• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

Hands vs. Guns

M.Nastek

Instructor
NES Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
420
Likes
16
Location
On a "Range" Near By.
Feedback: 34 / 0 / 0
Just hot of the Press what is the general thoughton this topic.

HANDS v.s. GUNS : One Perspective

You shiver slightly from the cold evening air as you reach up to retrieve your receipt from the ATM machine. Your stretch your neck around, muscles are still sore from yesterday’s workout. It’s been a long hard day and you’re glad it’s almost over. The hunger in your belly reminds you of the next errand on the list. Just one more stop at the all-night grocery store and…
“Alright Mother------! Give me your f…ing money, and your keys!”
Startled, you turn around at the sound of the voice, the content of his words not yet registering in your brain. He’s a rough looking street person, about 20, unshaven, hairy, dirty, and he smells bad. He looks like he’s on drugs. Your eyes survey him and then surprise turns to sudden shock as you see the chrome-plated revolver in his trembling and tattooed hand!
The situation you just read about has happened many times, both to accomplished martial artists as well as to armed off-duty police officers. Hopeless? Not at all. But this situation carries with it, some dynamics that cannot be answered with a speedy fast-draw nor with a spinning back kick. To win this encounter, and by all means it is very winnable, you must understand several things about the realities of human conflict at close quarters.
Primarily, you must have your “warrior mind” set correctly. Winning a real fight requires controlled violence. You must be able to call up your “dragon” on demand and become a fierce feral creature instead of the domesticated human you have been raised to be. If you are not emotionally and psychologically prepared to rip your adversary’s heart out of his chest and barbecue it in front of his fading eyes, forget about trying anything. Your best bet, if you lack for a killer attitude, is to simply submit, be nice to him and give him what he wants, and hope for the best. I do not believe that giving in is a viable option to consider, and presumably, neither do you. Even if you think that you’ll never stand up to the gun, I can paint many scenarios where you might choose to do so. If you agree, then lets have a look at how to solve this problem and win the day.
First of all, I am not advocating that any secret skills or ancient martial art, nor any new technique can withstand a bullet. Any martial artist that thinks otherwise has been smoking too much rice paper. But if we understand the adversary’s motivation, we can find a way to defeat him. Let's look at his motivation.
If he simply wanted to kill you, the hoodlum in the story would just walk up to you, unannounced, and summarily shoot you without warning. Regardless of how many years of training you have or how many arts you know, nobody will be able to defend against that! If it’s your day to die, then there’s not much you can do except die with style.
The hoodlum in the story, as well as most people who will point guns at you (as opposed to simply shooting you), are doing so for reasons of intimidation. Their objective is to place you in a position of tactical disadvantage and “bargain” with you for something they want. The bargain is typically that if you do as they say, they will not kill you. (Your money or your life is the classic line, although females often receive a modified offer). By the very fact of their intent, they provide you with the opening you need to defeat them.
Lets look at the two men in the story. A simplified view of the events: The hoodlum has the pistol pointed at the hero. The hero is surprised (I know, I know, we are always on alert. Let’s just pretend that we are having a bad day and weren’t paying attention). The hoodlum makes his demands and then "waits" for the expected compliance and response of the hero. In essence, the hoodlum is “Pause”, waiting for the “Return” of the hero. The hero can go either way at this point: comply or fight. If he understands the dynamics of human reaction time, he can come out of this quite well.
Every conflict, whether between countries or individuals is a cycle whereby each party observes the other, orients himself according to those observations, decides on a course of action, and finally puts that decision into action. This is called the OODA loop. It is the theory of conflict professed by the late Col. John Boyd.
Col. Boyd was responsible for creating many of the aerial combat tactics now employed throughout the Free World. His findings were the result of projects and studies he conducted about the success American Pilots had over their North Korean adversaries in the Asian unpleasantness of the fifties. Boyd theorized that although the North Korean pilots had certain technical advantages with their airplanes, American pilots could generally see their adversaries first due to the cockpit design of their own airplanes. They could immediately recognize them as “enemies” and decide what to do quicker because of their recognition training as well as their flight training. And the controls on the American airplanes allowed them to put those decisions into play faster than the North Koreans. This allowed them to operate a decision-action cycle that was much faster than their adversaries. Boyd theorized that, in any conflict (whether between nations or between individuals), the party that was able to go through this Observation Orientation Decision Action loop the fastest, had a remarkable advantage over the competition.
We can take this aerial combat concept and apply it very neatly to the realm of personal combat. Studies at Suarez International have determined that, even for a prepared individual, each phase of the OODA cycle takes at least 1/25th of a second. That means that you may have up to one full second to act before the other fellow even realizes what you’re doing. Even then he has to select a viable response to your actions and then employ it.
We tried this concept out with "marking cartridge" firearms. We placed two operators of comparable skill level facing each other at arm's length. Operator Number One (Aggressor) was told to “Command” his opponent to “Put his hands up”, as the thug in the story might do. Operator Number Two (Defender) was instructed that as soon as he thought he could do it, to quickly move into the first portion of a weapon disarm. The Aggressor was told that when he saw the other man move, he should fire. The Aggressor had every advantage. He had the pistol already pointed at the Defender, his finger on the trigger and the hammer was cocked (less than 3 pounds of pressure required to fire). Furthermore, he was familiar with the techniques the Defender would do, as well as the fact that he knew the Defender would not be complying! Talk about bad odds for the defender!! To make it interesting, we added the stress of the loser buying dinner!
The results were very revealing, and supported Boyd's concepts. Out of ten tries, the Defender was able to deflect the muzzle of the pistol and trap it in a single move before the Aggressor was even able to fire. Lesson learned – All things being equal, action will always beat reaction.
If we understand how to take advantage of the dynamics of human reaction time, we can implement our responses and countermeasures before the adversary has even realized what we are doing. This doesn’t require being particularly fast, or even technically proficient. All that is needed is a tactically-correct, pre-conditioned move that is simple to put to use, violent in nature, and technically correct for the situation.
With this in mind, our story could end thus.
You realize he’s holding a chrome-plated revolver in his hand.
“Hey A.. H…! I said give me your f…ing money!”
“Alright Sir, Please don’t shoot me, I’ll give you everything I have”, you reply.
Expecting you to hand him a wad of C-notes fresh from the ATM, the hoodlum’s smirk turns into an expression horror as your left hand sweeps his pistol aside as your other hand smashes wetly into his nose…once…twice…three times! He doesn’t even realize, in his watery eyed, stupor that you’ve taken his stolen handgun out of his hands and followed up with a strike to his temple. His final thoughts are unprintable as he sinks into eternal blackness.
Gabe Suarez
 
My favorite move when I studied Uechi-Ryu was the check block/circle block. It was the one thing new students could do that was instantly effective and it allowed them to block any punch they thought was coming. In time it became a first response to pretty much any incoming hand motion. It is fast and almost impossible to miss.

Unfortunately I never practiced disarms frequently enough to make taking control of the situation feasible. I am not confident that I could prevent a BG from bringing the gun back into the equation before I render him unconscious.

Everyone is probably thinking of the textbook scene from collateral. It shows how easy it is to go from the surrender position (not a weak position) to any number of things.
 
Very interesting, but I don't believe many would benefit from it. Its the same as the question of training with the firearm.

There are so many variables to this tale of derring do, it would be difficult to come to a reliable conclusion. [thinking]
 
Cross-X,

We have spoken to Mike in the past maybe we can set something up with him if the group is interested? or GOAL as a Host?

Jim C., Doug R. and I attended Warrior Talk Symposium III in Memphis this last January 2007 and had the pleasure of meeting and training with 10 amazing instructors and beleive it or not it was heavly focused on hand to hand based conflict scenerios. We all came back battered and bruised but well trained and enlightened.

The men who conducted the instruction are listed below:
Marc Denny (Stick Fighting)
Tom Sotis (Knife Fighting)
South Narc (Reading Pre-Assault Indicators)
Mike Brown (The Clinch in a Weapons Based Enviroment)
John Hearne (The OODA Cycle and Individual Tactics)
William Aprill (Hand Gun Disarms)
Trey Hudson (Personal Security/Terrorism)
and of course Hand gun Related with
Gabe Suarez (Live Fire Tactics)
Tom Givens (Low Light Tactics)
and one good class on Tactical Medical Treatment with Paul Gomez.

The 2 classes that really proved that you need to have capability in hand to hand was "The Clinch" with Mike Browns Team and Hand Gun Disarms with Mr. William Aprill. They were both in your face, taste the sweat from your adversary type classes. The Knife and Stick came in a very close second.
 
Last edited:
This is a very delicate issue, especially to be discussed on a board of this nature. The decision to use violence in a situation like was described is difficult at best and to do so unarmed makes it exponentially more so.
 
Tony D,

Sensative Reading, Yes. Heavy Opinion Yes.

Agreed there is a place and time for every topic. As I read this before I posted it, it seemed to bring to light the need to be aware of one's physical abilities and mindset. And one's action and reaction capablities.

The training needed to defend one's self is not just the gun.
 
This is something that I would say is good for someone with training and confidence and you must have the "killer" or "warrior" instinct. Not everyone has that.

we practiced several disarming drills on a regular basis with empty paintball pistols (the airsoft ones that resemble real firearms)

Everyone was able to accomplish the task of acting and disarming the BG. and the BGs were told to fight as hard as they could to take the victim out.

Even knowing that the victim was going to act, didnt help.

The main thing that we work on was doing this in the company of bysanders and making sure that they were safe too.
 
That said "The Warrior Talk Syposium 4" is being held in Memphis TN next year and is being hosted by Tom Givens of "RANGEMASTER". Gabe Suarez and Company.

Anyone who is interested in attending this meeting of the Minds, Skills and Bodies should truely consider it as a must do.

$ 200.00 for 3 days of Training (Friday - Sunday)
plus Hotel,Meals and Air Fare

It was fantastic last year and has been promised to be better in 2008.
 
That said "The Warrior Talk Syposium 4" is being held in Memphis TN next year and is being hosted by Tom Givens of "RANGEMASTER". Gabe Suarez and Company.

Anyone who is interested in attending this meeting of the Minds, Skills and Bodies should truely consider it as a must do.

$ 200.00 for 3 days of Training (Friday - Sunday)
plus Hotel,Meals and Air Fare

It was fantastic last year and has been promised to be better in 2008.

I plan on being there and truly wish I could have made this year's. I also want to make mention that some folks don't cotton to LtCol Boyd's Cycle as it relates to instantaneous life-or-death decisions any more than Hick's Law has been refuted.
 
That was a good post, and a fairly accurate assessment of what can be accomplished with a little training, but I would caution the casual reader from "trying this at home." I taught Chinese martial arts for over 20 years, and this was an exercise we tried again and again, usually using paint-ball guns.

What I found (and I don't claim it's irrefutable science) is that what Gabe wrote about does work, but matters of distance and position are critical. Run his experiment again, but have the aggressor back up a foot, and things are quite different. Run it again with an aggressor who responds with his free hand rather than shooting and you get yet another outcome. If the aggressor is standing at an angle, with his gun hand to the rear, it's another type of geometry problem. We also found that if the aggressor is told to pull back the gun hand when attacked, rather than trying to shoot right away, the odds of a successful disarm dropped to about 50/50.

A bit of training can negate most of these problems, but for the average, untrained, out-of-shape concealed weapon carrier, all it takes is a little hesitation in the face of a real shooting threat, and the BG will be taking that cash and those keys from a bleeding body on the ground.

Most of the time, for most people, it's really best to just give him the cash and keys unless an clear and obvious opening for defensive action presents itself. You can always replace things. Your health, your life, or months tied up in legal limbo are not things you can get back so easily.
 
Back
Top Bottom