FrontSight Offer

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I am sure most of you have seen the Frontsight offer for 4-5 days of training and the free gear including a HK USP for just over $1,000.
Sounds like a great deal.

BUT, anyone know what he'll do for MA residents in terms of the free pistol? Just curious.
 
I don't trust anything coming out of Front Sight - the founder is a Scientologist, their web site is like an infomercial for Rogiane or Just for Men and they give away a lot of "free courses" with the intent of getting people out there and trying to sell lifetime memberships for anything from $5k up to $100k.
 
I don't trust anything coming out of Front Sight - the founder is a Scientologist, their web site is like an infomercial for Rogiane or Just for Men and they give away a lot of "free courses" with the intent of getting people out there and trying to sell lifetime memberships for anything from $5k up to $100k.

+1

I will not do business with Piazza.
 
I am sure most of you have seen the Frontsight offer for 4-5 days of training and the free gear including a HK USP for just over $1,000.
Sounds like a great deal.

BUT, anyone know what he'll do for MA residents in terms of the free pistol? Just curious.

It says an Springfield XD on the ad, not a USP.

I think the massive bone job Piazza did to the investors was enough
to make me want to stay away....

-Mike
 
I'm going out to FrontSight with the group that Jim Conway put together. Before I decided to go, I did a bunch of research on the net about FS. The summary of what I found was that while there are plenty of issues with the real estate deal (many would say scam) and some outrageous pricing on life memberships, the training itself is top notch. I'm planning to go with an open mind but leave my checkbook at home.
 
I'm going out to FrontSight with the group that Jim Conway put together. Before I decided to go, I did a bunch of research on the net about FS. The summary of what I found was that while there are plenty of issues with the real estate deal (many would say scam) and some outrageous pricing on life memberships, the training itself is top notch. I'm planning to go with an open mind but leave my checkbook at home.

I agree.

After glancing over the offer, it sounds to me like FrontSight is having cash flow problems. 'Pay no for services you can receive in the future,' is a typical strategy for a struggling business looking to generate a large amount of cash quickly. I don't know about the gun, but all the other stuff sounds like goods they'd already have on hand, so its virtually all income otherwise.

The risk to the consumer is that if the company is in trouble, it may not be in business when you go to receive the services you paid for. I'd hate to dish out my 1400 intending on training next year, only to be stuck with a 500 gun, a box full of junk and a worthless piece of paper.

Oh God, I hope they survive through October...
 
Front Sight

I have been a member at Front Sight for almost 10 years. Yes I did pay for all of my training up front. Over the past years, I have got my money out a couple of times over. I addition to that Mike Nastek and I are able to take a large group to Front Sight and none of them has to pay for the course.
As far as I am concerned, Front Sight has been a win - win situation.
Remember that the naysayers and hecklers always pick on companies that are being successful. I have been there when there were over 600 people training at the same time. I am told that the record weekend had over 700 poeple. If you do not believe it just think about how Walmart is treated in the liberal news media..
 
Remember that the naysayers and hecklers always pick on companies that are being successful.

I disagree with that very strongly.

I would (and have) pointed people towards Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Blackwater, and other successful and reputable training companies.

The difference between those companies and FrontSight is easy to see by anyone willing to do a little research.
 
Its great that we live in America where free speech is allowed.

That said here is my take. My spouse and I are both Front Sight First Family Members and we are more than happy with the facilities and the exceptional traning we have received. $ 4,500.00 dollars invested more than $ 9,000.00 dollars in services received. The training was and is top notch and the facilities have been improved every year.

I take it that you missed the offer we made to join us?

?? How many training courses or facilities have you trained at?

Religion has nothing to do with Firearms Training and the caliber of people we have met over the years.

Will you pass judgement upon me for being a Republican, Roman Catholic, living in Massachusetts??

My 5 cents worth.
 
I take it that you missed the offer we made to join us?

No, I did not miss it.

?? How many training courses or facilities have you trained at?

I have approximately 200 hours of formal training at a number of organizations, including Lethal Force Institute, Sigarms Academy, S&W Academy, Cumberland Tactics, etc.

Will you pass judgement upon me for being a Republican, Roman Catholic, living in Massachusetts??

The Catholic church does not brainwash and imprison people. The Catholic church does not support itself with slave labor. My wife was raised as a Catholic. While I, unfortunately, do not share your faith, I certainly respect it.

Scientology is a rather different organization than any mainstream church. There is a reason that Scientology is outlawed in Germany. I strongly suggest that you google Scientology and RPF:

http://www.solitarytrees.net/pubs/skent/brain.htm
http://www.xenu-directory.net/practices/rpf.html

I am not criticizing you. I am not criticizing your decision to patronize FrontSight. Let's turn on the way back machine and see exactly what I wrote:

I will not do business with Piazza.

That is not an attack on you.

Then I wrote:
I disagree with that very strongly.

I would (and have) pointed people towards Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Blackwater, and other successful and reputable training companies.

The difference between those companies and FrontSight is easy to see by anyone willing to do a little research.
This is not an attack upon you either. This discussion is about FrontSight and Piazza. Not about you and me. Let's stick to the issues.
 
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All of this talk about Scientology is nothing but trash talk and yesterday's news at that.
I have had numerous long conversations with Dr. Ignatius Piazza, the founder of Front Sight, and the subject of Scientology NEVER came up. After all of the courses that I have taken, I have never heard Scientology discussed or even mentioned in any context.

Whether Ignatius Piazza is a scientologist is of no importance to me. I thought that our Bill of Rights gave us the right to worship as we choose without interference from the government. i guess that some folks think that they know better than the rest of us
 
All of this talk about Scientology is nothing but trash talk and yesterday's news at that.

No, it is not trash talk. People have been reported to have died in the Scientology RPF program. The Church of Scientology is reported to enslave people. You choose to do business with Piazza. I choose not to.

Ask Andre Tabayoyon, Julie Mayo, and Jesse Prince if the Scientology RPF program is "old news."

I have had numerous long conversations with Dr. Ignatius Piazza, the founder of Front Sight, and the subject of Scientology NEVER came up. After all of the courses that I have taken, I have never heard Scientology discussed or even mentioned in any context.

You will note that I never accused him of using FrontSight to proselytize Scientology. So do us all a favor and stop the ridiculous straw-man arguments.

I thought that our Bill of Rights gave us the right to worship as we choose without interference from the government.

Stop it right there Mr. Conway!

First, I am not part of the government. Second, I am not in any way trying to interfere with Piazza's right to worship how he chooses. Third, I have the right to choose not do business with the man.

i guess that some folks think that they know better than the rest of us

All I have said is that I will not do business with Piazza. And your response has been to insult me. Pathetic.
 
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Here's a short extract about the Scientology RPF:
Other people spoke about either being forcibly confined themselves (for example, Whitfield, 1989: 6) or seeing others who were. On the west coast, Jesse Prince insists that he saw a metal cage in the RPF's RPF in the basement of the Cedars Sinai building where the inmates "were locked up at night to ensure that [they] wouldn't try to escape" (Kent Interview with Prince, 1998: 18). On the east coast, Dennis Erlich joked about his RPF assignment, and, in accordance with Hubbard's policy, wound up in the RPF's RPF in Fort Harrison's basement. Guarded down there for ten days, Erlich states that he spent the first day or two "locked in a wire cage…" (Kent Interview with Erlich, 1997: 8). When Nefertiti (which is the presumed former member's alias) found herself in the RPF's RPF in the same basement a decade or so later, she met a woman (she claims) who was "in her thirties, feverish, [her] entire body poured with sweat [and] was wearing chains. She had a chain about twenty inches long linking her two ankles so she had to do small hasty steps" (Nefertiti, 1997: 3). Tonya Burden swore, "under pains and penalties of perjury" (Burden, 1980: 12), that she "personally observed a person chained to pipes in the boiler room in the Fort Harrison building for a period of weeks" (Burden, 1980: 10). Likewise, in an affidavit, hana Whitfield swore that, while she was on the RPF in the Fort Harrison, Lyn Froyland was assigned to the RPF's RPF and "was chained to a pipe down there [in the basement] for weeks, under guard. She was taken meals and allowed toilet breaks, but no other hygiene" (Whitfield, 1994: 42).

The most extensive account of confinement comes from former member Andre Tabayoyon, who wrote about the Gilman Hot Springs base (on which RPF members worked) having a security system that included "the perimeter fence, the ultra razor barriers, the lighting of the perimeter fence, electronic monitors, the concealed microphones,the ground sensors, the motion sensors and hidden cameras which were installed all over the area—even outside the base" (Tabayoyon, 1994: 8 [para. # 28]). Tabayoyon reported that he worked on the base's security system in 1991, but back in January 1983, unwilling RPF inmate Julie Mayo found her freedom blocked by a guarded fence at Gilman Hot Springs. Taking what may have been the only escape option she had, Julie Mayo waited one morning until the guard opened the gate to allow someone to walk across the street for breakfast, and slipped out to the road, unnoticed, before it closed (J. Mayo, 1996: 8-9). If Jesse Prince's account is accurate, then many of the Scientology staff at Hemet were heavily armed, as were the guards for the Happy Valley RPF (Kent Interview with Prince, 1998: 49).

Other escape stories indicate that the RPF victims were, essentially, imprisoned in situations where they had not give consent (much less informed consent) for their captors to hold them. Vickie Aznaran, for example, "and two other victims escaped from Happy Valley onto the Soboa Indian Reservation where they were pursued on motorcycles by guards of Happy Valley. Vicki and the other victims were rescued by residents of the reservation who picked them up in a pick-up truck and spirited them to a motel in the City of Hemet" (Aznaran and Aznaran, 1988: 12).


full text here: http://www.solitarytrees.net/pubs/skent/brain.htm

Mr. Conway, this is Scientology.
 
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My concern with Frontsight isn't to do with Scientology it is more to do with the business structure: it is a classic pyramid scheme where the people who have bought into it with the first family life memberships can only continue to benefit from those life memberships if there is a steady stream of new people buying life memberships.

Once you run out of new members how does Frontsight continue to operate?

I have nothing against neshooters and I hope I am able to take advantage of the great training opportunities you offer in the future, it is obvious that by buying into Frontsight early on you have been able to get than your money's worth, and that's great. I just hope that people don't buy into Frontsight and fail to get their money's worth because the lawsuits use up all the money and/or the stream of new members dries up.
 
M1911:
Since you are working at defaming a man and an organization, maybe a few facts will partially educate you. You also said that my remarks have insulted you. That is your choice.

From reading this info, maybe you will see that he has done a lot more that most people for our gun rights. Can you even begin to meet his acomplishments? I do not know of anyone, myself included, that can

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dr. Ignatius "Naish" Piazza (b. 1960) is the founder and director of the Front Sight Firearms Training Institute in Pahrump, Nevada. He lives near Santa Cruz, California.

Biography
Piazza grew up in Pleasanton, California and attended Livermore High School, where he was a varsity athlete. He later became a doctor of chiropractic and owned a practice in California.

In lectures and presentations, he relates the story of the evening his home was the victim of a random drive-by shooting. Escaping injury, he realized that the firearms he owned did him little good as he had no real training in their use. He made the decision to become the best he could be in the defensive use of his firearms, and wanted to teach others how to do the same. Ultimately, this led to his founding of Front Sight near Bakersfield, California in 1996, to "positively change the image of gun ownership in our lifetime".

In 1998, his vision expanded to include a complete world-class resort, like a "Disneyland for gun enthusiasts" and a town, Front Sight, NV, envisioned as "the safest community in America". Since this time, he has been working to build this resort about 45 minutes outside of Las Vegas, Nevada. His efforts have been covered by local news and gun enthusiast periodicals, but notably have received international exposure as well in the New York Times, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, BBC, Playboy Magazine, USA Today, San Francisco Chronicle, CNN, Washington Post, Forbes, and a piece by noted journalist Diane Sawyer.

Piazza has established a philanthropic project called Helping Those Who Help Others. The goal of this project is to focus on and contribute to charities with a proven track record, similar to a charitable trust. An extensive list of charities which have been supported can be found at the project homepage.

In 2003, Piazza produced a documentary entitled Innocents Betrayed. The purpose of this documentary was to show the point of view that, historically, gun control has been used to disarm populations for the purpose of government sponsored genocide.

In 2006, Piazza created and began producing the reality television series Front Sight Challenge, airing on the Versus Network.[6]

Through Front Sight, Piazza was involved in preparing actor Mark Wahlberg for his role in the 2007 film Shooter.


Controversies
Piazza has occasionally been a controversial figure, not just for his vision promoting responsible gun ownership, itself a controversial issue, but on a number of other points.


Political activism
He is a life member of the NRA although he disagrees with some of their methods and certain positions on some issues. For instance, Piazza does not agree that the message of gun ownership should be watered down by claiming that guns are only for hunting, a claim to which anti-gun activists may respond by asking why someone needs an AK-47 to shoot down a deer; he believes that the simple and honest message that firearm ownership is protected by the 2nd Amendment is enough (reference: Front Sight promotional DVD, 2005).


Arming pilots
Piazza was among the first to respond to the September 11, 2001 attacks with suggestions on how to prevent this type of event from happening in the future. His proposed solution was to arm all airplane pilots, and to this end he promised free training to all airline pilots in his "Arm Our Pilots Campaign". At the time this was viewed incredulously in some circles, but has become a more plausible response in political discourse with the passage of time. Piazza takes pride in being a leader in promoting this type of answer to violence and terrorism (reference: Front Sight promotional DVD, 2005).


Arming school employees
In April 1999, in response to the Columbine High School massacre, Piazza announced that free firearms training would be offered for up to three teachers or administrators at any school in the United States.

In April 2007, in response to the Virginia Tech massacre, Piazza announced that free firearms training would be offered to any teacher, administrator, or other school staff member.


Arming students
In 2007, Utah University lifted the ban on students carrying concealed weapons. In support of this, Piazza announced that a free 5-day course on carrying and using a concealed handgun would be offered to every student there. Having taken this course and received a concealed carry permit, any Utah student would be able to carry concealed in 30 US states due to reciprocity laws. Furthermore, the student's diploma from the university would carry the designation CWP. Piazza stated, "If our university students are old enough to fight for our freedom and die in Iraq with a machine gun in their hands, then with Front Sight’s responsible training under their belts, they are certainly old enough and intelligent enough to carry a concealed handgun on college campuses to protect themselves, classmates, and faculty from the next homicidal and suicidal psych drug failure."


Civilian deputyship
Piazza was previously granted a special deputyship by the Nye County, Nevada sheriff, a not uncommon practice in rural counties. This granted him legal authority to carry a concealed weapon on airplanes and also in his home Santa Cruz County, California. This commission was rescinded in light of new county laws by newly elected county sheriff Tony DeMeo in 2003.


Litigation
In 2002, he sued former Front Sight instructor Dean Gamburd for claims against his person. The case was apparently settled.

In 2002, he sued Diana Hsieh for claims against his person. The case was settled out of court.

In 2006, Piazza and Front Sight were sued in a class action by certain members of the "First Family", an exclusive membership to the Front Sight facility, for failing to deliver on expectations made when the memberships were purchased. A settlement has been proposed

Scientology
Piazza has been associated with Scientology[22][26], and has reportedly reached the level of "Clear". He considers himself to be a Catholic and not an active Scientologist, but does use some of the business strategies and ideas of L. Ron Hubbard in his endeavors
 
The man that accused Dr. Piazza of being a scientologist

The is the letter from the man that accused Dr. Piazza. Dr. Piazza sued Dean Gamburd and the case was settled.

Letter from Dean Gamburd posted to GlockTalk around 23 October 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Public Retraction

I fully retract all statements made against Ignatius Piazza and Front Sight
Firearms Training Institute. I must admit that I was misled or fooled by some
people circulating incorrect, incomplete and or misinformation. I apologize
for any concerns this may have caused. Please do not make the same mistake
that I did.

In exchange for returning my 110,000 shares of Front Sight stock, forfeiting
my Bronze First Family Membership, and other valuable consideration provided,
Front Sight has agreed to dismiss their lawsuit against me.

Front Sight is that which it claims to be. I fully support the Second
Amendment and those who also promote and support it. I strongly recommend you
do the same.

Due to postings on the Internet by people unknown to me or by those who
without my knowledge, permission or consent, used my name or nicknames
posting items I did not author, a copy of my Notarized retraction is on file
at the Front Sight office.

Sincerly,

Dean Gamburd
 
M1911:
Since you are working at defaming a man and an organization, maybe a few facts will partially educate you.

Just how have I defamed Piazza? The definition of defamation:
(also called vilification, slander, and libel) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim,

Has Piazza not been associated with the Church of Scientology? I haven't said anything bad about FrontSight itself. I haven't criticized its training. I haven't criticized Piazza's business practices. I haven't criticized his handling of memberships and the controversies and lawsuits that have resulted. I have criticized the Church of Scientology.

For a statement to be defamatory, it has to be false.

You also said that my remarks have insulted you. That is your choice.

No, it was your clear intent to insult. Let's review what you've said in this thread:

Remember that the naysayers and hecklers always pick on companies that are being successful.

All of this talk about Scientology is nothing but trash talk

i guess that some folks think that they know better than the rest of us

You choose to do business with Piazza. I choose not to.
 
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M1911
The text that you provided has a number of serious criminal allegations.
You have not mentioned any arrests or trials. I wonder why???

Scientology operatives committed infiltration, wiretapping, and theft of documents in government offices, most notably those of the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. Eleven highly-placed Church executives, including Mary Sue Hubbard (wife of founder L. Ron Hubbard and second-in-command of the organization), pleaded guilty or were convicted in federal court of obstructing justice, burglary of government offices, and theft of documents and government property. The case was United States vs. Mary Sue Hubbard et al., 493 F. Supp. 209 (D.D.C. 1979).[3][4][5][6]

There have been a number of trials involving the Church of Scientology, including:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/452734.stm
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/spain.html
http://home.snafu.de/tilman/mgarde/lyon2.txt
http://www.scientology-lies.com/press/oregonian/1985-04-19/witness-says-judge-probed.html
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/05/29/Tampabay/Scientologists_settle.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White

Before you continue to defend the Church of Scientology, please read what Time Magazine wrote about it: http://www.xenu.net/archive/media/time910605.html
 
This will be short. I do not care anything about Scientology and I am not now and have never been a member.
It is you who has a hair across his butt about that subject.
Your diatribe on Scientology is totally off topic.
Why don't you find some religeon forum and continue your rant there because I am not interested in the subject. The allegations that front Sight is a Scientology front are old news and have been thoroughly debunked
 
his will be short. I do not care anything about Scientology and I am not now and have never been a member.
It is you who has a hair across his butt about that subject.
Your diatribe on Scientology is totally off topic.
Why don't you find some religeon forum and continue your rant there because I am not interested in the subject. The allegations that front Sight is a Scientology front are old news and have been thoroughly debunked

Jim, I have NEVER said nor in any way implied that FrontSight is a Scientology front. I have never said nor implied that FrontSight is in any way connected to the Church of Scientology. I have never said nor implied that Piazza or other staff members of FrontSight have proselytized for the Church of Scientology. I have said that Piazza is associated with the Church of Scientology and that I do not wish to do business with him. Criticizing me for what I write is fair game. Criticizing me for things that I have never written nor implied is completely inappropriate.

Plenty of folks here have commented on Scientology, at length: http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=29636&highlight=scientology

People can disagree without being disagreeable.

You choose to do business with him. I choose not to.
 
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