore. What we need here is feedback, and I will...
www.northeastshooters.com www.northeastshooters.com
 
Sal Romaine said:
I don’t think its word games asking if going on a walk in the neighborhood counts as an “outdoor recreational activity”.

If they wanted me to only bring it target-shooting and hunting, they would have given me the “target and hunting” restriction.

That said, I did ask for clarification a few hours ago via email. I wouldn’t bet money on them allowing it, but I don’t think its a stretch of an interpretation.

We will see tomorrow.
Click to expand...

"If they wanted me to only bring it target-shooting and hunting, they would have given me the “target and hunting” restriction."

Well now.....from this bold statement you already know the answer to your question. So why are you here asking for an answer?

Anyway.....can't wait for your post to tell us what the pd said. 🙄
 
If you’re a member at a club with 24-7 access, how can they prove that’s not where you going when you were carrying it? The entire concept of these restrictions is to give cops additional authority they’re not entitled to legally.
 
Mtn_Guy said:
OP: you never said in your original post…curious how your Town ranks? If Green, did they give you a reason for the restriction?

www.northeastshooters.com

Guide To Gun Rights in your MA Town - 2020 + Edition

This is a replacement for THIS thread which is ancient and somewhat outdated https://www.northeastshooters.com/xen/threads/guide-to-gun-rights-in-your-massachusetts-town.8703/ Things have changed, in 2021 there are very few full on red towns anymore. What we need here is feedback, and I will...
www.northeastshooters.com www.northeastshooters.com
Click to expand...
Woburn. Wasn't officially color coded on the list, but I would classify them as a red town. They don't give anyone unrestricted for their first time. They told me they usually remove restrictions after renewal.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Actually, it is word games. Do you really think the issuing authority meant "Public streets are OK as long as you are not walking to work, but shopping malls are grocery stores are not?".

Claiming a word game is not word game is as much a ritual as the new VP at a big company introducing himself and saying "he does not play politics", even though not playing politics in the corporate world is a form of politics.

Of course, this is just my opinion and yours may differ.

An excellent example (unfortunately) is the USPS regulation banning guns except for lawful purposes. Even the Oracle of Lee (former Chief Ron Glidden, author of the tome on MA gun laws) concluded postal carry it was lawful for LTC holders. A federal court decided that "lawful purposes" encompassed things such as being on postal land while hunting, but did not cover lawful licensed or permitted by law concealed or open carry by non-LEOs in post offices because that was "obviously not the intent of the regulation/law" and it would be rendered "nearly meaningless" in many locations.
Click to expand...
I could have seen it going either way. But I just got it in writing that it does count as an "outdoor recreational activity".

I do appreciate the input from everyone. I probably wouldn't have asked PD otherwise.
 
assaultknifle said:
If you’re a member at a club with 24-7 access, how can they prove that’s not where you going when you were carrying it? The entire concept of these restrictions is to give cops additional authority they’re not entitled to legally.
Click to expand...
You appear to be under the mistaken assumption they have to prove something to revoke your LTC.

Regrettably, the authority exists in MGL (unless, of course, you subscribe to the theory that laws you consider inconsistent with the 2A are null and void).

I could have seen it going either way. But I just got it in writing that it does count as an "outdoor recreational activity".
Click to expand...
Rarely am I so pleased at being wrong.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
You appear to be under the mistaken assumption they have to prove something to revoke your LTC.

Regrettably, the authority exists in MGL (unless, of course, you subscribe to the theory that laws you consider inconsistent with the 2A are null and void).


Rarely am I so pleased at being wrong.
Click to expand...
All I’m saying is, the restrictions are ambiguous by design to allow the police to charge with something they deem unlawful. They don’t actually have any meaningful purpose or function beyond that.
 

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