IBM M1 Carbine - is this worth the effort?

[dwarven1]

I want an IBM M1 Carbine... but there's only a thousand at CMP, and I was worried that I might not get one, as it looks like every armed geek in the country wants one. So when a dealer advertised some, I ordered one, figuring I'd beat the rush.

Well...

The first one came in with the sights staked in, way over to the right. Absolutely no room for windage whatsoever. I wasn't even sure I'd be able to sight it in properly, so I shipped it back and requested that they send me one that didn't have the sights staked. Just got the second one, and the sights - AGAIN!! - are staked in. But there's some room for adjustment, it looks like, unlike the first one.

Oh, and the paperwork somehow got written up as "sights are not aligned properly" and a handwritten note tells me that "we don't have gunsmith's on premises; all I can do is verify that sights are on the gun". (his apostrophe, not mine). Not what I'd asked...

HOWEVER... the action is loose in the stock, and the liner is loose from handguard.

Should I ship it back, AGAIN, and try for a third time to get a gun that doesn't have the sights staked in so that they can't possibly ever get adjusted again (and get a carbine with a properly fitting stock) or should I just give up, keep it and try to build up the stock, re-rivet the liner to the handguard (or maybe just buy a whole new stock - looks like they're only about $50 online or on eBay).

I wouldn't be so annoyed if the sights were at least staked in somewhere near centered...

With shipping, I'm into this for about $620. I'm leaning towards shipping it back and trying to get lucky with the CMP.

Hmm... just saw this on the CMP's website:

All the carbines have late features - such as adjustable sights (heavily staked) with bayonet lug bands and rotary safeties.

And yet... they've been taking orders for Saginaw and National Postal Meter since April and they're not listed as being sold out. Now I'm leaning more towards sending this one back and trying for a CMP one. What do you guys think?

Oh, I should add - the vendor WILL refund the payment and the return shipping. Also, this is my first milsurp that I'm ordering sight unseen... so I really have no idea what to expect. Advice gladly listened to!!!

 

[vellnueve]

A little play in the stock is normal, but not a huge amount. I wish I could see it to take a closer look (I own five carbines, with another coming, plus two receivers). I assume this is from the batch that came in from South America.

Trying for an IBM from CMP is going to be tough as they will sell those out quickly, those being the hot item among the last batch of carbines. A new stock set is also an option.

What kind of shape is it in mechanically? Pictures?

 

[dwarven1]

It came from xxxxx originally; they sold it to the dealer I won't name. Seems OK mechanically - action cycles, trigger pull is a little heavy, but I expect that's from all the cosmoline (that I'm transferring to my keyboard as I type). Strange, though... the handguard may not even be the right one; it seems to be very high, almost blocking the front sight. Finish seems pretty good.

 

[vellnueve]

Well, clean it up a bit first and see how it looks. How much play is there between the stock and the barreled action? many times this can be fixed by adjusting the recoil plate screw. You should screw it in so that when the action is in the slot on the recoil plate (but without the handguard or band on the front, the barrel should be floating about 1/8 to 1/4 inches above the barrel channel. Then, when you put the handguard and band on, it'll be much more secure.

 

[dwarven1]

The recoil plate is as tight as it will go, but the play is horizontal - the action moves from side to side in the stock.

 

[vellnueve]

Well, I'd say it really depends on the condition of the metal, finish, parts etc. Have you disassembled it yet?

Things to do:

Check the manufacturers markings on every part, from the barrel to the safety to the bolt, slide. Check what model bolt you have, which trigger housing and which slide you have.

Right now it just sounds like you might just need a new stock, but if the metal is in great shape I'd hold onto it. Stocks are available at a variety of places, CTD, What a Country, Fulton, etc. Stay away from Riverbank Armory, they're excessively overpriced.

Also, check the muzzle wear with a round of .30 M2 ball just to make sure it isn't excessively worn. Headspace, too.

The CMP rifles are nice too, but you have to remember that they're not all original. All USGI metal, but most of the stocks appear to be Italian (I got lucky on the two complete CMP rifles I've gotten so far, both had USGI walnut). I've gotten two (soon to be 3) rack grades from them and they've all been in nice shape, although certainly not excellent/minty.

Bottom line, I'd say, is that if you're happy with the metal, I'd keep it. Wait times for CMP rifles can be a while (my current one has been over a month) and especially with IBMs you won't be assured of getting one. A lot of those CMP whores will order the max number at a time.

If you do keep it, bring it to the July 4th shoot.

 

[Vintovka]

The first one came in with the sights staked in, way over to the right. Absolutely no room for windage whatsoever. I wasn't even sure I'd be able to sight it in properly, so I shipped it back and requested that they send me one that didn't have the sights staked. Just got the second one, and the sights - AGAIN!! - are staked in. But there's some room for adjustment, it looks like, unlike the first one.

From what I've read, the staked rear sight is very common among the reimports. Most have been rebuilt at one point or another, and the rear sight may not be original, in which case replacing it probably won't hurt your investment. Depending on how it was staked (how many stakes & how deep), you should be able to tap it out, but be careful - I've read of people actually cracking the dovetail on the receiver. There's a good post on the CMP forum about rear sight replacement. In his case, the sight frame itself was bent, and a replacement sight fixed things up. Keep in mind that the sight is adjusted way to one side for a reason, and if the sight itself isn't damaged, it's likely the barrel is out of alignment with the frame. In that case, if you really want to straighten out your rear sight, you'll likely need to press out and reinstall the barrel as well.

HOWEVER... the action is loose in the stock, and the liner is loose from handguard.

I don't know about the batch yours came from, but from what I've read, most of the CMP stocks are of foreign manufacture (limiting their collectibility). It could be that this batch all were rebuilt at some point with foreign stocks with poor fit. If this is a foreign stock, replacing it will only improve the value (as a shooter, not a collectible).

Oh, I should add - the vendor WILL refund the payment and the return shipping. Also, this is my first milsurp that I'm ordering sight unseen... so I really have no idea what to expect.

Dealer X is a very customer-service oriented outfit. I've heard from several people who have shipped back items to them for replacement, and been satisfied with the results (that's been my experience as well). Given your luck thus far, I'd suspect that what you've seen is indicative of the overall state of their supply - especially if you'd ordered this as a "hand-pick" (I don't recall if that was an option for the carbines).

Personally, based on what I've heard of this batch of Carbines (and their current supply of Garands as well), I'll be taking my chances with the CMP: getting in line for an IBM, and failing that, whatever rack grade may be left.

 

[Vintovka]

Wait times for CMP rifles can be a while (my current one has been over a month) and especially with IBMs you won't be assured of getting one. A lot of those CMP whores will order the max number at a time.

Fortunately, the CMP has a "one manufacturer per customer per year" limit on the carbines.

Also, it's worth noting that the CMP has a shipment of 12,000 Greek carbines going up sometime soon, so this won't be anyone's last chance to get one.

 

[dwarven1]

Also, it's worth noting that the CMP has a shipment of 12,000 Greek carbines going up sometime soon, so this won't be anyone's last chance to get one.

REALLY? Where did you hear that? Any timeline get mentioned?

 

[Vintovka]

It was posted in the Garand Collector's Association journal earlier this fall. I'm not a member and didn't read the article, but it's been quoted on the CMP forums - here's a post with some details.

As for when they'll be released, I don't think that's known yet (or at least I haven't found a date). I'd guess that CMP will issue a formal announcement in their email newsletter sometime after the July rush.

Edit: Here are a selection of official "hints" about upcoming sales from the "Ask Orest" forum - looks like they'll be going on sale next year

 

[dwarven1]

Keep in mind that the sight is adjusted way to one side for a reason, and if the sight itself isn't damaged, it's likely the barrel is out of alignment with the frame.

When the sight frame is all the way to the right, and the peep is adjusted all the way to the left AS IT CAME FROM THE DISTRIBUTOR, I start to be suspicious. A boresighter confirmed my guess, too.

I don't know about the batch yours came from, but from what I've read, most of the CMP stocks are of foreign manufacture (limiting their collectibility). It could be that this batch all were rebuilt at some point with foreign stocks with poor fit. If this is a foreign stock, replacing it will only improve the value (as a shooter, not a collectible).

Which is all I really want it for - I'm not like Ray with 20 examples of one rifle in 20 different flavors. I want a carbine to SHOOT... and if I'm getting a milsurp one, I want an IBM just for the coolness factor (computer and rifle form the same company). But I don't feel the need for one of each manufacturer, for example... and it's got to be a shooter. I don't have enough room in the safe for queens.

Given your luck thus far, I'd suspect that what you've seen is indicative of the overall state of their supply - especially if you'd ordered this as a "hand-pick" (I don't recall if that was an option for the carbines).

Personally, based on what I've heard of this batch of Carbines (and their current supply of Garands as well), I'll be taking my chances with the CMP: getting in line for an IBM, and failing that, whatever rack grade may be left.

I'm starting to lean that way... I don't mind cleaning up the rifle, but with this one I'd need a stock and handguard for starters... and who knows what else.

 

[Pilgrim]

Ross, I don't believe that you'll find any carbine that has the adjustable sights that are not staked....to one degree or another. That's really what holds the sight in. If I remember correctly, only the very latest made of the carbines had adj sights installed new, all the rest had the flip sights removed and the adj installed and staked at redo time, and most were redone.

My early Winchester has a staked adj site and I want to put it back to a flipper but don't dare as I'm afraid I might break the dovetail and even if I can get it of and the new one on, it'll look lousy with the big staking mark.

If I were you, I'd keep it and get a new stock (I had a nice one but recently sold it- didn't know you need one).

If you've got an IBM, consider yourself lucky. Even if you need to spend $100 on a stock, you've still got a rare gun at a fair price.

Have you determined the age by way of the serial number to determine what stock you need (assuming you want an IBM stock) ? If not, PM me the # and I'll look it up for you.

 

[vellnueve]

Fortunately, the CMP has a "one manufacturer per customer per year" limit on the carbines.

Also, it's worth noting that the CMP has a shipment of 12,000 Greek carbines going up sometime soon, so this won't be anyone's last chance to get one.

Not entirely correct.

CMP has a "one manufacturer per grade per customer per year" limit. Thus, with three manufacturers released on a given day, someone can walk out or mail order six of them. Bring your spouse or kid along, and you can get even more.

As for the Greeks, they're already in country, I believe, but they're not selling them til 2009. Included among them are 800 paratroopers.

Ross, if you look in the right places, you should be able to get a USGI stock for $30 and a handguard for no more than $10. If you don't care about originality, you can even get one new from Kahr.

 

[calsdad]

While the quality within a certain grade can vary somewhat with the CMP rifles - you can be pretty sure that what you get will be pretty good if you order a Service Grade rifle. So far I have gotten a service grade Winchester, National Postal Meter, Saginaw SG, Saginaw, and I wanted a Rockola - but missed out on that one.

I also got a rack grade Inland and a rack grade Winchester.

The service grade Winchester was in excellent shape - I looked the rifle all over and it was like new - I don't think the barrel had even been shot before. All the parkerizing was in excellent shape - and it was only the stock that showed some wear. The other service grade ones were also in very good condition - just quite as good as the Winchester.

After getting a number of rifles from CMP (including some Garands) - I would have to give them extremely high marks for sending out rifles that are consistent with the way they are graded.

If you really want an IBM from CMP - I would try and go for it. The worst that can happen is you lose out and then you can cancel the order. Send your order in so that it gets there the very morning that they start accepting orders - and you will probably stand a pretty good chance of getting one.

I probably shouldn't tell you this because I want to try for an IBM too - and I just lessened my chances

 

[vellnueve]

You guys order your IBMs, I'm getting my Standard products. My IBM is a refinished import, but it's still damn nice, so I'm concentrating on finishing off the list of manufacturers. After the SP, I'll need an Inland, Winchester, NPM, and Irwin Pederson (the last one is the same as S'G', really, so I should be set there.