Gold and silver prices are down

[Kevin_NH]

Bars in cards are nice too.

They are nice, if kind of boring -- but new issue has good authentication features (e.g. PAMP Veriscan) and a lower premium than a fancy coin.

I would only add - buy coins that you want to own - maybe even coins that you’d be proud to bequeath.

Just don't expect your descendants to value them the same way you do, and if they're less obviously valuable them make sure they're stored and labeled appropriately.

Another good reason to consider coins -- it's easier to get insurance coverage on collectible coins than on non-numismatic bullion.

Yeah maybe it didn’t come across in my post but that was why I didn’t just say “weight” but said “purity and weight”
1lb of 99.99999% silver is worth roughly the same as 2lb of 50.00% silver.
Weight on a scale is only relevant If the purity is known.

Agreed. I suppose there is a lower bound, a ton of assayed silver-bearing ore will be difficult to sell based on the silver content

 

[Varmint]

Retail silver is so expensive right now that I would buy PSLV or even SLV instead of paying $35-40 for a silver Eagle worth $27. The mints will catch up with demand eventually, then you can sell your PSLV and buy coins.

If you want leverage to silver buy SILJ, silver miner ETF. If silver goes to $35 it’ll double.

And if silver goes to $18 it’ll get cut in half.

 

[DJBrad]

If you are buying physical metal for the purpose of holding metal, I would recommend going with whatever you can get with an eye to minimizing the:

1. Premium paid over the current spot price
2. Likelihood of being fake

Maple leaf and Eagles are both the most popular and highest premium bullion coins in North America and also the most commonly encountered fakes.

If you're not looking for fancy proofs and slabbed (graded) coins, you might prefer 22k over "pure" gold, so you can actually stack your stack and hear the "clink".

Why not pure? Because "pure" coins are more prone to damage than their ~90-92.5% pure alloy counterparts. If you're paying a premium for pristine uncirculated eagles, you're not going to want to damage them by playing Scrooge McDuck.


The consumer resale market is driven purely by the amount of precious metal contained, if the coin contains 1 troy ounce of gold and a bit of base metal alloy, then it won't be worth less than a maple leaf which is labeled as .99999 fine gold.

This does get a little more complicated when you start talking about "melt value" and silver, where there is much more of a market for buying "junk" and melting it down.

Interesting article. I’m not familiar with selling any coins myself so I have no experience except as a net buyer

 

[Varmint]

They are nice, if kind of boring -- but new issue has good authentication features (e.g. PAMP Veriscan) and a lower premium than a fancy coin.


Just don't expect your descendants to value them the same way you do, and if they're less obviously valuable them make sure they're stored and labeled appropriately.

Another good reason to consider coins -- it's easier to get insurance coverage on silver coins than on non-numismatic bullion.


Agreed. I suppose there is a lower bound, a ton of assayed silver-bearing ore will be difficult to sell based on the silver content

I heard someone say that Valcambi, the big Swiss refinery, is so careful about authenticity and purity that if they buy their own gold back from say APMEX, they will melt it down into new bars. They only trust what has just left their own refinery.

 

[not new guy]

They can’t afford the reputational risk.

 

[Atlantis]

Retail silver is so expensive right now that I would buy PSLV or even SLV instead of paying $35-40 for a silver Eagle worth $27. The mints will catch up with demand eventually, then you can sell your PSLV and buy coins.

If you want leverage to silver buy SILJ, silver miner ETF. If silver goes to $35 it’ll double.

And if silver goes to $18 it’ll get cut in half.

What do you think of the idea that the physical market is the true indication of price and the paper market is being suppressed? Rumors of COMEX not wanting people to take physical delivery of futures/options and trying to settle in cash, etc.

Like the premium is only a premium If there is actually a market where the physical is being sold at the paper spot value.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I’m a simple guy. Get the 99.99999% pure stuff like Gold Buffalos or Canadian Maple Leafs. Get the same type of coins for 99.99999% silver content.

There are many guys here who like certain coins whether vintage or otherwise with certain percentages of precious metal content. If I would have changed one thing I would have bought a lot more silver bullion like the Apmex silver eagles in the roll of 20 in addition to the gold I have. Those Apmex rolls were going for like $440 during the NY’s sale. I’m kicking myself for not buying deep then

Incorrect. You are describing 7 nines of accuracy. Silver bullion coins are commonly 3 nines (.999); the Maple Leafe is 4 nines; and some private rounds are 5 nines.

Gold bullion coins are commonly 4 nines, but there are 5 nine Maple Leafs. (The standard Maple used t be 3 nines; 4 is now standard; and some 5s are made as a separate product)

I am not aware of any bullion coins sold at the 7 nines (.9999999) purity level.

 

[DJBrad]

Incorrect. You are describing 7 nines of accuracy. Silver bullion coins are commonly 3 nines (.999); the Maple Leafe is 4 nines; and some private rounds are 5 nines.

Gold bullion coins are commonly 4 nines, but there are 5 nine Maple Leafs. (The standard Maple used t be 3 nines; 4 is now standard; and some 5s are made as a separate product)

I am not aware of any bullion coins sold at the 7 nines (.9999999) purity level.

It’s not accurate on purpose. I wasn’t trying to be accurate with the 9’s. I just pressed my thumb on the 9’s as much as I wanted.

 

[DJBrad]

Incorrect. You are describing 7 nines of accuracy. Silver bullion coins are commonly 3 nines (.999); the Maple Leafe is 4 nines; and some private rounds are 5 nines.

Gold bullion coins are commonly 4 nines, but there are 5 nine Maple Leafs. (The standard Maple used t be 3 nines; 4 is now standard; and some 5s are made as a separate product)

I am not aware of any bullion coins sold at the 7 nines (.9999999) purity level.

I also appreciate your “purity” on the matter

 

[ASHDUMP]

Big news?

Scottsdale Mint on Gab: ''

Scottsdale Mint on Gab: 'Big news in our world. Amark acquires Jm Bullion. Amarks movements for market dominance continues. Amark has ownership in lots of brands you all use. http://bit.ly/2Z0VPc7'

gab.com

 

[Varmint]

What do you think of the idea that the physical market is the true indication of price and the paper market is being suppressed? Rumors of COMEX not wanting people to take physical delivery of futures/options and trying to settle in cash, etc.

Like the premium is only a premium If there is actually a market where the physical is being sold at the paper spot value.

What you’re referring to as the physical market, is actually the retail coin and bar market, which is a small portion of the overall silver market. So there’s definitely a shortage of minted coins, small bars etc, but there’s no shortage of physical silver, there’s plenty of that in large bar form if you are a large buyer (like a US mint) buying on the spot market.

There's certainly a very large short position on silver, but part of that is silver miners or manufacturers who buy or sell physical silver, who are hedging in case the price of silver goes down. They're not short silver cause they want to drive it down, it's just insurance against price fluctuations. It seems like a common misconception that the silver futures market is for trading and suppressing prices, but it's really meant for entities like chip manufacturers (buyers) and miners (sellers) dealing in silver. Those guys rely on banks to deal in silver for them.

The part about the Comex is certainly true, they don't want everyone to take physical delivery - but most aren't going to anyway, because (a) it's a huge amount of physical silver, and (b) that's a lot of money tied up in physical product, so that could be a risk for a lot of investors. Back last year when the supply chain was disrupted, traders weren't sure the physical would actually be delivered, so it was safer to roll over the contract.

 

[ASHDUMP]

Starting to like these guys more and more....

Scottsdale Mint on Gab: ''

Scottsdale Mint on Gab: 'Today is a meme day, we want to have fun here too! Just got in some pallets of bread! Each loaf weighs 70lbs. Best way to get yourself a low premium if you've been frustrated recently. Minimum one pallet of bread. #shinybread'

gab.com

 

[Varmint]

Starting to like these guys more and more....

Scottsdale Mint on Gab: ''

Scottsdale Mint on Gab: 'Today is a meme day, we want to have fun here too! Just got in some pallets of bread! Each loaf weighs 70lbs. Best way to get yourself a low premium if you've been frustrated recently. Minimum one pallet of bread. #shinybread'

gab.com

Very cool!

Good illustration of how there's no shortage of giant loafs of silver, but mints like Scottsdale have to form them into retail products to meet the crazy demand, and that takes time.

 

[Atlantis]

What you’re referring to as the physical market, is actually the retail coin and bar market, which is a small portion of the overall silver market. So there’s definitely a shortage of minted coins, small bars etc, but there’s no shortage of physical silver, there’s plenty of that in large bar form if you are a large buyer (like a US mint) buying on the spot market.

There's certainly a very large short position on silver, but part of that is silver miners or manufacturers who buy or sell physical silver, who are hedging in case the price of silver goes down. They're not short silver cause they want to drive it down, it's just insurance against price fluctuations. It seems like a common misconception that the silver futures market is for trading and suppressing prices, but it's really meant for entities like chip manufacturers (buyers) and miners (sellers) dealing in silver. Those guys rely on banks to deal in silver for them.

The part about the Comex is certainly true, they don't want everyone to take physical delivery - but most aren't going to anyway, because (a) it's a huge amount of physical silver, and (b) that's a lot of money tied up in physical product, so that could be a risk for a lot of investors. Back last year when the supply chain was disrupted, traders weren't sure the physical would actually be delivered, so it was safer to roll over the contract.

So you believe that If you were a serious player like a mint or an industrial supplier and you tried to place a multi ton order at current spot prices, you’d find an abundance of sellers at those listed spot prices? No premium?

 

[Varmint]

So you believe that If you were a serious player like a mint or an industrial supplier and you tried to place a multi ton order at current spot prices, you’d find an abundance of sellers at those listed spot prices? No premium?

Yes. You’ll get the spot price.

 

[Atlantis]

Yes. You’ll get the spot price.

In that case yes the premiums are a loss. I’ve heard it rumored that the spot price is actually artificially low and large players are currently paying premiums as well because that’s what it costs to actually obtain physical.

 

[Varmint]

In that case yes the premiums are a loss. I’ve heard it rumored that the spot price is actually artificially low and large players are currently paying premiums as well because that’s what it costs to actually obtain physical.

Yeah, a small premium makes sense cause the mint has to make the coin, etc, but these crazy premiums are just pure markup due to high demand.

I don’t think that’s true about spot buyers paying a premium - you could argue silver would be much higher if the Comex couldn’t conjure endless paper contracts out of thin air to meet demand, that’s probably true. But I think silver will go up anyway - silver had a huge year in 2020, moving it’s trading range from $14-18 up to $22-29. That’s a huge move and it needs time (6-12 months maybe) to consolidate before moving higher.

 

[not new guy]

Unless inflation gets out of control.

 

[Varmint]

Unless inflation gets out of control.

Silver's been consolidating for 6 months already, so it could launch past $30 any day now.

Everyone seems to think big inflation is coming - the consensus is usually wrong, but it sure looks like it. Once the economy opens up, there's gonna be a massive surge in demand fueled by a year of pent up savings and money printing.

 

[smokey-seven]

What coins or bars or rounds would you recommend someone start with if they had a couple grand to invest?

Do not disregard 90% US Coin pre 1965. Everyone says pre 1964 but 1964 was still 90% silver.

Silver Coin Values | Today's up to the Minute Value

Silver coin values of dimes, quarters, half dollars and silver dollars follow the price of silver. Using the calculator finds today's value. Images identify the series and important dates of silver coins. Your old coins are becoming surprisingly valuable, discover how much they are worth.

www.coinstudy.com

90% US coins are easily bought and sold. 1/2 dollars command a small premium. Today's silver spot prices a $10 roll of dimes is $127+

I use 90% and large silver bars as trade goods toward Silver Eagles. It cuts out the fed tax issue as you trade in 100 Oz of silver and buy 100 Silver Eagles and you pay only the premium.

Also, it’s good to have some lower value bullion so that your not stuck with 1oz coins only worth $2300. You could do fractional gold too.

Never dismiss the Federal Tax issue. If you sell 5 US Gold Oz coins to a dealer, you may get a 1099. Read probably rather than may.

Selling a 20 coin roll of silver at 30$ an ounce + a little premium is under the radar by quite a bit when you look at ounces of gold. Fractional gold is good but you are paying higher premiums.

For you silver guys, here's a couple interesting articles. Technical and a little long, but well worth the read.

“Houston, we have a Problem”: 85% of Silver in London already held by ETFs. | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Is silver a good investment? A beginner's guide to silver and the role it can play in your portfolio

Silver shares gold's investment strengths as a balance to stocks and inflation hedge. But as an industrial metal, it offers other risks and rewards.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Never dismiss the Federal Tax issue. If you sell 5 US Gold Oz coins to a dealer, you may get a 1099. Read probably rather than may.

First off, it's a 1099B, not a 1099.

Secondly, only sales that can be used to satisfy a CFTC (Commodity Futures Trading Contract) are subject to reporting. US gold coins do not require sales reporting (yet); some foreign ones do; and US pre-66 silver coins do in sufficient quantities (I think it's 25oz for Gold, don't know about US silver coins).

Non-reporting does not relieve you of the obligation to report the sale and pay collectible gains (higher than capital gains, more like ordinary income) taxes on any profit.

 

[Varmint]

First off, it's a 1099B, not a 1099.

Secondly, only sales that can be used to satisfy a CFTC (Commodity Futures Trading Contract) are subject to reporting. US gold coins do not require sales reporting (yet); some foreign ones do; and US pre-66 silver coins do in sufficient quantities (I think it's 25oz for Gold, don't know about US silver coins).

Non-reporting does not relieve you of the obligation to report the sale and pay collectible gains (higher than capital gains, more like ordinary income) taxes on any profit.

Just more reason to hold your PMs until the US government goes the way of the Weimar Republic.

wondering when that’ll be? Just look at bitcoin, the dollar is hyperinflating against bitcoin, what if it did that against other assets like gold and real estate? Bitcoin is the canary in the coal mine for the dollar.

 

[n1oty]

I took a look at JM Bullion tonight. Gold seems stable, at the moment, with premium-over-spot back to normal on gold coins. A lot of silver coins, such as the Silver Eagle and the Maple Leaf are back in stock, BUT the premium-over-spot is still quite lofty.

 

[smokey-seven]

First off, it's a 1099B, not a 1099.

Yea...

US gold coins do not require sales reporting (yet); some foreign ones do; and US pre-66 silver coins do in sufficient quantities (I think it's 25oz for Gold, don't know about US silver coins).

I sold silver 100oz bars. Having a sales receipt for the purchase as well as the 1099(ahem)B, I had to pay regular income tax on the difference. Next time on multiple 100oz bar sale, I will take Silver Eagles in trade and have a 0$ 1099(ahem)B net.

A lot of silver coins, such as the Silver Eagle and the Maple Leaf are back in stock, BUT the premium-over-spot is still quite lofty.

I looked at JM this morning. They have BU 2021 SE's for $41.~~ as well as MS69 and MS70's for the expected premiums.

 

[Win]

I got a 1099B from PayPal for some numismatic coins that I sold via eBay. Given the difference of what I purchased the coins for I'm only paying taxes on $150 or so dollars. No big deal.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I sold silver 100oz bars. Having a sales receipt for the purchase as well as the 1099(ahem)B, I had to pay regular income tax on the difference. Next time on multiple 100oz bar sale, I will take Silver Eagles in trade and have a 0$ 1099(ahem)B net.

Several online sources claim 1099B only kicks in for silver bars of 1000oz or more. (one source says any size "totalling 1000oz or more"). The sources I am thinking of are Apmex, JM Bullion, Fischer and SD Bullion.

The means one of two things:

That information is wrong,​

​

or​

​

You sold 1000oz or more of 100oz bars to one buyer​

​

or​

​

Your dealer is being overly cautious - not unlike dealers who refuse to treat stripped lowers as non-firearms under MA law.​

I would really like to know which of these is the case.

Best to ask if your buyer reports. If you trade for Eagles, ask if the dealer will treat it as a sale with a 1099B followed by a purchase of Eagles, or just a non-reportable transaction.

 

[yogi]

I sucked it up and bought a couple of 2021 proof eagles from the us mint....$73/ea and within minutes they were gone....i have eagle proofs for almost every year going back to 1996.....maybe as a “complete” set they will be worth a little at some point....but ouch the prices

 

[yogi]

Just checked Apmex for 2021 proof eagles...now I don’t feel so bad paying $73:

 

[Varmint]

Gold technical analysis:

Basically predicting a drop to $1767 range before rallying to $2306. Hang in there peeps.

 

[Varmint]

Feb 11, 2021 Gold, Silver, & Oil: Price Reaction Playbook captainewave 321gold ...inc ...s

321gold.com ...takes no prisoners!

www.321gold.com

And silver, predicting a drop to $20.7 range or $18.60 before off to the races. I don't buy that, I think there's too much demand for silver, it won't go below $21, but touching $20.7 is possible.

It may seem strange that a Silver Eagle is $40 while spot goes to $21, but the US mint won't raise it's production capacity so there's no increase in demand from the mint, they're already maxed out.