Gold and silver prices are down

[HappyHarry]

With American Eagles and other US minted coins you get the protection of law and the threat of the Secret Service investigating the counterfeiters. It's a whole different level of legal protections.

And with PCGS you get a guarantee of authenticity. Yeah, I know there have been some counterfeits of the coins and PCGS containers but authentic PCGS grading gets you some insurance.

No doubt some will get screwed out there however...

If you're just one of the regular people, the Secret Service couldn't care less. Someone I know bought a full set of circulated "Morgan dollars" that turned out to be counterfeit - every coin, including common dates. At first glance they looked ok, like a low to mid-grade set that someone put together over time, in an old blue Whitman folder. All the coins had the same gray circulated look to them, everything looked legit until you looked a little closer and weighed a few. The buyer in this case just wasn't experienced. The buyer knew the name, address (in Peabody), and phone number of the seller, who played dumb and promised to make good.
After weeks of chasing the seller, the buyer called the Secret Service and they couldn't have been less help if they tried. They made believe they were taking a report on the phone, including seller's info, and that was the end of that "investigation".
If you're buying a PCGS or NGC coin, for starters, look up the slab number on their web sites and confirm it's the same coin. Then look at the label printing and hologram with jewelers loupe and compare to a known good example. Also look at the seams on the edge of the case. If you buy much from unknown sources then a tester like the Sigma is worth having. It can even test through the slab or most other packaging.

 

[richc]

I'm as regular as a high fiber diet...

If you're just one of the regular people...

 

[richc]

Here's some American Eagles on "sale" at ebay. About $110 over spot. That's as low as I've seen them recently.

Makes me think either some dealers have suddenly become loaded with inventory or they foresee a price drop next week.

FYI I did not scour ebay for any better deals. This one just popped up.

2020 $50 American Gold Eagle 1 oz Brilliant Uncirculated | eBay

Due to the volatile nature of the bullion market all gold, silver, platinum and palladium bullion sales are final. You may cancel your order, however all cancellations will be subject to any market loss as described in our Market Loss Policy.

www.ebay.com

ETA:

Looks like it is the best deal on ebay:

Coins in Coin:American Buffalo|American Eagle|Austrian Philharmonic|Canadian Maple Leaf|South African Krugerrand, Precious Metal Content per Unit:1 oz | eBay

Shop from the world’s largest selection and best deals for Coins. Shop with confidence on eBay!

www.ebay.com

 

[HappyHarry]

Here's some American Eagles on "sale" at ebay. About $110 over spot. That's as low as I've seen them recently.

Makes me think either some dealers have suddenly become loaded with inventory or they foresee a price drop next week.

FYI I did not scour ebay for any better deals. This one just popped up.

2020 $50 American Gold Eagle 1 oz Brilliant Uncirculated | eBay

Due to the volatile nature of the bullion market all gold, silver, platinum and palladium bullion sales are final. You may cancel your order, however all cancellations will be subject to any market loss as described in our Market Loss Policy.

www.ebay.com

ETA:

Looks like it is the best deal on ebay:

Coins in Coin:American Buffalo|American Eagle|Austrian Philharmonic|Canadian Maple Leaf|South African Krugerrand, Precious Metal Content per Unit:1 oz | eBay

Shop from the world’s largest selection and best deals for Coins. Shop with confidence on eBay!

www.ebay.com

Just for a frame of reference, this is yesterday's wanted to buy post from a large dealer. If he's paying $80 over spot, then Ebay at $110 over isn't bad.

Here's some American Eagles on "sale" at ebay. About $110 over spot. That's as low as I've seen them recently.

Makes me think either some dealers have suddenly become loaded with inventory or they foresee a price drop next week.

FYI I did not scour ebay for any better deals. This one just popped up.

2020 $50 American Gold Eagle 1 oz Brilliant Uncirculated | eBay

Due to the volatile nature of the bullion market all gold, silver, platinum and palladium bullion sales are final. You may cancel your order, however all cancellations will be subject to any market loss as described in our Market Loss Policy.

www.ebay.com

ETA:

Looks like it is the best deal on ebay:

Coins in Coin:American Buffalo|American Eagle|Austrian Philharmonic|Canadian Maple Leaf|South African Krugerrand, Precious Metal Content per Unit:1 oz | eBay

Shop from the world’s largest selection and best deals for Coins. Shop with confidence on eBay!

www.ebay.com

Just for a frame of reference, this is yesterday's wanted to buy post from a large dealer. If he's paying $80 over spot, then $110 over on eBay is a pretty good deal.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

And with PCGS you get a guarantee of authenticity. Yeah, I know there have been some counterfeits of the coins and PCGS containers but authentic PCGS grading gets you some insurance.

PCGS slabs have been counterfeited, so we need a new grading service to grade the grading slabs.

 

[HappyHarry]

PCGS slabs have been counterfeited, so we need a new grading service to grade the grading slabs.

Well there's CAC; I haven't seen any fake CAC's... yet. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that they exist.

 

[richc]

Fund Manager: The Collapse Of Comex Paper Gold Derivatives House Of Cards Has Begun

www.silverdoctors.com

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Well there's CAC; I haven't seen any fake CAC's... yet. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that they exist.

How would you know ?
Not all PCGS or NCG slabbed coins can get a CAC sticker.

 

[HappyHarry]

How would you know ?
Not all PCGS or NCG slabbed coins can get a CAC sticker.

Very true - I'm not sure how they would handle a fake slab submitted to them.

 

[Win]

I thought the whole point of NGC & PCGS was that they reimburse you if the coin is counterfeit, obviously overgrazed, turns in the holder etc?

 

[Win]

Oh fake slabs. Sorry. I get it now. I always check the cert number online and make sure everything matches up

 

[HappyHarry]

Oh fake slabs. Sorry. I get it now. I always check the cert number online and make sure everything matches up

Even if you check the slab number online, if there are no photos online of the coin it could still be a fake. Counterfeiters will use slab numbers of real coins. These photos are of a PCGS listing, with photos, of a real coin along with a fake coin in a fake slab with the same real slab number. Of course, after all the effort put into making the fake, some nitwit put the grade on the label as "MS612+"

 

[Win]

Because of my acute numismatic skills I would have caught that “MS612+” as suspicious

 

[Freddy Q]

If you're just one of the regular people, the Secret Service couldn't care less. Someone I know bought a full set of circulated "Morgan dollars" that turned out to be counterfeit - every coin, including common dates. At first glance they looked ok, like a low to mid-grade set that someone put together over time, in an old blue Whitman folder. All the coins had the same gray circulated look to them, everything looked legit until you looked a little closer and weighed a few. The buyer in this case just wasn't experienced. The buyer knew the name, address (in Peabody), and phone number of the seller, who played dumb and promised to make good.

So how can us regular people buy ANY coins and have any hope of not getting scammed??

 

[HappyHarry]

So how can us regular people buy ANY coins and have any hope of not getting scammed??

A scale, along with a good quality metal tester, like a Sigma, to check for correct gold or silver content; buy from reputable dealers; PCGS app to initially screen slab numbers; watch out for too-good-to-be-true deals.

 

[smokey-seven]

So how can us regular people buy ANY coins and have any hope of not getting scammed??

Buying US 90% silver coin is pretty safe if you stay in the lower denominations. Silver dollars have been known to be china counterfeit. I don't know of many US quarter counterfeiters. Buy from a reputable dealer and you should be good to go. Slabbed coins carry too much of a premium for me unless it is a MS70 2020 last year of design. I bought a number of those and will do it again with the MS70 2021 SE's for sets of last and first issue.

.

 

[Freddy Q]

Thanks for the advice gents, I appreciate it.

I do like Silver Eagles, both as a way of storing capital and as a collector, and I have a number of mint sleeves of them that were purchased from reputable dealers. (I also have some individual SEs either slabbed or in mint cases, and yes I have a few lbs of 90% silver coins) But I also collect (and love) early copper (I have a very nice 1794 Liberty Cap large cent, a beautiful 1797 Flowing Hair large cent, a 1788 Massachusetts large cent, an uncirculated 1857 Liberty Head large cent, etc) and a number of those were purchased from online auction sites and are un-slabbed (is that a word?). Outside of common sense and gut feeling, how can you avoid getting scammed there?

I also collect currency (I like large $1 notes although I have some $2, $5 silver certificates and treasury notes) but most of my rare currency is slabbed. I do have quite a good number of unslabbed fractional notes though. Seems like the coin/currency world is rife with fakes and its really disheartening to an avid, life-long collector.

 

[HappyHarry]

Thanks for the advice gents, I appreciate it.

I do like Silver Eagles, both as a way of storing capital and as a collector, and I have a number of mint sleeves of them that were purchased from reputable dealers. (I also have some individual SEs either slabbed or in mint cases, and yes I have a few lbs of 90% silver coins) But I also collect (and love) early copper (I have a very nice 1794 Liberty Cap large cent, a beautiful 1797 Flowing Hair large cent, a 1788 Massachusetts large cent, an uncirculated 1857 Liberty Head large cent, etc) and a number of those were purchased from online auction sites and are un-slabbed (is that a word?). Outside of common sense and gut feeling, how can you avoid getting scammed there?

I also collect currency (I like large $1 notes although I have some $2, $5 silver certificates and treasury notes) but most of my rare currency is slabbed. I do have quite a good number of unslabbed fractional notes though. Seems like the coin/currency world is rife with fakes and its disheartening to an avid, life-long collector.

There are a large number of very good quality counterfeits of early copper. Any of these that are selling for more than a couple hundred dollars should be slabbed. You can send them in yourself; go to the PCGS or NGC webb sites for info. Counterfeiting collectible coins is more common than counterfeiting old currency.
If you are using reputable online auction companies like Heritage, you should be safe. Ebay, Etsy, most Facebook groups - you're treding in dangerous waters.

 

[Freddy Q]

Again, great information Harry, thank you. I thought that you had to be a member of (either NGC or PCGS) to be able to send submissions in to get slabbed. I was not aware that Joe six pack could do it on his own..

I do want to send my more valuable copper in to get slabbed, so I can be safe they're authentic, but I gotta say - I get a thrill from opening up the air-tite every now and then and holding a coin that was held by someone who was alive during the Revolutionary war! This coin was in the pocket of someone who was alive during the colonial era! Its such a cool feeling to me as a coin geek and history buff. Something about the Slab makes them more sterile, less visceral, more removed, if that makes any sense.

 

[HappyHarry]

Again, great information Harry, thank you. I thought that you had to be a member of (either NGC or PCGS) to be able to send submissions in to get slabbed. I was not aware that Joe six pack could do it on his own..

I do want to send my more valuable copper in to get slabbed, so I can be safe they're authentic, but I gotta say - I get a thrill from opening up the air-tite every now and then and holding a coin that was held by someone who was alive during the Revolutionary war! This coin was in the pocket of someone who was alive during the colonial era! Its such a cool feeling to me as a coin geek and history buff. Something about the Slab makes them more sterile, less visceral, more removed, if that makes any sense.

You do need to join PCGS and/or NGC to submit coins, but the membership fee includes a credit for submission fees that is basically equal to the membership fee. I think PCGS is still about $250/yr, but includes credit for 8 "free" submissions.
I do agree about the idea of actually holding the coin and thinking about the stories it could tell.
There is a private Facebook group with great info on counterfeits. If you have Facebook you can PM me with your FB contact info and I can invite you into the group.

 

[not new guy]

Harry - have you ever seen what look like light rust/discoloration spots on gold? On a bar, to be exact?

I've read about the possibility of their being impurities on the dies that can cause it, but it comes up so rarely online that I'm having a hard time finding any more info. For what it's worth the bar (JM 2oz) checks out perfectly weight and design-wise, it serialized, and was purchased at what I think is a reputable shop. I know I need to get it to someone who has a Sigma/tester, but that's tough to do at the moment...

 

[HappyHarry]

Harry - have you ever seen what look like light rust/discoloration spots on gold? On a bar, to be exact? I've read about the possibility of their being impurities on the dies that can cause it, but it comes up so rarely online that I'm having a hard time finding any more info. For what it's worth the bar (JM 2oz) checks out perfectly weight and design-wise, it serialized, and was purchased at what I think is a reputable shop.

It's unusual, but not unheard of, to have a small spot, especially on coins. If you're buying in person at a reputable shop, they should be able to test it in front of you on an electronic tester, like the Sigma.

 

[Varmint]

Silver fans may get wood from this chart.

If it's not clear it's the gold silver ratio, which peaked in 2008 before crashing, causing silver to explode upwards by like 500%. If gold goes to $2000 silver will go to $50.

 

[Varmint]

Ebay does not care how much ($1000 thresh hold) you buy, they or paypal just charge the MA tax. I scream about that and refuse to buy metals through Ebay. They can charge the tax and NOT PAY IT to MA if it's over the thresh hold. Guaranteed additional profit.

That set of SE's is not a bad price at all.

Ebay fixed that, if you haven't looked recently. A week or two ago I noticed they're now correctly removing tax on purchases over $1000, even if it's multiple items (from the same vendor).

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I also collect currency (I like large $1 notes although I have some $2, $5 silver certificates and treasury notes) but most of my rare currency is slabbed. I do have quite a good number of unslabbed fractional notes though. Seems like the coin/currency world is rife with fakes and its really disheartening to an avid, life-long collector.

I have a counterfeit 50cent note that has the word "counterfeit" burned into it and a form from the feds stating it was examined, found to be counterfeit, branded and returned. The note and the form date from the mid 1800s.

 

[not new guy]

Ebay fixed that, if you haven't looked recently. A week or two ago I noticed they're now correctly removing tax on purchases over $1000, even if it's multiple items (from the same vendor).

Ebay is also refusing to sell over a certain limit ($500?) to you unless/until you go through some sort of secondary verification process. Maybe not worth the trouble when you figure in the scammers.

 

[HappyHarry]

I have a counterfeit 50cent note that has the word "counterfeit" burned into it and a form from the feds stating it was examined, found to be counterfeit, branded and returned. The note and the form date from the mid 1800s.

Sounds cool, I'd love to see a pic of that, if you can post one. There are active collectors of contemporary counterfeits, but they're out of my wheelhouse.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Sounds cool, I'd love to see a pic of that, if you can post one. There are active collectors of contemporary counterfeits, but they're out of my wheelhouse.

I'll see how good a photo I can get through the glass, but I am not unmounting it. It was part of a framed set (the other holding 3 genuwhine fractional notes that I got from my folks when they downsized and have hung in a dry area away from sunlight.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Loogadis:

Some things never change. It took the Treasury department from 2/13/1890 until 7/17/1890 to process this. The three notes in the other photo are real.

 

[Varmint]

Fund Manager: The Collapse Of Comex Paper Gold Derivatives House Of Cards Has Begun

www.silverdoctors.com

Silver doctors is full of quacks - I used to listen to their podcasts but found much better options. That author is one of the few worth listening to, and he may someday be right, but the issues at the Comex have already resolved themselves - at least for now.