Great info here. I don't run the G17/34 10-round mags, but I do have Hornady critical defense in my G26 and G19 carry guns. One reason is that it feeds great (no problems in hundreds of rounds) and seems like a decent defensive round on paper anyway. What did you see in testing that turned you off it?
-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
-
Be sure to enter the NES/MFS May Giveaway ***Canik METE SFX***
Glocks fail to go boom (pic heavy)
- Thread starter Danrk6
- Start date
Great info here. I don't run the G17/34 10-round mags, but I do have Hornady critical defense in my G26 and G19 carry guns. One reason is that it feeds great (no problems in hundreds of rounds) and seems like a decent defensive round on paper anyway. What did you see in testing that turned you off it?
I did not witness this particular test first hand, but I trust the word of those that did. Apparently they were failing to expand which caused them to act more like a FMJ. I believe Cekim witnessed the test, so hopefully he can jump in here.
Looking at the shape of the round, I don't find it hard to believe. If you think about it, the critical defense rounds are shaped like a spear with wedges on all sides forcing pressure into the center of the round on impact of a target (not unlike a fmj). In comparison, most other hollow point rounds have a gaping cup shape that creates wedge shapes forcing the contents of the rounds outward on impart. I could see how such a small cup on the front of the critical defense (which is also filled with a rubber/polymer material) does not intake enough material on impact to counter the forces pressing in by the sharp pointed shape of the outer jacket. I can only speculate that this is the cause as I may be talking out of my ass.
eta: Like you I also carry this ammo based on testing in my gun. They feed very well, even in the cripple mags that came with my G19. But if they perform like a FMJ, why not just carry FMJ? This is why I was looking to switch.
Last edited:
I tried to swap the followers in my G17 mags, and the full cap followers wouldn't fit into the 10rd magazines.
The 10 rd magazines have bumps on the sides to make it effectively single stack, and the full capacity follower is too wide.
![[cheers]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/018.gif "Cheers [cheers]")
. Nice info.Mark from MA
NES Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2008
- Messages
- 11,649
- Likes
- 11,877
Good info they must have changed the followers out on newer crips to celebrate the Obama election.
My g4 21 has three cripples and they all run great. They have a regular follower similar to a standard capacity.
Other gen 4 that iv had have come with crips that have worked fine as well. Ive never seen that follower before. Awesome glock.....great job
My g4 21 has three cripples and they all run great. They have a regular follower similar to a standard capacity.
Other gen 4 that iv had have come with crips that have worked fine as well. Ive never seen that follower before. Awesome glock.....great job
Last edited:
ISOTOX
NES Member
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2008
- Messages
- 8,263
- Likes
- 5,339
![[slap]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/025.gif "Slap [slap]")
Excellent presentation of facts. Thank you for posting.
Take aways:
Practice Practice and more Practice.
And if you can, move out of MA.
Take aways:
Practice Practice and more Practice.
And if you can, move out of MA.
I loathe my 10rd mags, absolutely worst mags to load.
Dan thank you for posting this... This massively reinforces what I've told people all along... Cripplemags should be avoided if at all possible. They're OK for farting around at the range but in a lot of cases, not much beyond that... and if for some reason, you're going to trust your life to them, you need to test them... hard.
-Mike
-Mike
I have had a similar experience however after replacing the internals it seemed to fix the issue. However it was only one mag which I may have been just lucky that my replacement of internals fixed the issue.
As Mike said I test my mags after I buy them, rapid fire, quick mag replacement during reload,. I will say out of my five Glocks one being a first Gen 45 they never have failed me.
But then again my 1911 WW2 Remington Rand has NEVER failed me, but then again its an old war horse and served our country until we went to the wimpy 9mm.
Great post, thanks for the info.
As Mike said I test my mags after I buy them, rapid fire, quick mag replacement during reload,. I will say out of my five Glocks one being a first Gen 45 they never have failed me.
But then again my 1911 WW2 Remington Rand has NEVER failed me, but then again its an old war horse and served our country until we went to the wimpy 9mm.
Great post, thanks for the info.
Dear Danrk6:
Please accept this posting that I have updated for you. Though your attempt at humor on the internet was well received by a scant few neanderthals and understood by some to be a fun way to "diss" the establishment, it also appears that you have stomped on the sensibilities of most who come to this website. Please see my corrections below and update your original posting at your first available opportunity.
Please accept this posting that I have updated for you. Though your attempt at humor on the internet was well received by a scant few neanderthals and understood by some to be a fun way to "diss" the establishment, it also appears that you have stomped on the sensibilities of most who come to this website. Please see my corrections below and update your original posting at your first available opportunity.
Now that I have the attention of the disapproving vocal group and approving vocal group alike, I would like to lay upon you this lovely compressed mass of unused refuse of knowledge I managed to manufacture in with liberal use of my imagination at the range today.
This doesn't apply to those of us here that live in a state where an individual can be trusted to own a standard capacity magazine. However, if you live behind the unsurpassed belief in the protection of Martha Coakely and choose to carry a Glock with modified for your own protection mags, pay attention.
I'll start by saying that I have been carrying a Gen4 G17 for quite some time. As a defensive handgun, I trust it with my life. I have run over ten thousand rounds through this particular handgun, used it during two different courses (1500-2000 rounds each), and practice with it almost every week. I mention this only so that I can pretend to know what I am talking about on the internet.
Just recently I picked up a Gen4 G19 because I wanted a gun I could carry with a little more comfort without having to change platforms. It came with 3 brand new MA approved for your safety10 round magazines. I have never used 10 round mags in my G17 so this was my first experience with them.
Before deciding to carry a gun I make sure to test everything thoroughly, testing every mag with hundreds of rounds. If you don't make a point to do this, well then you're very trusting in Martha Coakley and her insistence that there is no possible way for the police to not be able to save you and your family at the first hint of trouble . It is even more important that you make a point to run your gun with the self defense ammunition you intend to carry.
A friend of mine over the years has been testing various hollow points in an expansion test using water and a box full of dry wall to catch the rounds for comparison. Through his testing he has concluded that Federal HST hollow points are one of the best rounds on the market in a variety of different calibers. After learning that the hollow points I have been carrying perform in highly lawyer approved manner , I decided to test these rounds as a new replacement for my new gun.
As I have not had a chance yet to pick up some standard capacity mags for my G19 yet, I give you the following:
On the top you have a approved for your safety, thank you Massachusetts government for thinking for me, Deval mag. On the bottom you have a DANGEROUSmag. Be sure to note the difference in follower design.
Front - SAFETYmag, rear - EVIL SUPER DANGEROUSmag.
Left - enviornmentally acceptable, right - bank robbery only.
Front - safety commettie approved, rear - Sub average IQ. Pay special attention to the cant of the round. I am sure the round CAN, it just needs a second/third/fiftieth chance.
I believe this shot illustrates the added room necessary in the magazine for the chode of MA law to ensure that you are unable to act in your, or other's self defense and allow the rights of a (not yet proven to be a) criminal to override your own. After all according to our own Marsha Croakley, "We don't approve of self defense".
Lets begin:
For your viewing pleasure I give to you 3 different Glock G19s with 3 different super intelligent ways in which MA does this to protect you mags. Two Gen4 G19s and a Gen3 G19c. All three guns will be loaded with a different protectionistmag (all from different owners) and a round of Federal HST. I apologize for the poor video quality, but you will get the point. I have been busy working my life away to ensure that I can give the Democrats as much of my unneeded cash as possible so they can distribute it as they so see fit. Seeing as how I cannot be trusted to spent my money as I so see fit.
Next video shows loading a smartermag with a round, then loading that same round into a previously accepted by the less informed but dangerous to puppiesmag.
Using the unsafe due to it's capability to carry too many bulletsmags we ran into ZERO malfunctions using any of the hollow points we had on hand.
It is also important to point out that one of the tests was run with Gold Dot hollow points (a pretty common cartridgethough it is only used to trample on the rights of others) with the same results. Didn't matter how many rounds were loaded into the mags, full, one, didn't matter.
The reason for the EXTREMELY RELIABLE malfunctions is a result of the follower used in the magazines approved by people who are clearly smarter than all gun owners combined mags. They are in no way the same, it is obvious that the approved safety magazines protect you from yourself at an astonishingly steady rate. The followers used in anti-enviornment mags are anti-tilt while the 10 rounders are not. As the slide pushes the round into the feed ramp, it takes a nose dive and slaps directly into the base of the ramp, in an effort to keep the bullet in a slightly safer location and to help prevent you from trampling on the rights of un-convicted criminals who are only trying perform God's will by making the stuff of others their own.
I am sharing this with everyone here because I know for a fact that there are MANY people on here that don't make a point of testing their equipment as they should. I also know that there are a lot of people that carry Glocks here in MA because they are reliable handguns. Additionally there are a lot of people out there carrying these relics of an age gone by with safety approved mags in an attempt to comply with the will of the, obviously, more informed. After what I saw today, I would never trust my life to one of these governmentaly approved safety devices. I will be carrying my G17 from now on until I can acquire some archaic and dangerousmags for the G19.
Some may be thinking, "well mine works just fine". Why would you take the chance? These mags reliably turned three otherwise flawless firearms into a collection of paper weights. The only other hollow point that I have tried feeding through these mags have been Hornady Critical Defense. Because these rounds have a much more narrow nose and a filled tip, they were able to feed. However, the whole point of testing the HST rounds was because I learned that the Critical Defense rounds grant the "other guy" for whom I have no right to attempt to protect myself against, a distinct advantage.
I will be testing these mags using different hollow points as I get the chance, but they have been put aside for range use only.
Hopefully this has been helpful to at least one person.
Last edited by a moderator:
There have been at least a half dozen variations of Glock 9mm followers over the years. The ones marked 9mm3 seem to work the best. I have at least a couple of dozen glock 9mm mags, some going all the way back to gen 1 that came with the 2183 followers. I replaced them all with 9mm3 followers and have no problems with any of them.
I will hold any comments whether its good info or not until you post a video of you properly chambering a round by racking the slide back to seat the round. Not saying you are wrong, or that there isnt a problem with the cripple mags so please dont take it that way. I have been taught, in all classes I take, that you should not use the slide stop lever to release the slide. Thats why its called a slide stop, not slide release. So post the video of that if there are the same results, I will be surprised.
Again, not trying to be a smartass or anything so dont take it that way.
Again, not trying to be a smartass or anything so dont take it that way.
It's only called a slide stop in some owner's manuals. Some call it a slide release.
If the extra 3/16" of spring force makes the difference between it working, and not, there's *still* something wrong.
You say, "proper way", but ... well, lots of of people disagree with you.
This tired position needs to die. Opinions are fine. Stating arbitrary opinions as absolute truths is not. The OP knows more about shooting than about 99% of the posters here, so humility is in order.
If you run your gun one way or another, then test it the way you run it. Those results will apply to you. The OP tested the gun the way he runs it (the way many of us run ours, and perfectly "proper" by the way) and found the results that apply to him.
I get that, and maybe me saying "proper way" was wrong, but just as I am open to what everyone has to say, be open to trying it and see if there are the same results. You are so quick to jump on the fact that you think I am trying to be an ass an opposing your or the OP's opinion. In fact, I just really want to know...
I should add that Glock specifically states not to use the slide stop to release the slide, I know other manufacturers do not and it works fine.
I should add that Glock specifically states not to use the slide stop to release the slide, I know other manufacturers do not and it works fine.
Last edited:
Mine does the same thing regardless of slide release or load mag with single round, insert into gun with slide already in battery on an empty chamber, then pull slide back and release...
CLUNK! Same failure.
Don't have video handy, but fails reliably - I did some quick experiments:
1. Pull back in an orderly manner and release - failed 10 for 10 times.
2. Pull back quickly as you would with a speed reload failed 7 of 10 times. 3 times it went into battery...
I was actually able to see that the more I allowed the gun to move while I racked the slide, the more likely it was to go into battery, but the more efficient (minimal) my motions, the more likely it was to fail.
None of that is a surprise, it is catching on a small portion of the face of the round, so any bounce added increase the chances that it will jump over the face and into the chamber.
None taken... SCIENCE!
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
FWIW, after bashing the same round into the barrel a few times, it is flat enough that I cannot get it into battery at all out of 10rd follower equipped mag, but that same round still feeds reliably with a #6 (15rd) follower.
Alright, I spoke with my friend to find out more information about the critical defense rounds so that I didn't leave this statement hanging.
The following is a picture of a side by side comparison of two captured rounds. The one on top is the critical defense. The one on the bottom is an HST.
Of the three captured rounds of critical defense, this was the best sample. The hornady maximum expansion observed with the round was to .53 caliber, while the HST achieved an expansion to .61 caliber and remained much more uniform across testing. Another aspect of a hollow point round that needs to be taken into consideration is its ability to maintain its mass. If the round breaks apart, it starts to waste energy in other areas than the main wound canal. Through testing, the HST was observed to maintain almost 100% of its mass. Even in the picture above you can see how the critical defense is missing pretty much all of the lead core.
For me, this is enough to see that what I have been carrying isn't the best possible option I could be carrying. This was my reason for testing the other rounds.
eta: it was also observed that the HST seemed to move more mass upon impact of the target media.
Last edited:
