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Help understanding gun trust confusion (for non NFA guns).

Cuz

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I've searched, and I've read, and now I'm more confused than when I started.

Is there any benefit to having a gun trust in MA if there are no NFA items involved?
If so, what are they?

How do you put your current (non NFA) firearms into the Trust?

Assuming the following situation. I create the trust, with myself, my wife, and kids as Trustees and Beneficiaries. I then put all four of my firearms into the Trust.

Does that mean that I no longer own any firearms (since they belong to the trust)?
What happens if one of the Trustees gets in trouble and can no longer own/possess firearms?
What happens if a Trustee gets served with a Restraining Order by an outside party? Do the guns get taken away? Or possibly not, because the Trustee doesn't own any of the guns.

I'm trying to figure out how a Gun Trust would protect me, my family, and both of my guns. And, yeah, I know I should talk to a gun trust lawyer, and I will, but I want to better understand things before I do that so I don't waste both of our time.

And, lastly, if I do want to add an SBR down the road, is it the same Gun Trust whether or not there are any NFA items involved?

Thanks,
-Cuz
 

MGnoob

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To put non nfa items in a trust you just fill them in on the "assignment sheet" or atleast that is hwst i think its called...its where the trust property is itemized...as far as MA is concerned you still own the guns.you can add or remove trust members at your will. As far as somone getting in trouble, youd just remve them.. with nfa items the trust lets everyone on the trust share access...with non nfa stuff its really not even relevant.. everyone still needs to meet the state requirement...you can loan a non nfa gun to anyone who can legally posses it..
using a non nfa trust to then use it for NFA has one major drawback...you'd be providing the atf with a list of every gun you own.

regardless youd setup a nfa trust and use it for non nfa item, and a second nfa trust to use with nfa items...they are free.
The main point of nfa trusts for most people was to avoid CLEO sign off which is no longer a requirement.
i still find alot of utility using trust unfortunaly the new fingerprinting for all responcible partys is impractical.
Once i receive all my nfa currently being transfer to me as an individual.. i may eat the 200 for each item to then move them to the trust..but im not sure if its worth waisting the $1200


hope this helps pm me with any questions
 

Cuz

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To put non nfa items in a trust you just fill them in on the "assignment sheet" or atleast that is hwst i think its called...its where the trust property is itemized...as far as MA is concerned you still own the guns.you can add or remove trust members at your will. As far as somone getting in trouble, youd just remve them..

So, if MA still considers me the owner, what happens if I get in trouble? The question that came up was could I just remove myself as a Trustee and that would be it. Sounds like the answer is no.
 

Len-2A Training

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Talk with Rock Maple (atty who does NFA trusts) about it. What I got out of the discussion is that in MA it buys you nothing wrt non-NFA stuff.

If anyone in your household gets their LTC suspended/revoked for any reason (including RO), the local PD will take everything, that is how probably 95% of the PDs roll. I've confirmed this with multiple departments and explained it here many times in the past (and in my MA Gun Law seminars).
 

Cuz

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Len,
We were in that class for like 5 hours! Nobody can possibly remember EVERYTHING that was covered. It was like a waterfall of information, all of it good, but I just don't remember it all. And, it was about five years ago! Maybe it's time for a refresher class...
 

Len-2A Training

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Len,
We were in that class for like 5 hours! Nobody can possibly remember EVERYTHING that was covered. It was like a waterfall of information, all of it good, but I just don't remember it all. And, it was about five years ago! Maybe it's time for a refresher class...

I agree that it is a waterfall of info, took me 40 yrs to amass all that info and both the 1998 and 2014 laws had >100 "sections" to them, so it isn't trivial to try to teach or understand all the pertinent info to stay out of legal trouble.

I've had a number of repeat students and since info has changed in the past 5 years, a refresher is probably a good idea.
 

Asaltweapon

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It is my understanding that in Mass the trust is meaningless for non NFA items because the trust can not own the items. They must belong to an individual.
 

LuvDog

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In MA my plan to use the trust would be to keep my stuff away from our bonded warehouse friends in an unplanned event

Wouldn't that still be possible?


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In MA my plan to use the trust would be to keep my stuff away from our bonded warehouse friends in an unplanned event

Wouldn't that still be possible?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doesn't sound like that's the case according to what Len said above in post #4.
 

Cuz

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In MA my plan to use the trust would be to keep my stuff away from our bonded warehouse friends in an unplanned event

Wouldn't that still be possible?


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That's exactly what I was hoping for.


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Len-2A Training

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Doesn't sound like that's the case according to what Len said above in post #4.

You are correct. In fact even if others live there, have LTCs and aren't "involved", their guns will go too in 99% of the cases. Check out Jarvis v. Village Vault (read the whole thing) link on Comm2a.org and you will see that what I stated is the way things work in MA.
 

bigblue

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It is my understanding that in Mass the trust is meaningless for non NFA items because the trust can not own the items. They must belong to an individual.


The trust can definitely own them, I think the issue is that the illegal gun registration that MA uses (can we challenge this in court now???) does not allow firearms to be FA10'd to trusts. Can you FA10 to a corporation?
 

Len-2A Training

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I would think the state would have a more difficult time justifying confiscatiion of propertyfrom a legal entity but IANL.

Any "justification" would take place months after VV takes possession. So the point of arguing that it was wrong becomes moot, sadly.
 

MGnoob

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Your intended use of the trust will simply not work in MA. Regardless if you get introuble youd still have to transfer every gun like the trust didnt exist. There is no way to stop police from takeing your guns except for them being unable to find them.
 

glide

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Any "justification" would take place months after VV takes possession. So the point of arguing that it was wrong becomes moot, sadly.

I would imagine it provides some additional legal recourse at that point should one choose to pursue. Confiscating property from a trust and violating the provisions thereof seems like asking for a headache on the PD's part.

But it is MA so...cops.
 

Asaltweapon

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The trust can definitely own them, I think the issue is that the illegal gun registration that MA uses (can we challenge this in court now???) does not allow firearms to be FA10'd to trusts. Can you FA10 to a corporation?

Call it what ever you like. Won't work in Mass is what I've been told off NES not to mention what others are writing. My trust, drawn up by the aforementioned attorney was started for NFA reasons. I will most likely move the trust out of state or just close it when the time comes. I expect the time to come soon due to the 7-20 action. I haven't heard a peep coming from ATF on my SBR in almost 10 months and given the current state conditions I don't expect one.

Sucks but not a lot anyone can do about it.

If the cops are banging on my door for my guns I got bigger problems to worry about.
 

RockMaple

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Is there any benefit to having a gun trust in MA if there are no NFA items involved?
If so, what are they?

The primary benefits of using a gun trust for non-NFA firearms are estate and succession planning.

How do you put your current (non NFA) firearms into the Trust?

It depends on how the trust is drafted. My trusts and some others utilize a form to assign your interest in the property to the trust.

Assuming the following situation. I create the trust, with myself, my wife, and kids as Trustees and Beneficiaries. I then put all four of my firearms into the Trust.

Does that mean that I no longer own any firearms (since they belong to the trust
)?

For probate purposes, yes. As for the Form FA-10 regime, no - they still belong to you as an individual.
What happens if one of the Trustees gets in trouble and can no longer own/possess firearms?

The terms of the trust may spell out what needs to happen (mine do), but the trustee should resign and hand over all trust property immediately.

What happens if a Trustee gets served with a Restraining Order by an outside party? Do the guns get taken away? Or possibly not, because the Trustee doesn't own any of the guns.

All firearms in the trustee's possession must be surrendered. One more reason to be very selective about who you appoint as a trustee.

And, lastly, if I do want to add an SBR down the road, is it the same Gun Trust whether or not there are any NFA items involved?

Some trusts are suitable for both NFA and non-NFA firearms. Mine are suitable for both.

Please feel free to PM with other questions about NFA trusts.
 

Asaltweapon

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Is there any benefit to having a gun trust in MA if there are no NFA items involved?
If so, what are they?

The primary benefits of using a gun trust for non-NFA firearms are estate and succession planning.

How do you put your current (non NFA) firearms into the Trust?

It depends on how the trust is drafted. My trusts and some others utilize a form to assign your interest in the property to the trust.

Assuming the following situation. I create the trust, with myself, my wife, and kids as Trustees and Beneficiaries. I then put all four of my firearms into the Trust.

Does that mean that I no longer own any firearms (since they belong to the trust
)?

For probate purposes, yes. As for the Form FA-10 regime, no - they still belong to you as an individual.
What happens if one of the Trustees gets in trouble and can no longer own/possess firearms?

The terms of the trust may spell out what needs to happen (mine do), but the trustee should resign and hand over all trust property immediately.

What happens if a Trustee gets served with a Restraining Order by an outside party? Do the guns get taken away? Or possibly not, because the Trustee doesn't own any of the guns.

All firearms in the trustee's possession must be surrendered. One more reason to be very selective about who you appoint as a trustee.

And, lastly, if I do want to add an SBR down the road, is it the same Gun Trust whether or not there are any NFA items involved?

Some trusts are suitable for both NFA and non-NFA firearms. Mine are suitable for both.

Please feel free to PM with other questions about NFA trusts.


Jeff,

Can I assume that I misunderstood what we talked about? That I can indeed place all of my firearms into the trust for estate purposes thus avoiding probate? If you recall there is just my wife and I.
 

RockMaple

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Jeff,

Can I assume that I misunderstood what we talked about? That I can indeed place all of my firearms into the trust for estate purposes thus avoiding probate? If you recall there is just my wife and I.

Sorry I'm just seeing this now. All firearms may be held by my trusts, thereby avoiding probate. Others' trusts may differ, however. Please send me a PM if you have additional questions.
 
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