For all the empty chamber guys

[weekendracer]

Getting shot really messes up your response. Similar reaction was seen of the Indian jeweler video mentioned in one of the posts above.

It’s why the FBI study of perps who shot or killed cops practiced to get first shot out as quickly as possible, a shot on non-critical area, even the noise made by a missed shot, produces tactical and psychological advantage.

Another possibility is injured hand: if one of your hand is injured it makes chambering difficult if not entirely impossible. There was a thread on Arfcom, that the good guy was having trouble getting shots off his 1911 because his hand was shot by perp and he couldn’t squeeze the gun hard enough to disengage the grip safety.

Yeah, in training, we talk a LOT about breaking OODA loops. ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING, that makes someone stop and think is a good thing if you are behind the power curve.
Train so you skip steps in your OODA loop. If you are skipping steps and bad guy is constantly restarting his, you can catch up and get ahead.

 

[meh]

those hesitant to put a round in the chamber, God blessed them with the revolver.

Also DA autoloaders.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

If he watched Instagram subsecond draw videos, he would be alive...

That's sarcasm by the way. The reality is that a twitch motion draw on a gun is going to be seen all day, and if someone has a gun pointed at you, it's only going to take them less than half a second to react and pull trigger. Covert draw or take your chances. Lol

 

[DJBrad]

Too many fail videos I’ve seen drawing from the drop and those of condition 2 caused me (plus this forum) to carry condition one all the time now. Thanks to many members here that urged that practice.

 

[Varmint]

Your 5 year old has been old enough for safety lessons for like.......4 years.

Yeah ok. Do you have kids? I have been working on the mental safety training with them but need to do the physical part before I’m comfortable with chambered rounds in the house. My younger one has serious listening problems. The 7 year old was has been ready for a year at least.

 

[Varmint]

I respect your post in the past and agrred with some, but there is a lot of fail in you statement. The few second Nd vs five year old will find in con 2. As others have pointed out...seriously. And guess what, if your son finds your gun and says so in school, you are red flagged.

Hell, if you take him to the range and he says something at school, odds are better than even you are red flagged.

That’s ok I’m here to learn and NES has changed my attitudes many a time. I will teach my kids riflery soon, and I don’t care if they talk about that at school. I was mostly joking about school. The school can suck it.

 

[whacko]

Yeah ok. Do you have kids? I have been working on the mental safety training with them but need to do the physical part before I’m comfortable with chambered rounds in the house. My younger one has serious listening problems. The 7 year old was has been ready for a year at least.

Yes I do. A boy that is a two sport varsity athlete with a 3.9 GPA, mostly ap classes, that never plays video games, that can hunt field dress and butcher every game animal in new England, that can back country camp for a week without even bringing a tent, and landed an army Rotc scholarship for college.

Now......off my soap box.

Dude.....your first post said and I quote "until they are old enough for safety lessons" when referring to your 5 year old.......that statement.....to any human being with even a hint of reading comprehension ability above about the 2nd grade level is construed to mean you have not done any safety lessons with your child yet. So calm down frodo baggins

As far as your comment about your kid saying something at school.....I don't even know where to begin here. My son has been at the range with me since he was about 4-5 I think. Shooting pellet guns for starters then moved him up as he was ready. He was shooting a snub 357 magnum with mag loads at age 10 or 11 I didn't keep track. He didn't learn how to hunt and take care of himself by keeping my fire arms a secret. Yes.....I live in mass.

Now......when my son was a year old i started teaching him guns were for adults and never to be touched by children unless they were told they could. You know......no different than a hot stove and a 1 year old. My son knew I had a gun on me at the 4 o'clock position on my belt the moment he was able to walk on his own.....and unlike you.....my gun was chambered and hot. He was instructed never touch daddy there......this is not for kids...on and on. To the point my family and friends laughed because when we got together and I walked in their house or they came over ours my boy would point to my belt at 4 o'clock and say "don't touch daddy there". Teaching for arm safety can be done as early as a child can walk.

Now......do yourself a favor and re read your first post and you'll see why in responded the way I did.....it totally sounded like you had not started any safety lessons yet. Then.......take my word for it......you can teach a child not to touch your belt area where you carry a gun......and you can teach a child to leave a gun alone and tell an adult when you see one. And you can have a loaded gun on your person in a house with kids. It's really not that hard. Your kids are your comfort level of course......I'm just saying that bringing kids up with guns and teaching gun safety at a very early age is doable.

 

[42!]

Personally, and it's what works for me, one in the chamber, safety on, hammer fired (1st shot is DA). With practice the safety comes off with the draw, and again with practice that 1st one being DA is no big deal. I put years and over 10K rounds into just 2 guns firing 3 rounds at a time, draw DA SA SA (2 center mass, one to the head), decock hoster and repeat. I combine this with 2 handed, single-strong, and single-weak, all with reload. But I'm not against innovation. I'll be replacing my CC with one of those newfangled striker fired ones in the near future, but it will have a safety and won't be my regular carry until I've put a few hundred rounds through it....3 at a time.

I guess my point is, it's all about PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. It should all be muscle memory, during a stress situation you're going to have way too much on your mind to be thinking about the mechanics of your draw and fire. And frankly, the draw and triple tap is going to be the most important, put those where they need to be and you should have a couple seconds to think about what comes next..... unless there are 4 bad guys in which case you're F'd anyway because at least one will be shooting back before you fire round 3.

 

[Andy in NH]

You have to weigh the odds. What are the odds the few seconds will matter vs the odds my 5 year old will find my condition 2 handgun. I’ll take the risk until he’s old enough for gun safety lessons.

The odds are that when your front door gets kicked in, you'll start and finish the fight with what is on your person or that which is within arm's reach.
Those "few seconds" will matter if you have to go get your gun and run the slide.
Especially if your 5 year old is between you and the door.
Carry your gun (in condition 1).
It's a lighter burden than regret.

 

[Matt_SERE]

The best video was posted by Derek years ago. Owner of a jewelry store is shot to death trying to chamber a round.
Maybe someone can find it.

I can't find the original but this is the one I remember.

 

[Cipher]

Reminds me of this video


View: https://youtu.be/Yy5e30ynJn4

 

[Artifact]

Unfortunately from my experience a large majority of firearm owners are not properly trained or don’t care to train in anything firearm related.

Easy right? Just point and shoot just like in the movies and video games, can’t be that complicated. Unfortunately too bad that you can’t respawn.

Also, a properly trained firearm owner can engage multiple targets in those 5 seconds. So yes, 5 seconds are a damn eternity so why add more math and unnecessary movements to it.

Wtf Artifact? I go to the range weekly and shoot a box or two or three so I do practice / train. You should see my target at 7 yards.

It’s not the quantity of ammo you shoot that matters. What matters is how you expand that ammo.

 

[jkelly1229]

Sort of like if you buy two lottery tickets you have twice as good a chance of winning. Can't argue with that. He should have had one in the pipe. Can't argue with that, either. But now that we have that out of the way, I like neither his execution nor his tactics facing multiple armed attackers. I don't think the outcome changes much when you tweak the circumstances by putting a round in the chamber and resetting the scenario. He might get one.

He kinda looks like a spaz so who knows all the hand movements could confuse the enemy

 

[Broc]

I keep a snap cap in the chamber. That way, when someone takes the gun away from me and tries to shoot me, the person wont know what happened and I cam take it back.

 

[Rat187]

OP: I got no problem if the store owner wants to commit suicide. I do wish he thought for second a second about his son sitting on the freezer, not the money till. Forfeiting your sons life over a few hundred dollars is beyond stupid.

 

[Coda]

Poor bastard.

This……….. Obviously the guy was no John Wick but two people lost their lives as a result of this. If he was racked and ready would they both still be alive? Who knows? If he never had a gun in the first place would they still be alive? Maybe. For me it gets to a point where over analyzing what he did wrong becomes disrespectful to the victims.

 

[parallax222]

do what you want but that's so strange to me....

What are the odds that the extra few seconds make a difference? I dunno, what are the odds you'l need a weapon at all?? It seems like there's some SUPER specific and dead-nuts accurate risk assessment going on if you believe the world to be precisely dangerous ENOUGH to be armed, but NOT dangerous enough so that you're willing to put a delay between you and being able to utilize your weapon should you need to.

I didn't take statistics and I don't think I have the computer power to calculate all of it anyways.. I think I'll just stick with condition 2 and not leaving shit where kids can get to it.

 

[xtry51]

If you want to carry not chambered, you need to train yourself to chamber while drawing.

Training is a huge deficiency in 99% of shooters. You can never train enough.

 

[Artifact]

OP: I got no problem if the store owner wants to commit suicide. I do wish he thought for second a second about his son sitting on the freezer, not the money till. Forfeiting your sons life over a few hundred dollars is beyond stupid.

The issue I take with the above is that there’s no way to know you won’t be shot even after you comply and bend over. They could have both survived if no action was taken but you just never know.

As far as I go, I would at least try successfully or otherwise.

 

[whacko]

do what you want but that's so strange to me....

What are the odds that the extra few seconds make a difference? I dunno, what are the odds you'l need a weapon at all?? It seems like there's some SUPER specific and dead-nuts accurate risk assessment going on if you believe the world to be precisely dangerous ENOUGH to be armed, but NOT dangerous enough so that you're willing to put a delay between you and being able to utilize your weapon should you need to.

I didn't take statistics and I don't think I have the computer power to calculate all of it anyways.. I think I'll just stick with condition 2 and not leaving shit where kids can get to it.

Condition 2.....hammer down on loaded chamber?

Your an sa/day guy I hope.

Condition 2 — Applies to Single-Action/Double-Action primarily. This is a magazine inserted, round in the chamber, hammer forward.

 

[parallax222]

Condition 2.....hammer down on loaded chamber?

Your an sa/day guy I hope.

Condition 2 — Applies to Single-Action/Double-Action primarily. This is a magazine inserted, round in the chamber, hammer forward.

Yea I carry a sig239. There's no thumb safety and I'm not about to carry with the hammer back with a round chambered. I put a mag in, chamber the round, de-cock the hammer, top off my mag, and then im good to go.

 

[whacko]

Yea I carry a sig239. There's no thumb safety and I'm not about to carry with the hammer back with a round chambered. I put a mag in, chamber the round, de-cock the hammer, top off my mag, and then im good to go.

That would be the correct way of course.

 

[Varmint]

Yes I do. A boy that is a two sport varsity athlete with a 3.9 GPA, mostly ap classes, that never plays video games, that can hunt field dress and butcher every game animal in new England, that can back country camp for a week without even bringing a tent, and landed an army Rotc scholarship for college.

Now......off my soap box.

Dude.....your first post said and I quote "until they are old enough for safety lessons" when referring to your 5 year old.......that statement.....to any human being with even a hint of reading comprehension ability above about the 2nd grade level is construed to mean you have not done any safety lessons with your child yet. So calm down frodo baggins

As far as your comment about your kid saying something at school.....I don't even know where to begin here. My son has been at the range with me since he was about 4-5 I think. Shooting pellet guns for starters then moved him up as he was ready. He was shooting a snub 357 magnum with mag loads at age 10 or 11 I didn't keep track. He didn't learn how to hunt and take care of himself by keeping my fire arms a secret. Yes.....I live in mass.

Now......when my son was a year old i started teaching him guns were for adults and never to be touched by children unless they were told they could. You know......no different than a hot stove and a 1 year old. My son knew I had a gun on me at the 4 o'clock position on my belt the moment he was able to walk on his own.....and unlike you.....my gun was chambered and hot. He was instructed never touch daddy there......this is not for kids...on and on. To the point my family and friends laughed because when we got together and I walked in their house or they came over ours my boy would point to my belt at 4 o'clock and say "don't touch daddy there". Teaching for arm safety can be done as early as a child can walk.

Now......do yourself a favor and re read your first post and you'll see why in responded the way I did.....it totally sounded like you had not started any safety lessons yet. Then.......take my word for it......you can teach a child not to touch your belt area where you carry a gun......and you can teach a child to leave a gun alone and tell an adult when you see one. And you can have a loaded gun on your person in a house with kids. It's really not that hard. Your kids are your comfort level of course......I'm just saying that bringing kids up with guns and teaching gun safety at a very early age is doable.

I wasn't upset about your post, just trying to picture a 1 year old encountering a loaded handgun, and how to teach them to deal with that. Cause I want my kids to handle finding loaded guns properly before I store them loaded at home. Others may have never ever left their handgun safe's open, or never ever left a holstered gun unattended by accident somewhere in the house with kids home. Kudos to them, but I sometimes make mistakes so I keep guns unloaded at home.

My main point was everyone's situation is different, often greatly, so it's strange to make blanket statements about what people should do. I was speaking only for myself, though I know others feel the same way. Your situation, able to open carry in your daily life is different than mine - where I live you'd have liberal heads exploding, and while that might be entertaining, it would be disruptive to my family's life. Could I live like you? Sure, but don't desire to. I don't hunt, and don't particularly desire to, though I'm sure I'd enjoy it if I did. NES is for people of all types, guns being a different level of priority for each of us.

 

[Varmint]

The odds are that when your front door gets kicked in, you'll start and finish the fight with what is on your person or that which is within arm's reach.
Those "few seconds" will matter if you have to go get your gun and run the slide.
Especially if your 5 year old is between you and the door.
Carry your gun (in condition 1).
It's a lighter burden than regret.

I live in a very safe neighborhood. Statistically I'm more likely to win the lottery than have armed dudes (who aren't cops) kick down my front door while I'm home. And I don't buy lottery tickets. I also have practiced martial arts, and don't think of myself as helpless without a gun.

I prioritize for what's likely, not what I fantasize about but isn't likely to ever happen. But I adjust on the fly - if there's an escaped convict in the neighborhood or strangers are coming over, I home carry. If we go into a depression and the Dems are out in the streets, I'll keep my BCM at arm's length.

 

[Varmint]

This……….. Obviously the guy was no John Wick but two people lost their lives as a result of this. If he was racked and ready would they both still be alive? Who knows? If he never had a gun in the first place would they still be alive? Maybe. For me it gets to a point where over analyzing what he did wrong becomes disrespectful to the victims.

I finally was able to watch the video and I agree. Hard to tell what went on, or what would have happened, so I wouldn't want to over analyze it based on just that video.

I do think if someone's pointing a gun at you, or hell, 3 guys, and yours is unloaded in your holster, it's probably too late - better hope he just wants your cash.

 

[Rat187]

The issue I take with the above is that there’s no way to know you won’t be shot even after you comply and bend over. They could have both survived if no action was taken but you just never know. As far as I go, I would at least try successfully or otherwise.

Granted maybe, but with his skill-set it's hard to argue that it was a nice try, N'est Pas ?

 

[Andy in NH]

I live in a very safe neighborhood. Statistically I'm more likely to win the lottery than have armed dudes (who aren't cops) kick down my front door while I'm home. And I don't buy lottery tickets. I also have practiced martial arts, and don't think of myself as helpless without a gun.

I wonder if Dr. William Petit thought he lived in a safe neighborhood?
The same with Kimberly Cates?
It's just not the odds that we need to be concerned with, but rather - what is at stake.
How does you (unnamed) martial art do against multiple attackers?

 

[weekendracer]

This……….. Obviously the guy was no John Wick but two people lost their lives as a result of this. If he was racked and ready would they both still be alive? Who knows? If he never had a gun in the first place would they still be alive? Maybe. For me it gets to a point where over analyzing what he did wrong becomes disrespectful to the victims.

I agree and disagree. We can analyze his actions and learn from them. He paid a high price for that information we can now digest.

There are obviously some people here who are fuzzy on the whole live chamber deal. While this is a 'movie', it's not Hollywood. This is how stuff really goes down. We don't know what he saw that may have made him go for his gun. All we can do is take in the lesson, put it in your toolbox. Maybe you decide to not draw, maybe you decide to carry hot chamber, there's a lot to pick out of this one.

 

[weekendracer]

I live in a very safe neighborhood. Statistically I'm more likely to win the lottery than have armed dudes (who aren't cops) kick down my front door while I'm home. And I don't buy lottery tickets. I also have practiced martial arts, and don't think of myself as helpless without a gun.

It's not that you're helpless without a firearm, it's being so far behind the power curve your plane is already stalled, you are fighting off a spin.

 

[Soundwave]

Ya I don't carry because I feel helpless (though I probably am lol). I just want to have the advantage if possible and certainly don't want to be at a disadvantage.