Guns and drugs

TonyD

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In one of my weaker moments, I was browsing arfcom and came across this post. It came from Lew Rockwell's site but I found it interesting and just wondered what other folks thought. I'll reserve my comments until later in the thread.


*

Many opponents of gun control support the war on drugs, and many critics and reformers of America's drug laws tend to believe in gun control. Conservatives tend to fall into the first category and liberals into the second.

In reality, these two issues are more similar than many people might think.

In both cases – laws that restrict which guns people may buy, own, and carry; and laws that restrict which drugs people may buy, possess, and ingest – what we're dealing with are possession crimes: victimless offenses against the state, whereby merely having something is branded a crime and punishable by fines and imprisonment.

Both types of laws are terribly immoral, as they are affronts to basic personal liberty. In a free society, all individuals own themselves and the products of their labor and exchange, and are free to do as they wish so long as they do not commit violence and fraud against other people. Arresting, prosecuting, and incarcerating people for the weapons they choose to own or the drugs they choose to consume are immoral violations of the rights of self-ownership, and the corollary rights to control one's own body and property.

The right to self-ownership necessarily implies the right to self-defense and the right to peacefully acquire the means of self-defense. Hence, all gun control immorally violates the right to self-defense and self-ownership.

The right to self-ownership implies the right to self-medication and also the general right to decide what to put into one's own body. Either you own yourself or you do not.

Gun laws have rendered millions of Americans defenseless; and drug laws, as in the case of medical marijuana, have left thousands of cancer, AIDS, and glaucoma patients helpless without the medical benefits of their preferred treatment. The interference with the right of people to choose their own medicines and means of self-defense has been a tragic matter of life and death for all too many peaceful Americans. The most fundamental argument against drug laws and gun laws is moral: people have a right to own themselves, defend themselves, possess property, and control their own bodies. In practice, when this right is thwarted, disaster ensues.

Because of the particular nature of possession crimes, the similarities between gun control and the drug war do not end there.

Creating spies and destroying civil liberties

Possession laws are very difficult to enforce in a free society. Since no one's rights are being violated when someone owns a banned gun or smokes marijuana, there is no victim to report these "crimes" to the police and little natural incentive for third parties to report their neighbors to the authorities. Instead, the police have to actively search for the offenders, an approach that predictably leads to the destruction of other civil liberties, such as rights to privacy and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. Wiretaps, random searches and roadblocks, and spying become common.

Since few people are naturally willing to turn in their neighbors for victimless activity, the government has to create perverse incentives for people to turn in lawbreakers. The drug war and war on the Second Amendment have inspired the government to pressure teachers and pediatricians to ask children about what drugs or guns their parents might have. Drug and gun offenders are also encouraged to testify against other offenders – often-times ones who committed much more minor offenses – in exchange for lowered prison sentences. This often leads to small-time offenders getting longer sentences than the big-time dealers. Such government programs to incite tattle-telling belong in history-book chapters about the Soviet Union, but they have no place in a free society.

In addition, since victimless crime laws are difficult to enforce with due process, the burden of evidence becomes horrifically lowered. All that is needed is the presence of guns, drugs, or money alleged to have been used in illegal transactions – and, thanks to more recent changes in the laws, not even that. Often only a testimonial from someone who was offered lenient punishment by the prosecutor will do. So thousands of people who didn't even commit the crime – much less were proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt – end up in prison. Restrictions against entrapment and the planting of evidence become increasingly eroded and ignored in a legal regime that prohibits peaceful possession of contraband.

Since millions of Americans violate gun laws and drug laws, and since it would be an economic and logistic impossibility to catch and punish even most of them – nor would most Americans want to see them all punished, whereas most would probably want to see all murderers punished – the punishments against people who break these laws end up being grossly unjust and disproportionate. There are few crimes that have mandatory minimum punishments designated by the federal government, drug and gun offenses being the main ones. So we see drug offenders and gun offenders receiving prison sentences of 5, 10, 20, or even 50 years; meanwhile actual criminals who stole property or committed violence receive relatively light sentences and are released early owing to prison overcrowding. Federal prisoners convicted of violating drug and firearms laws receive longer sentences, on average, than criminals convicted of sexual abuse, assault, manslaughter, burglary, or theft. This is a horrifying injustice, but it is inevitable, once it is illegal to do something peaceful that people want to do.

Black markets and violence

Of course, the drug war and gun control have led to huge black markets in drugs and guns. With millions of potential customers, people who enter the illegal businesses are people who are likely to take risks and perhaps break laws in other ways. Without the legal mechanisms of arbitration, disputes are often settled with violence. The more money spent on enforcement, the more lucrative and risky the business, and the more violence results. Economists have estimated that the drug war increases homicides by as much as 50 percent, and the Justice Department has estimated that 2 million crimes are stopped every year by private gun ownership. Few policies would cut down on crime more than ending the drug war and repealing America's gun laws.

The violence caused by gun control and the drug war leads, predictably, to more government spending, more draconian laws and enforcement, and yet more crime and violence. The black-market money also leads to incredible corruption in the police and judicial systems. Bribes become commonplace, and in some places the line between organized crime and the police departments becomes dangerously blurred.

The massive amounts of money in black markets have also inspired the advent of asset forfeiture – an un-American, unconstitutional assault on liberty and property rights whereby the government can confiscate property that is suspected to be involved in these "crimes," even if no one is formally accused. (In 80 percent of the cases, no one is actually accused.) This has led to more police corruption, with departments and even individual law enforcers having a twisted incentive to confiscate as much property as they can to line their coffers and pockets. Asset forfeiture has mainly been rationalized as a gun-control and drug-war measure, but it has become a monstrosity of its own, leading to such atrocities as the killing of Don Scott, a millionaire slain by L.A. County Sheriff's Department agents who raided his Malibu home in the middle of the night, supposedly looking for marijuana, suspiciously shortly after Scott refused to sell his valuable land to the government. The Ventura County D.A. concluded that the agents were motivated by the prospect of using asset forfeiture to seize the land he refused to sell.

The vast black-market money in drugs and guns has also spawned more victimless-crime laws against "money laundering." In a free society, people would be free to do with their property what they wish, so long as they don't commit violence. This would include transferring it, or moving it out of the country. This too has become heavily regulated by the government, thanks mainly to the impossibility of succeeding in the wars against guns and drugs.

The elevated crime associated with the black markets in guns and drugs has, predictably, led to more laws against guns and drugs. Instead of punishing the crimes themselves – and, ideally, ending the prohibitions that foster such crimes – politicians have focused on guns and drugs as if these inanimate objects were the root causes of gang violence. Without the drug war and its corresponding crime, the motivation for supporting gun control would be much weaker. Without the drug war and its legacy of attacks on the Bill of Rights, proposals to further attack the Second Amendment would be without many of their most important precedents.

Drug and gun prohibition

The relationship between drug prohibition and gun control goes way back: the organized crime of Al Capone and the Mafia, which flourished as a result of alcohol prohibition, was the inspiration and rationale for the first major federal gun control, the National Firearms Act of 1934. It is interesting to note that instead of convicting Al Capone for either breaking laws against liquor or the actual commission of violence, the government used tax laws, and then proceeded to find ways to ban the firearms used by organized crime. Instead of addressing the violence – which is hard to do when a vibrant prohibition-caused black market corrupts the justice system and amplifies violent crime – the government created more crimes out of peaceful behavior, which only made the problem worse, in the long run. Bad laws beget more bad laws.

Three years after passing the National Firearms Act, the federal government passed the most sweeping national drug law since alcohol prohibition, the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937, followed a year later by the Federal Firearms Act of 1938. Politicians stretched the Commerce Clause of the Constitution to pass both of these blatantly unconstitutional laws.

Particularly egregious are today's laws that connect guns and drugs and punish people worse for possession of both than for the sum of each. Even the otherwise legal possession of a gun during the commission of a drug "crime" carries a federal five-year mandatory minimum sentence. Sometimes, sentences are doubled. And when drug offenders are released on parole or probation, they are often stripped completely of their right to keep and bear arms. This atrocious assault on the basic human right of drug offenders released from prison has gotten precious little attention, partly because many supporters of gun rights are not sympathetic toward drug offenders, and many drug-war reformers are all too apathetic about gun-ownership rights.

As long as gun-rights advocates don't see the direct threat to all our civil and financial liberties that inevitably follow from the drug war – and as long as opponents of the drug war fail to understand the evils that predictably come from a war on guns – Americans will continue to see their priceless liberties steadily stripped away by both programs, in all their unconstitutionality and immorality.

If proponents of civil liberties, on the other hand, become more principled in their opposition to overbearing government laws against possession – or, more ideally, if they come to embrace the moral rights of all individuals to own weapons to protect their lives, families, and property and of all persons to possess and ingest what they wish – we can unite against both kinds of oppression, and have a fighting chance of restoring two of the most fundamental freedoms we have tragically lost in this country over the last hundred years. And because of the way these freedoms relate inextricably to so many others that affect all Americans, and because of their connection to violent crime, restoring the right to bear arms and ending the drug war would result in one of the greatest revivals of liberty and civility in the history of America.

www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory76.html
 
Hell of an article...lots of things to chew over. There's a lot in common with helmet/seatbelt laws (which, even though I always wear my helmet and my seatbelt, I feel are ridiculous and a violation of my rights), especially when he writes:

In a free society, all individuals own themselves and the products of their labor and exchange, and are free to do as they wish so long as they do not commit violence and fraud against other people.

This is one of those things that reminds me that I need to stop focusing so much on labels and "us versus them" in the world of politics and focus more on defending universal rights, as drafted by our founding fathers in the Bill of Rights. The trick is finding people from all sides of the political spectrum and getting them to stop yelling/berating/ignoring one another long enough to find common ground, because there are bound to be topics where views overlap (just as there are bound to be topics where there will never be any compromise).

I think the divisiveness and "us versus them" attitude amongst the people is one of the prime reasons why our supposed "representatives" feel so comfortable sneaking their rights-stealing laws through the process. If everyone's so busy yelling at one another over one thing, there's no reason not to sneak a National ID bill through without so much as a debate (by was of a "for example", since I just posted on that a moment ago).

A unified populace has got to be their worst nightmare. I have a feeling that they're probably pretty safe, however, as a unified populace seems more and more unlikely daily. Nowadays it seems folks don't care what a person's views on a subject are, and instead dismiss them as "crazy liberal" or "right-wing nut" and give no merit to their thoughts once the label has been applied.

That being said, I'm going to keep my cards close to my chest re: the Drug War. Suffice it to say that I believe the drug war is and always has been unwinnable (please do not make assumptions about my views on illicit drugs in general by this statement). Prior to reading this article, I hadn't compared the anti-gun movement with the war on drugs, but this person brings up a lot of very intriguing and, in a lot of cases, valid arguments (IMO).
 
The author of that post espouses a fundamentally libertarian viewpoint with which I am inclined to agree. In the words of Joe Bob Briggs, the ultimate drive-in movie critic, "I support the right of people to put anything in their own mouths, no matter how disgusting."
 
I'm pretty much a libertarian myself. (I find it hard to take that seriously those economists who aren't.) While I'm not in tune with the people who show up on the Boston common every year advocating for marijuana as the cure for most of the world's ills, it should be obvious to anyone with an IQ above freezing that the war on (some) drugs is a perfect example of the fact that there are few problems that can't be made much, much worse by the government trying to fix them.

As for drugs themselves, Frank Zappa had it right:
A drug is not bad. A drug is a chemical compound. The problem comes in when people who take drugs treat them like a licence to behave
like an a**h***.
Without saying anything about how well informed my choices might be, I'll have to say that my drug of choice is a good single malt Scotch, though Old Number 7 is a more than adequate economy substitute.

Ken
 
Well...those of you who've read my posts (and there's a couple of them [lol] ) should know where I stand on this. (thanks for posting it Tony). I'm a Constitutional Conservative. As long as no one harms anyone else with what they do - let them do it. Passing laws that make anything illegal (except for aliens, but that's another thread) only keep law enforcement folks employed. Now, I don't have any problems with them getting pay checks, but I DO have major problems with the interferrence of our government in my life. If I want to own an Uzi, so be it. If I want to pollute my body with chemicals, (which I don't), then so be it. It's called personal responsibility, and if I step over the line of said responsibility, then I should have the book and other assorted objects thrown at me.

I'm sick of being protected from myself by our great and glorius legicritters who probably break half of the laws themselves.
 
Well, that's pretty much the responses that I thought I'd see here.
On the 'other' board, most replies were filled with emotion and construing the article into something it wasn't to begin with.

The point of the argument had nothing to do with advocating drug use, simply that it is unConstitutional for the gov't to regulate what an individual may or may not pocess as personal property or what they can do to their own person. The author compares the same illegality of some of you not being able to pocess a rifle with a bayo lug, or normal capacity magazines.

It also illustrates how new and more intrusive laws have been passed (or circumvented, depending on how you look at it) in the name of the 'war on drugs' that can be used against anyone. Like using military assets against its own citizens.

The war on drugs has created huge organized crime structures not seen since when? You guessed it, Prohibition and Al Capone. Isn't this one of those doomed to repeat history things?

Who's the biggest losers if certain drugs were lagalized, manufacture-controlled, and regulated? The politicians running on certain platforms. The departments that could no longer justify huge budgets. The nations domestic-military forces (all those alphabet soup agencies) that would have one less reason to terrorize, and criminalize, the citizens. Jails and prisons would immediately see an ease to overcrowding, etc, etc.

It hasn't been THAT long ago that I was member of the 'blue team' and a member of ERT. I've been involved in several drug busts with nary a second thought. It was by God illegal and that's all there was to it. LEO's should SERVE the people, PROTECT the people, and keep the peace. Not be an armed enforcement agency for policy. I guess I've just come to question what is and is not truly legal.

Enough ranting.
 
TonyD said:
Well, that's pretty much the responses that I thought I'd see here.
On the 'other' board, most replies were filled with emotion and construing the article into something it wasn't to begin with.

The point of the argument had nothing to do with advocating drug use, simply that it is unConstitutional for the gov't to regulate what an individual may or may not pocess as personal property or what they can do to their own person. The author compares the same illegality of some of you not being able to pocess a rifle with a bayo lug, or normal capacity magazines.

It also illustrates how new and more intrusive laws have been passed (or circumvented, depending on how you look at it) in the name of the 'war on drugs' that can be used against anyone. Like using military assets against its own citizens.

The war on drugs has created huge organized crime structures not seen since when? You guessed it, Prohibition and Al Capone. Isn't this one of those doomed to repeat history things?

Who's the biggest losers if certain drugs were lagalized, manufacture-controlled, and regulated? The politicians running on certain platforms. The departments that could no longer justify huge budgets. The nations domestic-military forces (all those alphabet soup agencies) that would have one less reason to terrorize, and criminalize, the citizens. Jails and prisons would immediately see an ease to overcrowding, etc, etc.

It hasn't been THAT long ago that I was member of the 'blue team' and a member of ERT. I've been involved in several drug busts with nary a second thought. It was by God illegal and that's all there was to it. LEO's should SERVE the people, PROTECT the people, and keep the peace. Not be an armed enforcement agency for policy. I guess I've just come to question what is and is not truly legal.

Enough ranting.

Good looks AND a brain. :D
 
Good article. hard not to be a free thinking American and not like the Libertarians. Their drug policy is a bit like the 1st ammendment : You do actually have the right to be with and say things that are unpopular. Even if you are an a**h***. Sort of like I have the right to call Ted kennedy a fat drooling walrus who will not be missed when his time here is over. ( I always like to mention this POS whenever i get the chance ).

If they could just get over the "open Border" issue , I think they would grow faster.They are for wide open borders , with the caveat that a new immigrant will find Zero free stuff. No Medical , no housing , no welfare , no food stamps , work and pay or starve. I believed in it until Sept 11. Now They need to modify this in the face of people who want to kill us in mass numbers because we aren't like them.
 
Of course under the policies the libertarians support, there never would have been a 9/11, open boarders or not. Under the current system, planes are like schools: places where the government spends a lot of our tax money to make sure that all good guys are disarmed. Back when I first started flying, nobody made any stink made either crew or passengers carrying guns onto commercial flights. If it's a dumb idea to bring a knife to a gun fight, how much dumber would it be to go up against a couple dozen Glocks, Smiths and Kimbers with a few boxcutters?

Ken
 
Very interesting initial post to this thread. I hadn't really compared the two "wars" in the way that the quoted poster did.

Personally, I think that if we want to "win" the "war on drugs", it can be done easily... instead of banning all drugs, legalize them and mandate certain quality restrictions. If they're available legally, then there's no need for pushers, smugglers, and multiple other types of thugs. And the money that we throw at enforcement can be use to establish programs to wean addicts off of whatever drugs that they want to quit.

As for guns... my presence here should be some kind of indication where I stand on that. :D If my friend Harvey hadn't been disarmed by his employer, he might still be alive today... instead of getting gunned down by an ex-con paroled for armed robbery less than 3 months previously. For a freakin' BUS TRANSFER. Harv's boss at the NY transit authority had less than a week before told Harv to stop carrying his black-powder revolver (NYC, remember... all modern arms are pretty much banned. Unless you're a rich celebrity). But I'm not bitter. :( Much.

Sorry... didn't mean to rant about that.

Ross
 
KMaurer said:
Of course under the policies the libertarians support, there never would have been a 9/11, open boarders or not. Under the current system, planes are like schools: places where the government spends a lot of our tax money to make sure that all good guys are disarmed. Back when I first started flying, nobody made any stink made either crew or passengers carrying guns onto commercial flights. If it's a dumb idea to bring a knife to a gun fight, how much dumber would it be to go up against a couple dozen Glocks, Smiths and Kimbers with a few boxcutters?

Ken
You are right. I didn't think it out far enough. A Libertarian America wouldn't have the crew at Logan doing security now , or then either. We'd have private security along the lines of Israeli Air. There is a reason NONE of their planes have ever been hijacked.
 
Here's another thoughtful piece on the subject.

Check out the LEAP site if you haven't and watch the ~20-min promo video - it's an eyeopener.

In the wake of the urban shootings in Boston and their ties to gang activity, it is interesting to think that the gangs exist primarily because of the black market for drugs. LEAP draws explicit analogies between alcohol prohibition and drug prohibition. I tend to think that the Mayor should be harping about our drug policy rather than "the flow of illegal guns," which has rapidly become one of the most nauseating phrases in use today.

Eliminate the profit motive, and violence will subside.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/news/opinion/guests/437629,211GUC1.article

http://leap.cc/
 
All respect to cops, one of the biggest unintended consequences of the WoD is the para-militarization of the police forces. I mean, can someone explain to me why quiet town Hudson, MA needs M-4's in the back of cruisers? Seriously. If you want to jock up and shoot folks, stay in the .mil and out of police work.
 
All respect to cops, one of the biggest unintended consequences of the WoD is the para-militarization of the police forces.

Interesting observation. I wonder what our police forces would look like today if Nixon never declared this "war."
 
I don't care how legal the drugs are.
Drug use problems span from retarded emotional growth to schizophrenic triggers, and insane/pissed-off people cause guns to be needed.

People compare guns with automobiles and all sorts of other things. Guns are only guns. Any time they are compared with something in an effort to either prove or disprove, there exists an argument in the logic somewhere.
My thoughts are that comparisons are not a good way to argue a point for me to be inclined to believe it.
 
All respect to cops, one of the biggest unintended consequences of the WoD is the para-militarization of the police forces. I mean, can someone explain to me why quiet town Hudson, MA needs M-4's in the back of cruisers? Seriously. If you want to jock up and shoot folks, stay in the .mil and out of police work.

IMO every LEO in america should have an M4 in their trunk and know how to
use it. I'm not offended by that premise at all... just as long as I'm allowed
to have the same damned thing in MY trunk!

-Mike
 
I don't care how legal the drugs are.
Drug use problems span from retarded emotional growth to schizophrenic triggers, and insane/pissed-off people cause guns to be needed.
If drugs are decriminalized, we as a society will actually need far less guns than the current WoD requires.

People compare guns with automobiles and all sorts of other things. Guns are only guns. Any time they are compared with something in an effort to either prove or disprove, there exists an argument in the logic somewhere.
My thoughts are that comparisons are not a good way to argue a point for me to be inclined to believe it.

Guns are not compared to drugs here. The theory is that the reason there is so much gang violence is because of the drug black market, and that if there were no such market, there would therefore be far less gang activity, and therefore far less gun-grabbing rhetoric and sentiment and legislation.
 
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I don't care how legal the drugs are.
Drug use problems span from retarded emotional growth to schizophrenic triggers, and insane/pissed-off people cause guns to be needed.

If an emotionally retarded schizophrenic drug user had a gun, he'd trade it for drugs.

The drug users are not going around shooting people; the drug dealers are; and most of the people they shoot are rivals or bystanders near the rivals.

If drugs were legalized, it would instantaneously remove almost all of the profit motive and many of these formal and informal criminal organizations would cease to exist. Once the gov't took over the recreational drug business, there's just not any other big enough illegal market to exploit.
 
Wow! Interesting thread and in sharp contrast to other threads on other gunboards I've read. It's been a long-held belief of mine to decriminalize drugs completely - a belief which alienated me from my Conservative friends when I lived in Ohio, (though many of these same folks thought nothing about crossing over to WVA and buying illegal moonshine). Even at a young age, I was bewildered by the "War On Drugs" and wondered how much more effective the money could be spent on treatment rather than enforcement.

The contrast of a couple of decades is something. As a teenager in The Buckey State, being pulled over with an ounce or less of green bud got it dumped out on the side of the road and rarely a small fine, (ask me how I know). Now? It's clear that enforcement, (especially on the user end) is a losing battle and enforcement on the supply side is much the same. Jails are packed to capacity, we're footing the bill, gangs are getting stronger, we're footing the bill, enforcement is getting more costly, we're footing the bill. My views may be flawed, (many are), but if we redirected our law enforcement and court system to illegal immigration and gang/terrorist activity, (notice how I used gangs and terrorists in the same vein) and left end-users to their own devices, (offering treatment over jail) - it may be a good place to start. This of course in my opinion is short of total legalization - which I support, but think is a long way off.

Hell, we can't even get hemp legalized. Why is this? Do people really think hemp and Ohio Creeper Weed are the same thing? Or is it lobbyists, big business and paper companies keeping hemp farming off the charts? Could the same be held true for drugs as well? Imagine a farmer who has 80-acres to farm. Imagine he can plant a crop which can produce more stationery, toilet paper, linen, cardboard, rope, twine, pencils, etc in a year than the same guy with 80 acres of trees. This, plus the fact that it's produced annually on the same land with out the need to rotate crops. Why isn't this legal? Imagine solely from a paper standpoint, how much stationery could be produced over 20-years on that 80-acres as opposed to 80-acres of trees and at less of an environmental impact.

I know I've drifted off the drugs, but the hemp issue speaks to me about a lot of backroom politics at the expense of the rest of us. Legalizing, hemp makes sense to most people, yet it's not being done. I view legalizing and regulating drugs in the same way - there's more to it than sensibility.
 
IMO every LEO in america should have an M4 in their trunk and know how to
use it. I'm not offended by that premise at all... just as long as I'm allowed
to have the same damned thing in MY trunk!

-Mike

The likelihood of that happening in this state is slim to none.
 
I still don't believe any of it.
My thought is that if drugs are decriminalized, everything will still stay the same except for the police enforcement of the drug laws.
People won't apply for drug purveyor licenses and pay their taxes for selling drugs. They will just sell it the way they've always done and count their cash.
The real problem is that many low income and low intelligence people are addicted to controversy and always feel that they are being slighted by someone else, whether it's the neighbor or the landlord or the boss, or whoever. These are the people that when they do drugs and get into mischief, they blame their circumstances on some reason why they are right and the argument against them is always wrong.
Drugs improve a person's propensity towards mischief and violence through lack of self awareness. A person may have total responsibility for their own use of drugs, but the effect is that of non responsibility.
Gangsters shoot each other for all sorts of reasons that are not related to the threat of being sent to jail or business competition.
 
I still don't believe any of it.
My thought is that if drugs are decriminalized, everything will still stay the same except for the police enforcement of the drug laws.
People won't apply for drug purveyor licenses and pay their taxes for selling drugs. They will just sell it the way they've always done and count their cash.
The real problem is that many low income and low intelligence people are addicted to controversy and always feel that they are being slighted by someone else, whether it's the neighbor or the landlord or the boss, or whoever. These are the people that when they do drugs and get into mischief, they blame their circumstances on some reason why they are right and the argument against them is always wrong.
Drugs improve a person's propensity towards mischief and violence through lack of self awareness. A person may have total responsibility for their own use of drugs, but the effect is that of non responsibility.
Gangsters shoot each other for all sorts of reasons that are not related to the threat of being sent to jail or business competition.

Then why isn't bootlegging more profitable? Why aren't the WVA bootleggers I used to frequent as a teenager driving Porche's? Do your views on people "doing drugs and getting into mischief" apply to those who consume legal alcohol as well? Lastly, if I can grow some killer green bud next to my tomatoes in the garden, or buy a gram of chinese green hasish or an 8-ball of peruvian flake at the local packy, what would then be my motivation to frequent a drug dealer? Wouldn't they be ultimately relegated to "bootlegger status"?
 
I still don't believe any of it.
My thought is that if drugs are decriminalized, everything will still stay the same except for the police enforcement of the drug laws.
People won't apply for drug purveyor licenses and pay their taxes for selling drugs.

Yeah, but you don't get it- the whole point of people selling drugs is to make
huge markups based on the "risk" costs involved in the business. Once that
risk element is gone, the incentive for many to sell the drugs pretty much
goes out the window. (Most people sell drugs because the profit margins are
very high, for moving a relatively small amount of product. ) You might
see some opportunists here and there selling things to circumvent whatever
government BS is left, but it's not going to be anywhere near the same
magnitude of the problems we currently have.

I agree with MassMark on this.... after deregulation most of the black
marketeers of drugs would be relegated to moonshiner status, at
best. There will still be some opportunists out there (especially if there
are still some limp-wristed regulations left around) but the black market
will pretty much collapse. Most of the profits made are due to assumed
risk and very long supply chains. Even just by shortening the supply
chain the end-user cost of the product is going to go WAY down. This
gets rid of the org. crime problem and the sidecrime issue all at
once.

-Mike
 
The likelihood of that happening in this state is slim to none.

Well, the current reality is that most LE orgs only issue semiautomatic rifles
(more like an M4Gery) that aren't much different than the ones we can buy.
Very few have real fully automatic weapons at their disposal. And even
if they all did, I still wouldn't be that bent out of shape, although I would still
prefer parity for obvious reasons. (Being denied FA is a deprivation of
constitutional rights.) That aside for the moment, at a minimum it will make
it so that the f'ing media can't whine about how the criminals outgun the
police (and the obvious hue and cry for more gun laws, after an event where
a LEO shows up to a criminal gunning down people and has to deal
with that threat with an inappropriate tool). The benefits of LEOs
having, and knowing how to use a patrol rifle outweigh any percieved
detriment. It's also easily arguable that there are tangible side benefits to
deployment of a rifle when possible... eg, if a traffic stop goes bad, a LEO's
partner with a rifle may be able to dispense far less lead into the air to stop
the threat; thus reducing the danger to the general public, etc.

We can either sit around blaming the guns (just like antis do) or perhaps
analyze the real problem, which is either misuse or abuse of power by the
government or its designated agents/arbiters of said power. After all, is a
LEO having an MP5 in his/her car really a problem, in and of itself? No, it's
not.... most problems in LE are the direct result of legislators giving LEOs
too wide of a scope with regards to laws that need to be enforced.... if
LEOs only had to deal with the basics (eg, crimes against another person,
or blatantly obvious public safety problems) then all the yammering about
"paramilitary drug raids" and the like would virtually cease to exist. Less
people getting arrested for stupid shit = less animosity between LE and the
public, it's that simple.


-Mike
 
Then why isn't bootlegging more profitable? Why aren't the WVA bootleggers I used to frequent as a teenager driving Porche's? Do your views on people "doing drugs and getting into mischief" apply to those who consume legal alcohol as well? Lastly, if I can grow some killer green bud next to my tomatoes in the garden, or buy a gram of chinese green hasish or an 8-ball of peruvian flake at the local packy, what would then be my motivation to frequent a drug dealer? Wouldn't they be ultimately relegated to "bootlegger status"?

+1000...
 
I'm reading where the discussion has gone, and it seems a little like we devolved into whether drugs should be decriminalized or not. I intended to resurrect this thread because as gun owners, I am suggesting that we take a decriminalization stance, to protect our gun freedoms. It's a little misdirectional.

I am not a fan of drug use or abuse. I don't relish the idea of folks getting high or tripping or whatever they call it. I especially would be concerned about the opiates, which are just scary. But if we cannot find a better way to solve this problem than the War on Drugs, then we should just decriminalize drugs. It requires something more creative than what we've been doing for 30 years.

And all the while, as our government continues the War experiment, as it fails, the bloodshed frightens us. Rightly so, it is frightening. It is barbaric. And I don't blame the antis for seeing guns as the barbaric weapons being used by the barbarians, and thinking that maybe we can strip them of their weapons and they'll be less dangerous. It is wrong, but it is understandable. These people have been fleeced into trusting the government in the war it prosecutes against drugs. It thinks the war is the right policy because they trust the government, because they want to trust the government. But the government has let them down. The government has lied. But because they are ignorant, they believe that the war on drugs is a given, that it is a non-negotiable, but it isn't. The non-negotiable is the 2nd Amendment. But the government has fleeced a whole raft of people into thinking that the 2nd Amendment is negotiable, while the war on drugs is not. It is backwards and offensive and preposterous. And it is not a spurious relationship, this "drugs and guns" topic. It is directly connected. The war on drugs drives the street value of drugs through the roof. Those tempted by the big profits are by definition criminals. The criminals organize in order to exploit the profit potential. Part of doing business is dealing harshly with rivals. Guns are effective at doling out the harsh treatment. Ignorant civilians only see the guns, so they call for "reasonable regulation" or outright banning of guns. Oppressive (at worst) to ignorant (at best) politicians encourage this sentiment, ignoring the blatant unconstitutionality of it.

Quit the war on drugs! We don't even have to decriminalize drugs. We can just quit the war. Quit active enforcement of drug prohibition. Quit all the undercover operations. Just quit. If someone flagrantly breaks the law, then prosecute them. But don't go looking for it. This is what drives the prices for drugs. Other nations have pretty much the same laws we do, but they don't give these laws special treatment over others. Just like other laws, when it becomes apparent they have been broken, they are enforced. The prices have risen so high that there is big money in it, for those lucky enough and brutal enough to do what it takes to collect the profits.

It could very well be that we are beyond simply deescalating the war. Deescalation may simply remove the barriers to these existing drug syndicates becoming all powerful. Instead, we may have to actively manage the decriminalization process. We may have to intervene in the market, we may have to grant contracts to pharmaceutical companies, we may have to pave the way for mainstream companies to supply the demand, and offer protection from the thugs that rule the market today.

All this will take the heat off the 2nd Amendment. We on this board know that the problem isn't guns. This is a theory about what the problem is. It is the war on drugs.
 
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