Hospital uses armed man in unannounced drill

[cekim]

I'm a little surprised at the reaction here. Drills like this do and should happen every day in hospitals throughout the country. If anything, the hospitals don't do ENOUGH to prepare.

[sad2]

The analogy here is throwing a malatov cocktail into a theater in the middle of a movie under the assumption that you have guys waiting just outside with fire extinguishers. I mean, "gosh, we want people to be prepared - right?"

WTF?

Armed gunman running into a room is not a fire alarm going off randomly... Not even in the same universe...

 

[n1oty]

I'm a little surprised at the reaction here. Drills like this do and should happen every day in hospitals throughout the country. If anything, the hospitals don't do ENOUGH to prepare.

This particular drill in this particular hospital went to hell because one or more people screwed up big time. All that really proves is that one or more people screwed up big time, not that the idea of being prepared is overrated.

Again, I will respectfully and completely disagree. The entire premise of training drills is to SAFELY inculcate the proper knowledge and response required by the trainees in the event such an event should happen in real life. Training does have immense value. However, it is important that such training also be performed safely, both for the participants and the public. Closing down an area and using citizen/volunteers is fine. The fact that they know the training program in advance is of no consequence. You are not trying to teach them in these types of drills. Leaving your training area open to the entire public is simply asking for trouble. An open training area will allow public involvement, which is undesireable.

I understand your point about wanting to inject some reality to the training, but there must be limits. For example, the military likes live fire exercises and they like OPFOR style training, but they do not mix the two.

 

[namedpipes]

There wasn't supposed to BE reality in that training exercise. That was a monumental screwup and the chowderhead that was supposed to brief the staff should probably be fired.

I'm not advocating that hospitals should or should not conduct realistic/unrealistic/whatever drills.

I'm saying that hospitals are a target and for them to do nothing is stupid. We can debate how many terrorists can dance on the head of a pin until the cows come home, but doing NOTHING is worse than training nurses to be sheep.

If you think the current efforts at effective training are inadequate and misdirected, you're probably right. Just come up with a BETTER plan and SELL it.

Does anyone here (obviously other than SAS) plan / train / prepare for things that might go wrong? Appleseed should be disbanded? Is IDPA purely competition or is it used as training? Why train at all?

 

[n1heu]

Two points.
1: The purpose of a drill is to prepare for an event. The event never happens as drilled, something will always be different. A properly planned simulation can have all the edge and surprise that the participants can handle without being supremely stupid and endangering the public like this hopefully ex-cop did. Yes, everyone from the admins to the planners to the cops should be canned. They have demonstrated fatal stupidity here.
2: Conditioning for unconstitutional searches and voluntary giving up of all rights takes place every day in your public school systems. The loss of privacy and rights is happening right in front of you all right now at airports, banks, stores, in your cars and here on the internet. The day is near where every dime you spend will have to be government approved or sanctioned. All in the name of 'safety'.
Face it, the Republic is no more. It has been almost entirely replaced by a democracy. Read a little Roman history to find out the future.

 

[n1oty]

Frankly, now that you mention it, I believe we had better stop the terrorists BEFORE they actually strike places such as a hospital. History shows us that actual terrorist hostage situations RARELY are resolved without casualties. Look at all the terrorism-based hostage situations from the 1960's on, such as the 1972 Olympics, the rebel hostage-taking a number of years back in Moscow, etc. Anyone who seriously believes that they have a good chance of resolving a terrorist-based hostage taking without casualties is deluding themselves. Why don't we try stopping these terrorists at the border first and then stop the financing coming from oversees to wannabe muslim terrorists already here.

There wasn't supposed to BE reality in that training exercise. That was a monumental screwup and the chowderhead that was supposed to brief the staff should probably be fired.

I'm not advocating that hospitals should or should not conduct realistic/unrealistic/whatever drills.

I'm saying that hospitals are a target and for them to do nothing is stupid. We can debate how many terrorists can dance on the head of a pin until the cows come home, but doing NOTHING is worse than training nurses to be sheep.

If you think the current efforts at effective training are inadequate and misdirected, you're probably right. Just come up with a BETTER plan and SELL it.

Does anyone here (obviously other than SAS) plan / train / prepare for things that might go wrong? Appleseed should be disbanded? Is IDPA purely competition or is it used as training? Why train at all?

 

[seanc]

This is just beyond belief. It really is amazing that no one was actually hurt as a result of this fuster cluck.

As this is essentially a public place, you would assume that patients, visitors and staff are continuously coming and going from where this took place. Or did they seal off the area while this dog and pony show was being staged?

It is amazing that nobody shot the Tango.
As this police officer is herding all of the people into one place, who was caring for the patients?
If A CCW holder did move to act, how did the LEO/ terrorist plan to identify himself as a leo and diffuse the situation?

How many of the patients, visitors and staff are now going to the sue the hospital and the LEO of assault, kidnapping, emotional distress, patient abandonment, etc?

 

[Cabinetman]

That's one lucky "actor'. I've just buried my mom and we spent many days in her hospital while she was being treated. I carry ALL the time. After being put through the emotional wringer, having some yahoo waving a handgun around would have just about been the last thing I needed.

This is NOT an isolated incident. There have been a number of "reality" staged or mock events held like this in public, some for reality TV comedy shows. Whoever the producers/planners are for such events, they simply don't understand that there are those of us out there prepared to take action......lethal action should events warrant it. I pray to God that I'll never be required to pull my pistol in defense of myself, my famly, or some stranger in dire straits but I know I would given the right circumstances and I train myself for just that. To purposefully stage a "mock" attack with some guy waving a pistol in a public place like a hospital is just the stupidist and most ignorant thing anyone can do. In a controlled environment with no public; No problem. Close off a street and stage anything you want. Just don't put ME and all the other guys and gals who carry into condition red because of your stupidity. My gosh. What would have happened if someone had pulled his .38 from his back holster and pointed it at that guy? Sheesh....such asses.

 

[namedpipes]

Frankly, now that you mention it, I believe we had better stop the terrorists BEFORE they actually strike places such as a hospital. . . . Anyone who seriously believes that they have a good chance of resolving a terrorist-based hostage taking without casualties is deluding themselves. Why don't we try stopping these terrorists at the border first and then stop the financing coming from oversees to wannabe muslim terrorists already here.

Here we agree 1000%.

 

[cekim]

That's one lucky "actor'. I've just buried my mom and we spent many days in her hospital while she was being treated. I carry ALL the time. After being put through the emotional wringer, having some yahoo waving a handgun around would have just about been the last thing I needed.

The impairment of judgment at all levels of this process is just stunning. Off-duty cop should be fired at a minimum (for being willing to do something so stupid) and he and everyone else should face charges for this. The reason you mention is just one of many reasons that 'the public' should come down like a ton of bricks on garbage like this.

Particularly in 'anti' places like NY, MA, CA they don't ask the intention of the person who flashed even a holstered weapon, much less waved one around and started taking hostages. You get charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

 

[seanc]

Particularly in 'anti' places like NY, MA, CA they don't ask the intention of the person who flashed even a holstered weapon, much less waved one around and started taking hostages. You get charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

Seems to me herding people into a room would definitely count as kidnapping. As well as stopping people from calling 911 to be a felony as well.
How is this guy NOT in jail? Under what circumstances is ADW, Kidnapping, etc, not actionable?
And why is it that he and those responsible are NOT being charged?

 

[MaineCWPtraining]

not actionable?

I suggest double action.

 

[TomH]

I'm a little surprised at the reaction here. Drills like this do and should happen every day in hospitals throughout the country. If anything, the hospitals don't do ENOUGH to prepare.

This particular drill in this particular hospital went to hell because one or more people screwed up big time. All that really proves is that one or more people screwed up big time, not that the idea of being prepared is overrated.

Unless they could guarantee that every single person in the building had knowledge and instructions for the situation, then they shouldn't have done it. Just ONE person not in the loop could result in a fatality. Someone just walking in the building off the street. And really, if you were drilling for this situation, you should really ACT like you would in this situation. In this case it was a bunch of people cowering accepting their possible death. But the real best reaction to this situation would be to disarm/maim/kill the attacker, even in a training scenario. How do you "drill" to take out an attacker with any and all means possible without hurting someone? Answer: you can't.

 

[Spanz]

Yes, the only way they could have done it would have been either offsite, or in an auditorium room, where ALL the people present were told there would be simulated situations coming. And even then, it would be iffy.

Aside from the obvious problem of the cop getting himself shot....what if some worker had a heart attack from the stress of having a gun pointed at him. It would be manslaughter for the cop at that point.

 

[Cabinetman]

Ya mean the one if four who are from "other nations" and aren't being accounted for? I'm sure they are just upstanding individuals who just want to pick tomatoes.

Rome

 

[cekim]

if they wanted to make this drill useful, they'd setup the staff with paint-ball guns and mock patients in various states of need and see how quickly they could take down the perp and keep their mock patients from coding...

 

[MaineCWPtraining]

In Maine, as a Concealed Firearm Permit holder you are lawfully justified to shoot to protect innocent others regardless of the risk of shooting bystanders…