Gun Ignorance from John Farnam

[Jaxon]

It was also mentioned that she may need to know the caliber of gun in case additional ammo is needed...well to that I will say the same thing I have told officers who ask about on-scene "mag interchangablity/swaps"...they just had 40 shots to get the job done, and didn't, why should you give them your ammo

And on that we agree.

 

[GSG]

I'm sorry, but while I can't speak for any cops today, I can speak for most of the ones I knew and worked with "back in the day" and I call BS on this.

Cops get discouraged cause another buys the farm? Seriously? Then perhaps they should choose another career.

I can't speak for any cops except the ones who I've talked to who personally knew and knew of the officer I mentioned, local to that area. Many of those ones were discouraged against spending extra hours on the range after he died the way he did, as I said, because he devoted many hours to extra shooting time, and still wound up dead. That's in their eyes, I wasn't trying to speak for all cops.

 

[Jaxon]

I can't speak for any cops except the ones who I've talked to who personally knew and knew of the officer I mentioned, local to that area. Many of those ones were discouraged against spending extra hours on the range after he died the way he did, as I said, because he devoted many hours to extra shooting time, and still wound up dead. That's in their eyes, I wasn't trying to speak for all cops.

Shooting is a mind set. And shooting another person is definitely a developed mindset. In this line of work, the chance to shoot or be shot exists. Maybe the probability isn't high, but it does exist. Working to better yourself so that your odds of surviving/winning seems to be an obvious choice. The attitude above will certainly be detremental to them in the long run if they continue in this field.

So sad...

 

[law dawg]

This brings up the question of what defines whether or not an individual is competent with a firearm. I'm thinking about my time in the Marines, and I can confidently say that your average (non-0311) Marine doesn't know a whole heck of a lot about firearms, at least not compared to your average "gun guy". A lot of Marines I knew didn't really know exactly what 5.56 meant and had no clue what sort of ammo they used, other than it was painted green on the tip. I remember one instance while deployed where I walked into the COC in the morning and the 3rd watch was having an argument over how many times the rifling went around in the barrel. They were holding the barrels up to lights and trying to count. No one, enlisted or officer, had ever heard the phrase "twist rate" and I actually had to explain it to everyone. Even I didn't know nearly as much about firearms when I was on active duty than I do now that I've been a NES member for awhile, and I was considered the "gun nut" of my platoon because I had a real LTC.

Now, that being said, only 2 or 3 guys in my platoon didn't consistently shoot expert on the range. All of us has been through shoot houses and combat marksmanship training and force-on-force with simunitions and all sorts of other training. We all knew a great deal about how to use our issued weapons, and performed very well with them. So I guess a good summary question would be, if you can safely and accurately employ your issued firearm, does it really matter if you don't know that 5.56 is a metric measurement and .223 isn't?

Absolutely not. You don't need to know a lot about a hammer in order to pound nails. It does, however, behoove one to know the kind of nail being driven, there being a significant difference between a finishing nail and a common one.

She should know what caliber she's shooting. She doesn't have to be an armorer or anything, but she should know what type weapon she's using.

 

[law dawg]

I can't speak for any cops except the ones who I've talked to who personally knew and knew of the officer I mentioned, local to that area. Many of those ones were discouraged against spending extra hours on the range after he died the way he did, as I said, because he devoted many hours to extra shooting time, and still wound up dead. That's in their eyes, I wasn't trying to speak for all cops.

The difference between punching holes in paper and shooting someone is the difference between hitting the heavy bag in the gym versus actually fighting in the ring. One is tool development and one is the real deal. The problem with most shooters is that they think range time is all they need to handle the real deal and it very much isn't.

 

[M1911]

i'm not, nor have i ever been, but you seem pretty set on justifying the professional negligence of this particular officer.

Once again, you (and many other folks) seem to be consistently misreading my posts.

I am not defending this officer. I am not justifying her negligence. I'm not saying she is trained appropriately. She is dangerous to herself and others. She is unprofessional.

But please read my posts again. Many here are responding to what they thought I wrote, not to what I actually wrote.

As bad as her lack of gun skills are, I agree with pbearperry, who posted:

People find it hard to believe but good driving skills will keep a cop alive more than good shooting skills. Police work is much different than what you see on TV. Also fitness and good fighting skills.

Most cops retire without ever having been in a gunfight. But they've probably all driven a cruiser fast. More cops die from traffic accidents than from gun fights.

 

[KMaurer]

The difference between punching holes in paper and shooting someone is the difference between hitting the heavy bag in the gym versus actually fighting in the ring. One is tool development and one is the real deal. The problem with most shooters is that they think range time is all they need to handle the real deal and it very much isn't.

Another significant problem is the people who know (or at least have been told) that the two are very different animals, and therefore don't bother practicing, since (after all) it's not the real thing.

Ken

 

[Jaxon]

Most cops retire without ever having been in a gunfight. But they've probably all driven a cruiser fast. More cops die from traffic accidents than from gun fights.

Had this been a thread about a lack of driving skills, then yours and pbearperry's would have had some merit.

But that isn't the point of this thread. At all. The point of the thread is gun expertise, or even basic knowledge, which this officer is blatantly lacking, to the point of being dangerous to damn near everyone around her.

I fail to see how or why you can't distinguish between the two.

 

[M1911]

...which this officer is blatantly lacking, to the point of being dangerous to damn near everyone around her.

And, of course, nothing I've written disagrees with you on this. But you seem insistent about getting into a fight over the fact that we are, actually, in violent agreement on this.

 

[Jaxon]

And, of course, nothing I've written disagrees with you on this. But you seem insistent about getting into a fight over the fact that we are, actually, in violent agreement on this.

Not at all. I'm just trying keeping the focus of the thread on topic and discussing what was actually posted and not diverting it to another unrelated topic.

You can start another post about bad driving skills, this one seems to have stalled.

 

[law dawg]

Another significant problem is the people who know (or at least have been told) that the two are very different animals, and therefore don't bother practicing, since (after all) it's not the real thing.

Ken

I will agree here. The answer is more diverse training, not neglecting tool development training. A boxer doesn't just train on the heavy bag (tool development), he also spars (closer to real fight). You add training, not subtract.

 

[GSG]

And shooting another person is definitely a developed mindset.

I agree with you 100%.

The difference between punching holes in paper and shooting someone is the difference between hitting the heavy bag in the gym versus actually fighting in the ring. One is tool development and one is the real deal. The problem with most shooters is that they think range time is all they need to handle the real deal and it very much isn't.

+1

 

[GunGrey]

Shooting is a mind set. And shooting another person is definitely a developed mindset. In this line of work, the chance to shoot or be shot exists. Maybe the probability isn't high, but it does exist. Working to better yourself so that your odds of surviving/winning seems to be an obvious choice. The attitude above will certainly be detremental to them in the long run if they continue in this field.

So sad...

Hey come on down to springfield and ask these gang banging scum bags how different it is to shoot at paper than at another person. the answer you will probably get would go like this " yea that foo tried to be up on my turff so i took out my fortay and blasted that sucker, punk A*& mo&^%# FU&^$%

 

[Jaxon]

Hey come on down to springfield and ask these gang banging scum bags how different it is to shoot at paper than at another person. the answer you will probably get would go like this " yea that foo tried to be up on my turff so i took out my fortay and blasted that sucker, punk A*& mo&^%# FU&^$%

Well, yes socio-paths always have a different mind-set. I was referring to ordinary/regular people.

 

[Porkey]

At roll call I did a weapon inspection, 2 of the 20 weapons inspected had not been removed from their holster in a year. Bullets had "Green" on the copper.
Officers were assigned to range duty cleaning long-guns.

 

[JimConway]

I started this thread by quoting a piece by John Farnam, who is an active LEO and a fine trainer.
As a side light to this discussion, Mike and I spent a couple of days at the SHOT Show with a member of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department who is also one of their Firearms instructors. Both Mike and I came away impressed with the quality of training that they receive on an ongoing basis. The training that they get is very up to date, in terms of technique and tactics. Bravo!!! Another Department that is doing a great job

 

[vicpinto]

Would you pay a carpenter who didn't know if his Bostich needed 3" framing nails or 1" finish nails?

Would you fly in a plane if the pilots didn't know where the gear down lever is?

This attitude of giving them a break is ridiculuous. Learn ALL the aspects of your job or, get a new one. That's how it works in the real world.

 

[GSG]

Would you fly in a plane if the pilots didn't know where the gear down lever is?

This attitude of giving them a break is ridiculuous. Learn ALL the aspects of your job or, get a new one. That's how it works in the real world.

What kind of thermostat does the engine on your company vehicle use?