556USER
NES Member
That's when a little hand comes out of the shotgun and guides it in for you ;-)
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I was today years old when...
- Thread starter SIGNES
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I was today years old when I learned that Sig sights assume a 'Combat Site Picture' (the front blade is supposed to cover your POI (Point of Impact) per diagram below) and factory 'zero''d' for 10 yards.
P.S. it doesn't literally mean you had to have just learned, it can be anything at one point unknown to you that, when you learned it was useful and maybe unexpected enough in improving your shooting, maintenance whatever that you think somebody else not focused on the same aspects of the shooting sports might not know, and benefit from, or be entertained by.
P.S. it doesn't literally mean you had to have just learned, it can be anything at one point unknown to you that, when you learned it was useful and maybe unexpected enough in improving your shooting, maintenance whatever that you think somebody else not focused on the same aspects of the shooting sports might not know, and benefit from, or be entertained by.
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I never really thought it out that far I just aim with my front sight only…
And as far as sig goes.. out of the box, aiming with a combat site picture.. the bullet literally could go anywhere.. ti haven’t used it in awhile so I don’t know where it is but I have the Sigg soght pusher. It doesn’t work on all the sig guns properly .. when I used to buy a new sig I just adjusted it so it was the same as all of mine so I don’t have to figure it out each time I take out a different sig..
It’s a really expensive tool doesn’t work much better than a universal hammer and punch
I'll try some. I always liked these guys: CHL Targets and many can be had on Amazon too for similar prices to direct if you just wanna toss an extra goody in the cart of boring crap you have to buy. I also like these: splatter target stickers but what maker is cheapest/best seems to vary depending on which impossible to pronounce Chinese vendor you happen to stumble on. Another NES denizen had a specific recommendation in this category but I lost the link.My favorite source for paper targets. They make them in both hi-viz orange and green (for use with red dots).
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EZ2C Paper Targets are designed so you easily see the location of your bullet penetration. EZ2C Paper Targets are High visibility paper targets that improves your sighting in and everyday target shooting experience.www.ez2ctargets.com
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It’s hit or miss.. several times when I started buying might have to send them back. Then I was on a lucky streak for at least a dozen and then I started having that problem again as the year is come and go and owners and management change Quality Control can really very..
I mean, I own enough of them that getting a duds bound to happen.
I was upset with Smith and Wesson because I bought my revolver because I figured it would be reliable. I was up at the NES shoot I think it was like the 60th round I have ever put through the thing the goddamn cylinder release fell off. We found the piece but we couldn’t find the screw obviously. Smith and Wesson was trying to charge me for the screw and the shipping on it..
I lost my shit.
Not me specifically, just things ive seen.....
Not nearly as bad as S&W though. That's like "car crashing through a barricade on top of parking garage while being driven by a 98 yr old at full throttle geriatric pedal stomping goodness "level of bad....
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Adulting ....i want to donkey kick every person in the face who says adulting
This is a runner up tho
See, when I hear them say it (when they're not being mocking and ironic) I just grin knowing they have no idea what it actually means and the world's gonna do the donkey-kicking while I
![[popcorn]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/043.gif "Popcorn [popcorn]")
My favorites are the ones who still think a job is a 'relationship with their employer who cares about their journey' and not pure, simple, commerce.
Not me specifically, just things ive seen.....
Not nearly as bad as S&W though. That's like "car crashing through a barricade on top of parking garage while being driven by a 98 yr old at full throttle geriatric pedal stomping goodness "level of bad....
The thing is, we see/hear about the bad stuff at a much higher rate than the 'yep, works, it's fine" because 'yep, works' is boring...
Or we hear from the 'they can do no wrong' internet fanboys who, with good reason, annoy us.
I like my Sigs but I have no illusions they're flawless and, while I make the standard jokes about Glocks, really, the only reason I don't own any is 'not my taste'. (And I keep ending up modding my 320's to remove the plastic for the same reasons Glocks aren't my taste even when I have idiot moments and think "Oh, Wilson Combat or Tungsten, that'll be good..." and I end up unsatisfied with another plastic grip that gets tossed into the 'well that holster ended up sucking' pile I think we almost all have.)
In fact....
I was today years old when I learned, to find a holster you can really live with, buy four you end up hating.
![[laugh2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/014.gif "Laugh at above [laugh2]")
NHKevin
NES Member
Yup. That's why you say 'my first year' or 'my second year' instead of zero or one year old.
Buck F
NES Member
“So don’t I” I had a gf say that once, I knew right then the relationship was over.
I think you’re closer to 9 months old on the day you’re born unless somehow considering you spent 3 month swimming around in daddy’s dangle bag
If you’re going to use that kind of logic, you have to use the age of your mother plus a few months, as women are born with their entire lifetime supply of eggs.
The thing is, we see/hear about the bad stuff at a much higher rate than the 'yep, works, it's fine" because 'yep, works' is boring...
Or we hear from the 'they can do no wrong' internet fanboys who, with good reason, annoy us.
I like my Sigs but I have no illusions they're flawless and, while I make the standard jokes about Glocks, really, the only reason I don't own any is 'not my taste'. (And I keep ending up modding my 320's to remove the plastic for the same reasons Glocks aren't my taste even when I have idiot moments and think "Oh, Wilson Combat or Tungsten, that'll be good..." and I end up unsatisfied with another plastic grip that gets tossed into the 'well that holster ended up sucking' pile I think we almost all have.)
In fact....
I was today years old when I learned, to find a holster you can really live with, buy four you end up hating.
I get that but if you owned guns before vs after Obama, the difference is pretty stark in QC practices across the industry. Gun manufacturers started toying with reducing CS and QC costs. At one point during one of the obamascares a small MA dealer told me he had to reject/send back 3 out of 12 sigs he just got for out of box issues that made them clearly unsaleable. Sig isn't quite that f***ed anymore, thankfully. But we'll never see pre-cohen levels of QC ever again. That's just the way the industry is, because they figured out that a huge % of new guns will never be fired and that a huge % of new gun buyers are rubes that aren't that critical of the product.
It's now basically "way of the road" to expect most mainstream gun cos to whore themselves out at least a little bit. I think HK is the only exception, but they make like 5 things.
View: https://youtu.be/WJd0Ge47aF4?si=_N50WxYhIF2S41I3
Mesatchornug
NES Member
FIFY
I suspect sig has some big staff turn over which probably creates the quality issue. They have a job title in Newington I keep am eye on and they seem to blow through 1-2 people a year on that one which should be a reasonably straightforward job.
Most people probably last 3 yrs or less. During covid the # of sig expats I talked to with that recurring theme was off the charts. Rather than maintaining a steady state, they do the anorexic binge purge thing. Not a bastion of job security. Lots of dysfunction. Sig is a place you go work while you're in between jobs or something.
I think it may also be "value engineering" rather than a darker 'screw the customer' dishonesty. The problem is, it can have the same net effect. There's a lot of 'optimization' across industries that, despite (the best?) intentions leads to what can sure feel like inferior products vs the 'good old days' . (I'd put Agile development practice into this bucket.)
The thing is, as problematic as these 'optimizations' are, there's also ever increasing complexity which absent some kind of optimization, would lead to spiraling costs. If every S&W needed to be made by a succession of dudes standing at a Bridgeport and then filing for twenty years on the job with a pension at the end, we'd be paying 5x more. (This isn't to say I don't think there's a lot to be said for that model from a 'big picture' societal perspective, I do.)
We may think, for example, a 320 is less complex than a 1911 because it's a pile of mim-parts, stampings and molded plastic but it's really hard to design for that kind of modularity. Factor all the material science going into which parts can be made with which alloys, which process most efficiently produces the disparate components. An FCU is a marvel of effective $%^&ittyness really. Out of the firearm, it's a 'barely avoids falling apart on your cleaning mat just from gravity' collection of tiny little fiddly bits that, once inserted into a frame, (by the end-user which is even harder) can endure thousands of rounds.
It's not as satisfying to hold, take apart, fiddle with thing in the same way a 'classic' model is but it's also a sort of a "holy, #$%^&, this works at all" kind of marvel. The same is true (though as I've said above, I have much less experience) with Glocks. They're inexpensive, they're extremely value engineered vs a 'classic' machined slab of steel but they are, by all accounts, ridiculously reliable and durable.
I'm rambling a bit, but the experience @MGnoob had with Smith and Wesson seems materially worse than many other vendors where they will, if it's wrong, make it right. Ruger and Sig even Kimber have all done way better making it right in my limited experience than "Pay me for a screw after 60 rounds" which they should have been glad the user was willing/able to install themselves than have to take the whole product in to fix it.
There's a YouTube channel: AvE where the guy does tool teardowns and reviews that goes into manufacturing processes, engineering compromises and value engineering in often really funny ways that, to me, also showcases the remarkable enginenerding that goes into making modern tools.
#$%^ now the thread I really had hoped would be many different folks sharing a series of small useful tips has gone off the rails and I'm in the middle of the detour myself....
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I think it may also be "value engineering" rather than a darker 'screw the customer' dishonesty. The problem is, it can have the same net effect. There's a lot of 'optimization' across industries that, despite (the best?) intentions leads to what can sure feel like inferior products vs the 'good old days' . (I'd put Agile development practice into this bucket.)
The thing is, as problematic as these 'optimizations' are, there's also ever increasing complexity which absent some kind of optimization, would lead to spiraling costs. If every S&W needed to be made by a succession of dudes standing at a Bridgeport and then filing for twenty years on the job with a pension at the end, we'd be paying 5x more. (This isn't to say I don't think there's a lot to be said for that model from a 'big picture' societal perspective, I do.)
We may think, for example, a 320 is less complex than a 1911 because it's a pile of mim-parts, stampings and molded plastic but it's really hard to design for that kind of modularity. Factor all the material science going into which parts can be made with which alloys, which process most efficiently produces the disparate components. An FCU is a marvel of effective $%^&ittyness really. Out of the firearm, it's a 'barely avoids falling apart on your cleaning mat just from gravity' collection of tiny little fiddly bits that, once inserted into a frame, (by the end-user which is even harder) can endure thousands of rounds.
It's not as satisfying to hold, take apart, fiddle with thing in the same way a 'classic' model is but it's also a sort of a "holy, #$%^&, this works at all" kind of marvel. The same is true (though as I've said above, I have much less experience) with Glocks. They're inexpensive, they're extremely value engineered vs a 'classic' machined slab of steel but they are, by all accounts, ridiculously reliable and durable.
I'm rambling a bit, but the experience @MGnoob had with Smith and Wesson seems materially worse than many other vendors where they will, if it's wrong, make it right. Ruger and Sig even Kimber have all done way better making it right in my limited experience than "Pay me for a screw after 60 rounds" which they should have be glad the user was willing/able to install themselves than have to take the whole product in to fix it.
There's a YouTube channel: AvE where the guy does tool teardowns and reviews that goes into manufacturing processes, engineering compromises and value engineering in often really funny ways that, to me, also showcases the remarkable enginenerding that goes into making modern tools.
#$%^ now the thread I really had hoped would be many different folks sharing a series of small useful tips has gone off the rails and I'm in the middle of the detour myself....
You call it value engineering I call it " corporatism and profit optimization without really giving a f*** about the customer beyond the ability to keep wooing them. "
These people figured out that the average gun buyer is a rube. So they recalibrate their QC/QA targets likely based on a different model than they did 15 yrs ago. As long as the fail rate doesn't actually cost them shitloads of losses or rep damage they don't care. They know 50% of the guns they make will never get fired or maybe 100rds or less and act accordingly. Although some manufacturers are much more dependent on rep than others. Smith? You could take a dried turd and stamp an SW logo on it and the SW acolytes will still buy it. Sig? Sigs a hard read because their customer base is broader. Glock? If glock makes junk (like they did in gen4 era) they get punished for it because the whole brand was reliability. That's why gen5 and unified finishes, better QC etc is a thing with then.. they learned it cost them money.
There's really no reason a broken gun out of box should be a thing, it's obvious these manufacturers are gaming/exploiting this to different degrees.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Some of what you're describing is true. Some is more damning than you realize. The point of "value engineering" is to do more with less.I think it may also be "value engineering" rather than a darker 'screw the customer' dishonesty. The problem is, it can have the same net effect. There's a lot of 'optimization' across industries that, despite (the best?) intentions leads to what can sure feel like inferior products vs the 'good old days' . (I'd put Agile development practice into this bucket.)
The thing is, as problematic as these 'optimizations' are, there's also ever increasing complexity which absent some kind of optimization, would lead to spiraling costs. If every S&W needed to be made by a succession of dudes standing at a Bridgeport and then filing for twenty years on the job with a pension at the end, we'd be paying 5x more. (This isn't to say I don't think there's a lot to be said for that model from a 'big picture' societal perspective, I do.)
We may think, for example, a 320 is less complex than a 1911 because it's a pile of mim-parts, stampings and molded plastic but it's really hard to design for that kind of modularity. Factor all the material science going into which parts can be made with which alloys, which process most efficiently produces the disparate components. An FCU is a marvel of effective $%^&ittyness really. Out of the firearm, it's a 'barely avoids falling apart on your cleaning mat just from gravity' collection of tiny little fiddly bits that, once inserted into a frame, (by the end-user which is even harder) can endure thousands of rounds.
It's not as satisfying to hold, take apart, fiddle with thing in the same way a 'classic' model is but it's also a sort of a "holy, #$%^&, this works at all" kind of marvel. The same is true (though as I've said above, I have much less experience) with Glocks. They're inexpensive, they're extremely value engineered vs a 'classic' machined slab of steel but they are, by all accounts, ridiculously reliable and durable.
I'm rambling a bit, but the experience @MGnoob had with Smith and Wesson seems materially worse than many other vendors where they will, if it's wrong, make it right. Ruger and Sig even Kimber have all done way better making it right in my limited experience than "Pay me for a screw after 60 rounds" which they should have been glad the user was willing/able to install themselves than have to take the whole product in to fix it.
There's a YouTube channel: AvE where the guy does tool teardowns and reviews that goes into manufacturing processes, engineering compromises and value engineering in often really funny ways that, to me, also showcases the remarkable enginenerding that goes into making modern tools.
#$%^ now the thread I really had hoped would be many different folks sharing a series of small useful tips has gone off the rails and I'm in the middle of the detour myself....
As design engineers, we have a million little levers to pull, many you call out. If your FCU barely stays together outside the grip frame until the user wrestles the former into the latter, you've done a bad job at optimizing all those variables. In the best case, this speaks to not caring about customer experience.
And yes, AvE's BOLTRs are an awesome peek into the world of consumer product design.
