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Letter to keep in your safe - No bonded storage
- Thread starter Cmaro21
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cbrxx
NES Member
Interested in the out of state thing too. I know when I was in process with breaking up with my ex many years ago, first thing I did was get them to a storage locker in MA, then out of state at the first chance to a family home.
I thought the storage place was safe. Had controlled access and cameras everywhere. Probabaly safer than home!
Any thought on the local storage place at a minimum? At least if demanded to comply, you could arrange for your FFL to take custody there with police present, rather than them taking?
I thought the storage place was safe. Had controlled access and cameras everywhere. Probabaly safer than home!
Any thought on the local storage place at a minimum? At least if demanded to comply, you could arrange for your FFL to take custody there with police present, rather than them taking?
I think it's interesting that in two pages of posts, nobody has mentioned how ridiculous it is that people in the PRM actually have to plan on what they're going to do when the cops come for their guns. :/
Rockrivr1
NES Member
I think the mentality of most gun owners in this state is now "if" they will come, but "when" they will come.
I think you're better off leaving an Attorneys name with instructions and an FFL. Police may not acquiesce to the request if their procedure is to store at Bonded Warehouse. They should listen, but I've personally seen situations where they do not.
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Rockrivr1
NES Member
So what if you take it one step further. I've been contemplating setting up a online camera that will be pointed at my gun safe. If you have this note on your safe and in a big font you state your point and say they are being video recorded, point out where the camera is on the note and then catch them as they look directly at the camera you basically have them if they ignore your request. I'm sure there's a way this would backfire on you, but it would help support your case. No?
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For all practical purposes, there is nothing that you can do to penalize a PD that turns guns over to a warehouse rather than your designated dealer. Cure tricks like cameras recording the notice will do nothing unless, perhaps, you are prepared to front $5k to $10k to make it into a federal property rights case.
The practical approach is to already know the dealer you will call (even better if the dealer keeps a file of notarized release letters for his/her customers), and to peacefully comply with the court order so the police don't have any particular reason to be pissed off at you .... and then have your dealer to the station with the letter ASAP.
The practical approach is to already know the dealer you will call (even better if the dealer keeps a file of notarized release letters for his/her customers), and to peacefully comply with the court order so the police don't have any particular reason to be pissed off at you .... and then have your dealer to the station with the letter ASAP.
Simple solution.. have a decoy safe with some sacrificial stuff in it. Doesn't SOLVE the problem, but it might mitigate it.
It is also a pretty sad day when we have to legitimately sit here and figure out how we must defend ourselves from a obviously corrupt system that is openly preventing us from fixing it.
It is also a pretty sad day when we have to legitimately sit here and figure out how we must defend ourselves from a obviously corrupt system that is openly preventing us from fixing it.
This is a good idea, but the age old question is, "will it do anything?" What happens if the PD simply ignores it? Is there any way to persue a legal remedy against them after the fact? (eg, to hold them liable for bonded warehouse fees, plus the cost of any counsel retained, etc. )
-Mike
The real question is whether such a letter would be legally binding, what consequences would be for the police if they failed to comply with your request while executing a protection order, what their intentions are, etc.
Suppose your letter references your deadbeat best friend who has an FFL but never answers his phone(I know, that never happens with ffl's, right?). So the police call him at 9 PM while at your house, get no answer, then call the warehouse because they do answer? Are best efforts fulfilled?
I'm not on their side, but if your plan can't be reasonably complied with, I doubt you'd have standing.
The PD will do whatever they want to do regardless of any letters, videos, etc. They may also confiscate the HDD/obscure the camera. Having worked for 4 chiefs and talked with others, they don't take orders from other than their direct boss very well (understatement).
Yes, they may rummage thru all your stuff. Basically you have no legal recourse that will work in court or elsewhere.
MGL C. 209A is the MA version of the Fed Law "Lautenberg Act", Google it to be informed. It REQUIRES confiscation in all 57 (thank you Obama) states and US Territories. A MA PD will call the location (outside MA) where they are stored and have the PD there confiscate everything there. It's not optional. Failure to hand everything over IMMEDIATELY (or tell them where remote stuff is located) is a separate FELONY under MGL C. 269 S. 10 and will stand alone even if the 209A is dismissed.
And here's proof-positive of what I stated from an attorney!
Letters might work, but only if the PD cooperates (many won't) and doesn't IMMEDIATELY hand everything over to the bonded warehouse. This is why we MUST support www.comm2a.org and donate regularly and liberally. The Jarvis v. Village Vault case must overturn the bonded warehouses or result in reasonable regulation to kill off this cash cow for them and screw job for us!
You have no effective legal recourse in a MA court if they don't do as you request. Only maybe in a Fed court, if the case is one Comm2A might take and win, but that is a long haul and by then the guns are long gone anyway.
If the PD is there to confiscate, and it's all locked up in a safe, how do they get it out? Are they allowed to brake your safe to get your stuff?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk... Please excuse the brevity and auto corrected wrong words
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk... Please excuse the brevity and auto corrected wrong words
TOM1960
Banned
So, you get yourself killed by the responding SWAT team. Real hero, yes? Why not just keep the valuable guns, such as family heirlooms, collectibles, etc. with friends or relatives out of state or in an out-of-state underground burial cache? Keep a couple of inexpensive guns for hunting, home defense, target shooting, etc. One centerfire rifle, one rimfire rifle and one pump shotgun should do the job nicely. If the cops come to confiscate, you will not be out a whole lot of money or end up losing irreplaceable items. Use you head in these matters, not your emotions. If you plan to stand and fight, you will be surrounded and killed. Remember the Branch Davidians at Waco, the Weaver family at Ruby Ridge and the SLA in Los Angeles?
TOM1960
Banned
They will bring in a locksmith to open it and then they will confiscate everything in it. Worse yet, they will note your lack of cooperation for future reference when you go to renew your LTC. Guess what? You are now "unsuitable", even if you win your case! Your LTC will be gone forever.
seanc
NES Member
Well YA... There was no cash and there were no valuables in that safe. Just the firearms the PD picked up.
Can Not be recorded during "an ongoing investigation" and all that..
I would think if you had this problem, it would not go down in the middle of the night or a safe cracking team would be sneaking into your house to take everything. You would most likely know what and when it is going to happen so you could arrange for your prearranged pickerupper to get the stuff from the PD once they are ready to turn it over. Just my supposings.
More to the point, how would they know what to confiscate? Sure, when the safe's open, there's that stuff. But what about other safes, either on-site or off-site? Do they "go to the sporting goods store. From the files obtain forms 4473?" Do they say, "So, is that all?" and you say "Sure. That's all, I think. There are so many..?" Do you sign an affidavit? How does that work?
In MA with a douchey PD they will try to grill you with the FA-10 printout, even though everyone knows that isn't accurate. Then it turns into a game of chicken with the police making a bunch of empty threats about charging you with various crimes that may or may not apply to the case at hand. (Remember kids, it's not illegal for the police to lie to you if they want to. )
Non-douchey PDs may be a lot simpler. The cop might just show up to serve the order and then ask to collect your firearms, ammo, and LTC, and then you provide whatever you provide and they just more or less put you on notice that it's illegal for you to possess anything, so if you have anything else, you should cough it up." My guess is that this is what happens in places like NH. Of course I suppose its possible of the RO applicant starts telling the police things like "He has guns hidden all over the house, even if he just turns in some of the ones he has he still has more, blah blah blah" then they might go full retard on someone. DV ROs are too much of a black hole to know exactly what happens when someone gets served.
-Mike
I would expect them to search the house pretty thoroughly and not just take anyone's word for what is there or not.
Any suspicion of holding out and they will charge you with the C. 269 S. 10 felony and let the DA and courts deal with it. At that point they will come in with a search warrant and if they feel stuff is hidden in the walls, they will smash them too to find them. Same as with drug dealers.
We had a small-time drug dealer (dealing out of a roach-coach) that the PD went in with a search warrant, smashed walls, etc. They found $13K hidden in the walls. When all was said and done, the house was sold for demolition and rebuilding.
Any suspicion of holding out and they will charge you with the C. 269 S. 10 felony and let the DA and courts deal with it. At that point they will come in with a search warrant and if they feel stuff is hidden in the walls, they will smash them too to find them. Same as with drug dealers.
We had a small-time drug dealer (dealing out of a roach-coach) that the PD went in with a search warrant, smashed walls, etc. They found $13K hidden in the walls. When all was said and done, the house was sold for demolition and rebuilding.
TOM1960
Banned
Well, Len, from someone who was at the receiving end of this very special type of happy horsemanure, please let me share some rather unpleasant memories. Ex wanted boyfriend in her life but had no proof that she was abused because I treated her and her daughter (from another relationship) like gold and the sperm-doner did not support his own daughter in any way despite court orders! Well, I guess I wasn't good enough. She got a boyfriend, got a 209A, the whole nine yards and then took off. I buried my two guns (rifle and shotgun) on public land in NH, knowing what was coming. Sure enough, PD showed up with 209A and demanded that I surrender all of the guns that she claimed that I had. Well, both firearms were purchased out of state and I "forgot" to file FA-10s (which I knew, correctly as it turns out, would be used against me one day!). I told the cops that she was a crazy liar who ran off with a boyfriend, that I had nothing further to say and here is my attorney's business card. 209A stayed in effect for one year. Divorce done. Move to new home done. Firearms excavated from underground cache (no rust, no problems at all!). And I moved on with my life. Worked for me.
Sorry for this long post, but I have been through this twice. While it sucks to put this out in this forum, I can at least say how it went down in my cases. Maybe this will help prepare others. And, yes, I am happily divorced now! Both times were unexpected, though admittedly much less so the second time.
I knew zero about the law the first time, back in '99. The ro was from a different town than my residence, as I was in the process of moving. The responding officers from the new town were actually cool and tried to put me at ease and explained their policy. Because they were building a new station, they had no storage and asked the other town to pick up. The officer from that town (Weymouth, what a surprise:/) got in my face and was a total douche from the get go, to the point that the Lt. from Rockland told him to back off. I only had an FID and long guns at the time. They took everything, including pellet guns. The ro expired in three days (or whatever the timeframe is) and the town would NOT return my FID or my guns. Luckily I was able to get it all back two years later. Weymouth has a huge station and apparently didn't use a bonded warehouse. That may have changed since.
When I bought a house in Wareham in 2001, I talked to the licensing officer. I explained the whole situation, and she was awesome and had me fill out the ltc app. I got LTC-A unrestricted in 30 days and went back to Weymouth to collect my stuff. The officer at the desk was a d*** just like I have come to expect from that town, but I got all my stuff, along with a nice gouge in my Churchill O/U. He wouldn't even allow me to case anything, but said 'You have a license to carry, you just better hurry and get out of here.'
I saw where things were heading, and let the house in Wareham go and we moved to a rental in Marion. The second ro was in '09 and although I was getting ready, my ex made the first move. I stopped at the house to get some things and she called the police while I was in the bathroom. They showed up while I was taking care of business and I was told to come out with my hands visible, so I grabbed a roll of tp in each hand, lol. The responding officers, while not total d****, had no idea what the law was. They also took everything from the safe, including pellet guns and a blackpowder rifle, yet they left my father's bayonet from Korea. I realize they should have left that anyway, but they did take my 2" pocketknife. When I questioned why the pellet guns and blackpowder, they said they had to take ALL guns. I said those weren't guns under MA law and was told too bad. They also weren't sure if it was legal for me to have a loaded gun in my safe. And they let me take the guns out and clear them. I made them document everything on a receipt before they left with them.
At the station the next day I was able to get my pocketknife. I asked about a warehouse and they said they store them for 1 year before they contact a warehouse. The temp ro was extended for six months since divorce was filed. Again I checked and the police said one year at the pd. The day the ro expired I went to the courthouse to make sure it was vacated. I went to the pd that afternoon and got my LTC and made an appointment for the following day to get all my guns.
Neither time did ANY of the responding officers ask if I had any more guns OR any ammo. When I was accompanied my Marion pd on a couple of occasions to get belongings, one officer stayed on the back deck with my ex. The other stayed by the front door while I was in the cellar. I was shaking my head as I had to move three hunting bows and totes filled with ammo to get to some of my tools.
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I knew zero about the law the first time, back in '99. The ro was from a different town than my residence, as I was in the process of moving. The responding officers from the new town were actually cool and tried to put me at ease and explained their policy. Because they were building a new station, they had no storage and asked the other town to pick up. The officer from that town (Weymouth, what a surprise:/) got in my face and was a total douche from the get go, to the point that the Lt. from Rockland told him to back off. I only had an FID and long guns at the time. They took everything, including pellet guns. The ro expired in three days (or whatever the timeframe is) and the town would NOT return my FID or my guns. Luckily I was able to get it all back two years later. Weymouth has a huge station and apparently didn't use a bonded warehouse. That may have changed since.
When I bought a house in Wareham in 2001, I talked to the licensing officer. I explained the whole situation, and she was awesome and had me fill out the ltc app. I got LTC-A unrestricted in 30 days and went back to Weymouth to collect my stuff. The officer at the desk was a d*** just like I have come to expect from that town, but I got all my stuff, along with a nice gouge in my Churchill O/U. He wouldn't even allow me to case anything, but said 'You have a license to carry, you just better hurry and get out of here.'
I saw where things were heading, and let the house in Wareham go and we moved to a rental in Marion. The second ro was in '09 and although I was getting ready, my ex made the first move. I stopped at the house to get some things and she called the police while I was in the bathroom. They showed up while I was taking care of business and I was told to come out with my hands visible, so I grabbed a roll of tp in each hand, lol. The responding officers, while not total d****, had no idea what the law was. They also took everything from the safe, including pellet guns and a blackpowder rifle, yet they left my father's bayonet from Korea. I realize they should have left that anyway, but they did take my 2" pocketknife. When I questioned why the pellet guns and blackpowder, they said they had to take ALL guns. I said those weren't guns under MA law and was told too bad. They also weren't sure if it was legal for me to have a loaded gun in my safe. And they let me take the guns out and clear them. I made them document everything on a receipt before they left with them.
At the station the next day I was able to get my pocketknife. I asked about a warehouse and they said they store them for 1 year before they contact a warehouse. The temp ro was extended for six months since divorce was filed. Again I checked and the police said one year at the pd. The day the ro expired I went to the courthouse to make sure it was vacated. I went to the pd that afternoon and got my LTC and made an appointment for the following day to get all my guns.
Neither time did ANY of the responding officers ask if I had any more guns OR any ammo. When I was accompanied my Marion pd on a couple of occasions to get belongings, one officer stayed on the back deck with my ex. The other stayed by the front door while I was in the cellar. I was shaking my head as I had to move three hunting bows and totes filled with ammo to get to some of my tools.
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The Marion police did give me the option of having a licensed individual get them, with the warning that I was prohibited access. At the time, I didn't have any close friends with the necessary license or storage ability.
Right now, the storage ability and transport would be a big deal. With all my cases and locks, it would still take at least three trips for me to move everything. My last two moves were made with everything wrapped in towels and packed into the safe for transport. It was an all day affair to unbolt the safe, pack and transport and resecure the safe at my new residence.
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Right now, the storage ability and transport would be a big deal. With all my cases and locks, it would still take at least three trips for me to move everything. My last two moves were made with everything wrapped in towels and packed into the safe for transport. It was an all day affair to unbolt the safe, pack and transport and resecure the safe at my new residence.
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Someone's name has to be on the FA-10, so I doubt it but this is NOT an area of expertise for me.
It might work for the Feds (4473), unsure but MA is a different kettle of fish!
chris_1001
NES Member
Wonder if the trust could be the name? Just thinking out loud.
Agree, reading all this above has my BP up.
