How to easily and safely get rid of your firearms for a certain time period

[TOM1960]

What you suggest is a simple way to cover your ass from confiscation, but it doesn't shield you from the financial part of the "community property". Depending on the timing before, or during the filing process, a good attorney will still get half of the current retail value of the goods that you "gave" to your friend. For this reason, and only if it's a real friend/person you trust, I would suggest that there be a bill of sale for a believable amount of money, even if it's $100 per gun to show that they were actually "sold". The whole selling for a dollar thing is way too transparent. Worst case scenario, you may have to add $50 for each gun back into the settlement, but at least you keep your stuff cleanly. If it's ever questioned by the judge, you can always say you needed to sell them quickly to be able to pay your lawyer!

My ex wasn't licensed. If she wanted to argue about my rifle, shotgun and ammunition being "community property", she has two problems. First of all, there was no documentation in the house that indicated that I owned firearms. Both firearms were purchased in NH, so there was no FA-10 records for her lawyer to "discover". Second problem was the lack of licensing. If she wants to falsely admit ownership of my firearms, good luck with that. She would be admitting in court, under oath, to committing three felonies: two counts of possession of a firearm without an FID card (one rifle and one shotgun), as well as numerous counts of possession of ammunition without an FID card (one count for each live round; I had about 200 rounds of .308 ammo and 100 rounds of 12-gauge OO buckshot, rifled slugs and birdshot). She would be looking at some serious jail time. I think her lawyer knew that.

 

[cmacclel]

What you suggest is a simple way to cover your ass from confiscation, but it doesn't shield you from the financial part of the "community property". Depending on the timing before, or during the filing process, a good attorney will still get half of the current retail value of the goods that you "gave" to your friend. For this reason, and only if it's a real friend/person you trust, I would suggest that there be a bill of sale for a believable amount of money, even if it's $100 per gun to show that they were actually "sold". The whole selling for a dollar thing is way too transparent. Worst case scenario, you may have to add $50 for each gun back into the settlement, but at least you keep your stuff cleanly. If it's ever questioned by the judge, you can always say you needed to sell them quickly to be able to pay your lawyer!

In the OP's original post he said her family members suggested he get rid of his firearms to "Help" the marriage. From what I read it sounds like divorce proceeding's have yet to start.

 

[Smash05]

Careful, it is also Property to be divided in a proceeding

 

[freedom2012]

My head is spinning.

Sell them to a trusted friend at market value. Say he paid cash and then you went out and drank it all away with your buddies. In reality, no cash changed hands and when the dust settles, move to NH and buy the guns back for the same amount, no cash need to change hands.

 

[spooler41]

If any court questions a $1.00 sale price , you can always site the U.S. government selling an "Aircraft Carrier" for $1.00 as
scrap. What's good for government is good for you.

...........................Jack

 

[NeverMiss]

Ok, stupid question. Does having an RO put up on you make you an instant PP???

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ok, stupid question. Does having an RO put up on you make you an instant PP???

Yes, federally and in all states and territories. At the Fed level it is called the Lautenberg Act!

 

[NeverMiss]

Yes, federally and in all states and territories. At the Fed level it is called the Lautenberg Act!

Ah, I figured it would be "yes".

 

[TOM1960]

If any court questions a $1.00 sale price , you can always site the U.S. government selling an "Aircraft Carrier" for $1.00 as
scrap. What's good for government is good for you.

...........................Jack

An individual can indeed sell a valuable item for $1.00 and do so legally. When Dad's age and failing reflexes and eyesight made it dangerous for him to drive, we sold his car to a family friend for $1.00. Perfectly legal. Of course, the friend had to pay the sales tax to the RMV at registration time, which was calculated based on the blue book value of the car. But you can sell your guns to a friend for $1.00 each if you wish to.

 

[Quiet]

Not so sure that they would still need to be surrendered as long as they were in the FFL's book, AND you were ordered to surrender your LTC because that would mean that you could have no legal access to them at that point until the RO was lifted and LTC returned. The bigger risk is that you still own the property, which then becomes subject to it's value being halved as joint marital property. For this reason alone, I would either sell everything that's replaceable for cash with no bank transactions/minimal paper trail as possible, then put the ones you can't replace out of state, bury, etc. so that can not be found. Most importantly keep things as amicable as humanly possible. The reality is that no one has this happen "overnight". You always have symptoms and signs that appear months, if not years prior to things actually ending so if you don't take the time to protect your assets then you have no one to blame but yourself. Having guns in a state like MA definitely opens you up for all sorts of hardships though since it is super easy for a woman to get an RO just by virtue of you owning a gun.

Where are you getting all of this time? Most of the time the RO comes out of the blue if it's fake and as a result of an argument/altercation. When do you suppose you have all this time to bury things and sell others and....

Generally sound advice, but that last line about knowing how far they will go? Usually by the time you find that out it's already too late to do anything, which is why most made proactive suggestions if he wants to keep his gear.

You raised the same issue about your own post too

Lesson number 1: Never date or marry a wo/man who might seek a RO against you.
Lesson number 2: Never date or marry.

 

[Terminator03]

Where are you getting all of this time? Most of the time the RO comes out of the blue if it's fake and as a result of an argument/altercation. When do you suppose you have all this time to bury things and sell others and....


You raised the same issue about your own post too

Lesson number 1: Never date or marry a wo/man who might seek a RO against you.
Lesson number 2: Never date or marry.

The reason you have "all of this time" is because you will know a long while before things get really ugly (to the point of an RO) that the marriage is in trouble. I realize that once an RO is put in place it's already to late to sell, or hide anything. No one goes from a blissful relationship one day, and then suddenly wakes up "surprised" with an RO the next day. I suppose it could happen in the rare case of a cheating spouse that's a good enough actress that you never even suspected a problem, but this would be the exception, and the op already said his friend realizes that there is trouble brewing like happens in most situations.

WRT to lesson 1. No one ever knows how they (or their spouse will act/react in a divorce as things can get ugly very easily depending on circumstances. Lesson 2. I have to say I agree with all the way, but alas, most of us lose focus and fall into it at some point anyway.

 

[whacko]

Lots of good advice here....I agree with a "sale" of all fire arms to a friend immediately and with documents to prove they were sold and out of possession.....then after it all calms down buy then back. Could also try to trap the soon to be ex.....don't tell her you sold them......leave the safe empty or empty cases where u usually did and don't tell her the guns are going so she might think you still have em......then see is she goes for a. RO stating you threatened her with a fire arm and you got her for purgery Cruz they weren't even in the house.

 

[EJFudd]

Yes, federally and in all states and territories. At the Fed level it is called the Lautenberg Act!

The only thing good about Frank Lautenberg is that he is dead now.

The Lautenberg Amendment is unconstitutional but the courts have managed to ignore or dance around that fact repeatedly.

The worst part, beyond ex post facto, is ignoring the fact that (false) RO's have become standard operating procedure in far too many divorces. It's epidemic. We have all seen it. Instant prohibited person... perhaps for life.

As bad as the loss of 2A rights are, the economic impact can be even more devastating. Own just 2 or 3 guns and who cares. Own a valuable collection brought together over a lifetime and there goes your life savings and/or retirement.

Quiet is right:

Lesson number 1: Never date or marry a wo/man who might seek a RO against you.
Lesson number 2: Never date or marry.

 

[Smash05]

The only thing good about Frank Lautenberg is that he is dead now.

The Lautenberg Amendment is unconstitutional but the courts have managed to ignore or dance around that fact repeatedly.

The worst part, beyond ex post facto, is ignoring the fact that (false) RO's have become standard operating procedure in far too many divorces. It's epidemic. We have all seen it. Instant prohibited person... perhaps for life.

As bad as the loss of 2A rights are, the economic impact can be even more devastating. Own just 2 or 3 guns and who cares. Own a valuable collection brought together over a lifetime and there goes your life savings and/or retirement.

Quiet is right:

Standard of proof is extraordinarily low, which is IMO a due process issue.

 

[je25ff]

Pro-tip here: If you have any inkling, ANY, that a divorce will be served to you, you may want to immediately transfer the firearms or get them out of your legal ownership. The reason being that one of the stipulations in a divorce summons is a temporary restraining order on selling or transferring anything that can be deemed a, 'marital asset' That means you will need your wife's permission to sell them and potentially sell them for a fair market price. What I mean is really that it's all up in the air and isn't just your choice anymore.

What I'd really like to hear from someone is a recommendation to create a trust from the very beginning of firearm ownership and purchase the firearms for the trust. Although I'm not sure whether that's a, 'marital asset'.

I am not a lawyer, so get advice from a real one. Just my opinion here.

 

[Terminator03]

Pro-tip here: If you have any inkling, ANY, that a divorce will be served to you, immediately transfer the firearms or get them out of your legal ownership. The reason being that one of the stipulations in a divorce summons is a temporary restraining order on selling or transferring anything that can be deemed a, 'marital asset' That means you will need your wife's permission to sell them and potentially sell them for a fair market price. What I mean is really that it's all up in the air and isn't just your choice anymore.

What I'd really like to hear from someone is a recommendation to create a trust from the very beginning of firearm ownership and purchase the firearms for the trust. Although I'm not sure whether that's a, 'marital asset'.

I am not a lawyer, so get advice from a real one. Just my opinion here.

That's actually an interesting suggestion about the trust. I'm not a lawyer either, but it seems logical that a trust would offer the same protections as a pre-nup, or a will, and if so would be a viable option. Hopefully one of our more legally versed members will chime in on this.

 

[je25ff]

That's actually an interesting suggestion about the trust. I'm not a lawyer either, but it seems logical that a trust would offer the same protections as a pre-nup, or a will, and if so would be a viable option. Hopefully one of our more legally versed members will chime in on this.

I often hear of the Class III guys doing this for their guns and figured why not for the rest of us, depending on how valuable our collection is and if the cost of creating the trust is worth it.

As for the RO piece, if a judge signs off on it, you are done when it comes to possessing a firearm so the trust piece of this would be a moot point unless it's just a monetary issue because you can still sell them (as far as I know) even if they are confiscated and in a warehouse.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Lots of good advice here....I agree with a "sale" of all fire arms to a friend immediately and with documents to prove they were sold and out of possession.....then after it all calms down buy then back. Could also try to trap the soon to be ex.....don't tell her you sold them......leave the safe empty or empty cases where u usually did and don't tell her the guns are going so she might think you still have em......then see is she goes for a. RO stating you threatened her with a fire arm and you got her for purgery Cruz they weren't even in the house.

Don't bother. Every judge knows that "divorce court" is "liars court" and no women (probably ever) gets prosecuted for lying about what the SO did to her.

 

[je25ff]

Don't bother. Every judge knows that "divorce court" is "liars court" and no women (probably ever) gets prosecuted for lying about what the SO did to her.

Yet another reason to IMMEDIATELY remove all your firearms from your house once a divorce summons has been served. Remove it as a factor in the he said she said battle.

 

[Quiet]

The reason you have "all of this time" is because you will know a long while before things get really ugly (to the point of an RO) that the marriage is in trouble. I realize that once an RO is put in place it's already to late to sell, or hide anything. No one goes from a blissful relationship one day, and then suddenly wakes up "surprised" with an RO the next day. I suppose it could happen in the rare case of a cheating spouse that's a good enough actress that you never even suspected a problem, but this would be the exception, and the op already said his friend realizes that there is trouble brewing like happens in most situations.

WRT to lesson 1. No one ever knows how they (or their spouse will act/react in a divorce as things can get ugly very easily depending on circumstances. Lesson 2. I have to say I agree with all the way, but alas, most of us lose focus and fall into it at some point anyway.

Thankfully I have never been in a divorce situation.

My experience watching others and listening to friends and relatives is mixed. For some things were bad (some very bad). Others not so much. They got into an argument, perhaps one of a string of arguments over years and years, and the spouse just decides: "Enough is enough" and decides after talking to her friends that a RO to get him out of the house is the proper/easiest thing for her to do, maybe even just to "teach him a lesson".

 

[chris_1001]

Curious on the trust stuff, how would one transfer any guns to a trust? (not talking NFA stuff)

 

[Squished]

Curious on the trust stuff, how would one transfer any guns to a trust? (not talking NFA stuff)

Put them on a schedule with serial numbers, descriptions, hell I even included pictures in mine, get it signed and notarized and write them into the trust. That's the basics of it, there's a little more to it then that but putting things into a trust is that difficult.

 

[Quiet]

Put them on a schedule with serial numbers, descriptions, hell I even included pictures in mine, get it signed and notarized and write them into the trust. That's the basics of it, there's a little more to it then that but putting things into a trust is that difficult.

But a trust owned/controlled/created/funded by hubby during the marriage is likely a marital asset anyway...

There might be ways around it like making it irrevocable and under the control of other people, but I wouldn't bet on that taking the guns out of reach of the local PD following up on a RO.

IANAL

 

[Len-2A Training]

But a trust owned/controlled/created/funded by hubby during the marriage is likely a marital asset anyway...

There might be ways around it like making it irrevocable and under the control of other people, but I wouldn't bet on that taking the guns out of reach of the local PD following up on a RO.

IANAL

At least in MA you are right. They will take them all, don't care about ownership or paper. They'll tell you to have the court sort it out (after they ship them to a bonded warehouse)!

 

[je25ff]

At least in MA you are right. They will take them all, don't care about ownership or paper. They'll tell you to have the court sort it out (after they ship them to a bonded warehouse)!

Well, there goes that idea I guess really the only way to do it is to put the trust in the name of another person (like a parent or very, very good friend) although I still have no idea if the person with legal right to the trust can legally own firearms, as opposed to possess them.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Well, there goes that idea I guess really the only way to do it is to put the trust in the name of another person (like a parent or very, very good friend) although I still have no idea if the person with legal right to the trust can legally own firearms, as opposed to possess them.

If they are in the residence when they serve an RO, all the guns are gone! Matters not who owns them. See Jarvis v. Village Vault (on www.comm2a.org) for proof of that.

 

[je25ff]

If they are in the residence when they serve an RO, all the guns are gone! Matters not who owns them. See Jarvis v. Village Vault (on www.comm2a.org) for proof of that.

So it's really the possession part of it then. So now we get into a logistically complicated mess where, not only do you need a trust with someone else having legal ownership of the trust, but you would need to store them elsewhere. On top of that, you might still face a contempt of court for not turning them in anyways. It's just a shit sandwich mess.

 

[falcon123]

Lesson number 1: Never date or marry a wo/man who might seek a RO against you.
Lesson number 2: Never date or marry.

you must be blind by now.

 

[Len-2A Training]

So it's really the possession part of it then. So now we get into a logistically complicated mess where, not only do you need a trust with someone else having legal ownership of the trust, but you would need to store them elsewhere. On top of that, you might still face a contempt of court for not turning them in anyways. It's just a shit sandwich mess.

No, it is not contempt of court . . . it is a felony violation of C. 269 S. 10.

 

[je25ff]

No, it is not contempt of court . . . it is a felony violation of C. 269 S. 10.

Makes sense. I had initially thought that a judge would order that the firearms be turned over IF they are not found at the person's residence. I guess the very act of telling a PO that you don't want to tell them where the firearms are located is a felony on it's own. I'm confused by the actual physical seizure of the firearms anyways. I'd assume the police would have a warrant-like ability to enter the home and search for anything firearm related and confiscate. I just don't know what happens if nothing is found.