First BIG Mistake (Double charge), Questions and OUCH!

[DW357]

There is no way I can ever give better advice than EddieCoyle on reloading stuff, but this bears repeating. If you select powders that will show a double charge easily you will increase the chances of catching one when it happens.



I reload primarily .38/.357, from mousefart CAS .38s through massive .357 flame belchers that can be a handful to control even in my GP-100. The 3 powders I use (TrailBoss, Alliant 2400 and Win296/H110) will *ALL* show a double charge very easily - by spilling powder all over.

I am aware of the fact that I don't get as many charges out of them by using these powders, but they do exactly what I want them to do, they will show a double charge every time, and I am of the "A Full Case is a Happy Case" crowd.

I am well aware of all the back-and-forth about whether or not a case with lots of airspace will be likely to have issues, belief or disbelief in "Flashover", issues or non-issues with primer-powder contact and all that. While I am not willing to take a stand on any of these it is my belief that the absolute minimum airspace in a case is the ideal airspace in a case.

"But dude, I can get 2 or 3 times as many charges out of ($FAVORITE_POWDER) than with those!"

Yep. Have at it, its you gun and your life - just do me a favor please - don't let anyone else shoot them (the best advice when dealing with handloads in any event).

And frankly the cost of powder compared to the availability and cost of new body parts make me err on the side of safety.



More importantly to me is "What powder?"

Yeah I'm curious as to what powder you were using as well? Glad you're okay though!

Pistol calibers, I check every ~10th charged case for the charge weight and haven't had any issues yet. I also look into every single case I load before putting the bullet in.
But with rifle (only 30-06 so far) I can't bring myself to NOT weigh EVERY charge even though the Lee perfect powder measure works very well with stick powders like Varget and IMR-4064.

 

[drgrant]

I agree with the EC thing.... I like loading with a powder where either the powder is going to spill or its obvious to the naked eye that I have a double going on.

The other thing is I saw the words "got flustered". If you are getting "flustered" with your press, you're either not cut out to do this or you're doing it wrong, or you're rushing. This is in the same vein as people who "rush to reholster their gun" and your shirt gets snagged on the trigger and makes the gun ND into your leg. It's the same type of blooper. This isn't a race. Slow down.

If I run into a problem that requires me to do some troubleshooting, first thing I do is STOP the press and UNLOAD all the stations. The only piece of ammo that leaves that press is the one that was awaiting a crimp. Everything else gets tossed aside and recycled. Even then, whether I keep the batch or not
depends on the type of problem encountered.

Also, trust your gut. If you get a bad feeling about something.... DISCARD (or at least sideline the entire lot. I made some .38s once before, and suddenly I noticed the powder return thing on my 550, I had forgotten to tighten the wingnut enough. I was like "****, I bet there's a squib in that batch." I sequestered the batch of like 30 rounds I had produced, and fired them off one at a time later on, and sure enough, one of the rounds was a squib. Since I was prepared for it, no big deal.

-Mike

 

[NH-GP100]

Well, ya, you still need to look in the case... Just want to make clear I wasn't saying you don't have to, just that it's another safety check.

 

[P-14]

When you are done with a reloading run, you can weigh each round, too. You will see a squib or double charge very quickly. The weight of each round will vary a little but you will see a bigger change for a double charged round or a squib. Digital scales are cheap.

My thoughts only.

 

[Rockrivr1]

Lots of good advise here so all I can add is that I'm happy you were OK after it happened.

I did the opposite thing my first time reloading on my progressive. I somehow missed a charge on a round and ended up with a squib. Luckily for me the round did go far down the bbl and the new round didn't seat properly for the next shot. You learn and luckily your mistake will make you a better reloader in the future.

 

[Hoon]

Yeah I'm curious as to what powder you were using as well? Glad you're okay though!

Pistol calibers, I check every ~10th charged case for the charge weight and haven't had any issues yet. I also look into every single case I load before putting the bullet in.
But with rifle (only 30-06 so far) I can't bring myself to NOT weigh EVERY charge even though the Lee perfect powder measure works very well with stick powders like Varget and IMR-4064.

I verify the first 5 or so, and then just use a visual check. Anything that looks inconsistent goes on the scale.

Rifle I weigh each charge to within .1 for the bolt guns, but i just use the power measure for bulk .223 for the AR.

When you are done with a reloading run, you can weigh each round, too. You will see a squib or double charge very quickly. The weight of each round will vary a little but you will see a bigger change for a double charged round or a squib. Digital scales are cheap.

My thoughts only.

You can't do that reliably. Brass weights vary too much.

 

[DW357]

I verify the first 5 or so, and then just use a visual check. Anything that looks inconsistent goes on the scale.

Rifle I weigh each charge to within .1 for the bolt guns, but i just use the power measure for bulk .223 for the AR.



You can't do that reliably. Brass weights vary too much.

Especially with rifle brass. Some of my HXP 30-06 brass weighs ~183 grains and I have some Remington brass that weighs just shy of 200 grains. Although I'm dropping ~46 grains of powder so I guess you could notice the weight difference comparing loaded rounds. I wouldn't rely on that though.

 

[horsegoalie]

The press is a Lock-n-Load AP. I agree with several others though, this is really not that important. The mistake here was mine, not the press'.

The powder was Titegroup. I love this powder for 9mm and 45. I have run several thousand of both very successfully with the Titegroup on my single stage press. Always happy. BUT, I hear what you are all saying about the case filling. I will put some pics below that show case fills for my recipes and double charges for 9mm and 45 with Titegroup as well as the midline Power Pistol load (6.3gr). I think the main difference is the case inspection on a single stage versus a progressive. On the single stage, the powder was being done as a completely separate step, and I did three inspections. The first was when the round was first charged, then in the holder all rounds were rechecked, finally, right before I placed the bullet for seating and crimping. There was lots of light and comparison rounds around, so spotting a mistake was easy. Now, I think going to something like Power Pistol with more case fill will be a much better choice for my one inspection point in 45ACP. With a double charge fairly noticeable in 9mm, I will probably stay with Titegroup.

CASES WITH Titegroup (Note double charges are intentional)


CASES WITH Power Pistol (Note double charges are intentional)


I also added a light to the press that shines light directly into the charged case, just before the bullet is placed on it, making inspection easier.

The other thing is I saw the words "got flustered". If you are getting "flustered" with your press, you're either not cut out to do this or you're doing it wrong, or you're rushing. This is in the same vein as people who "rush to reholster their gun" and your shirt gets snagged on the trigger and makes the gun ND into your leg. It's the same type of blooper. This isn't a race. Slow down.
-Mike

Flustered was not a good choice of words. Here is what I believe happened: during my initial few rounds with the press, while doing adjustments to the timing, I would occasionally run into a situation that wasn't right. The correct choice, as I have learned since, is to do as you mention an pull everything off the press, but I did not do this. Let me give an example. When the shell plate was not advancing far enough occasionally, I would raise the ram and the resizing die would catch the shell plate. It is my belief that on one of some occasions, I lowered the ram, reraised it after tapping the plate, and continued on. I must have raised the case actuated powder dispenser enough to create the double charge when I reraised the ram. I was focused on the hang up and how to adjust things rather than the potential for a VERY bad occurrence. So, not so much flustered as thinking of the machine rather than the ammo, which is obviously a bad choice, and a very good lesson. The most important thing is the ammo....

 

[M1911]

I reload primarily .38/.357, from mousefart CAS .38s through massive .357 flame belchers that can be a handful to control even in my GP-100. The 3 powders I use (TrailBoss, Alliant 2400 and Win296/H110) will *ALL* show a double charge very easily - by spilling powder all over.

I haven't tried any of those powders. If I go back to competing with .38 again, I may have to try one or more of them.

 

[DW357]

I haven't tried any of those powders. If I go back to competing with .38 again, I may have to try one or more of them.

They're all very slow burning magnum powders except for trail boss. I don't think it is suggested to use H110/296 for 38 special. In fact, there's no load data on the Hodgdon website for 38 special or 38 +P using H110/296.

You might be able to use 2400 for a 38 special +P load as it's slightly faster burning than the other powders and you don't need a magnum primer? Probably wouldn't burn very clean. Not to mention you need a magnum primer for H110/296 so I don't think that would work for 38 special.

 

[Fattman]

glad your OK... Can you post pics of the gun?

 

[M1911]

I don't do magnum loads. I shoot .38 Spcl in IDPA, so I just need to make the power floor (I typically run around 120 PF). Cleanliness is very important, though, as crudded up chambers screw up reloads.

 

[DW357]

I don't do magnum loads. I shoot .38 Spcl in IDPA, so I just need to make the power floor (I typically run around 120 PF). Cleanliness is very important, though, as crudded up chambers screw up reloads.

Yeah I use H110/296 for my full house 44 magnum loads and 2400 for hot 357 magnum loads. Both of these powders shouldn't be downloaded unless you want some funky/dangerous stuff to happen. But you could certainly use Trail Boss for 38 special - plenty of data on the Hodgdon website.

- - - Updated - - -

glad your OK... Can you post pics of the gun?

I'd also like to see a picture of the gun too

 

[NH-GP100]

I haven't tried any of those powders. If I go back to competing with .38 again, I may have to try one or more of them.

They're all very slow burning magnum powders except for trail boss. I don't think it is suggested to use H110/296 for 38 special. In fact, there's no load data on the Hodgdon website for 38 special or 38 +P using H110/296.

You might be able to use 2400 for a 38 special +P load as it's slightly faster burning than the other powders and you don't need a magnum primer? Probably wouldn't burn very clean. Not to mention you need a magnum primer for H110/296 so I don't think that would work for 38 special.

Yes, I use the 2400 for .38 sp and +P loads, and it does burn dirty IMO - more like soot, but nothing I even had any issues with when it comes to getting new rounds in the chamber. PITA to clean up. I have considered trying SPM primers and working up a load. As it stands I am getting 821 to 1079 fps (depending on charge) w/A2400, SPP, Berrys 158gr RN and +P range brass.

I don't do magnum loads. I shoot .38 Spcl in IDPA, so I just need to make the power floor (I typically run around 120 PF). Cleanliness is very important, though, as crudded up chambers screw up reloads.

TB I am getting an average over multiple production runs of 738 fps out of 4.2gr w/SPP, 158gr lead. Anything faster than that and I go with A2400 (see above...)

Yeah I use H110/296 for my full house 44 magnum loads and 2400 for hot 357 magnum loads. Both of these powders shouldn't be downloaded unless you want some funky/dangerous stuff to happen. But you could certainly use Trail Boss for 38 special - plenty of data on the Hodgdon website.

Full House .357 loads get W296/H110 with SPM - I guess I could use the A2400, but like I said, it's pretty dirty compared to the H110, and I like the .327 loads I have worked up with it.

 

[horsegoalie]

Here are some pics of the gun. Really not much to see. In the last pic, you can see where I think the frame bulges, and the slide will go no further without forcing it. The rest of the gun looks like new. Unfortunately, looks like and is are two totally different things. I will be calling S&W to see if they will look at it.

 

[Fattman]

damn so sad, that gun is a beauty... I was hoping it wasnt the 2014 PC Bobtail, sadly it was.

 

[josh2600]

I learned this here on NES. If there's a malfunction just stop. Re-evaluate where you are. Check the rounds. I check the round at the powder die station to see if there's powder in it. And at the bullet seating die. And I just finish those rounds IF I see what I expect. If not start over.

After a malfunction I always restart from an empty press. Start over. Clear the mind. And pay attention.

We all lead busy lives. My mind is always wandering. I have to focus to reload. No TV, no radio, no conversation. Be completely focused.

FYI I was shooting one day with Bob P here on NES. I had a squib load. Bob P was standing nearby and immediately yelled "STOP". Saved my bacon.

I got my mulligan that time. And learned a valuable lesson about focus in reloading...

Glad you're OK. A gun can be replaced...

He caught it and you missed it huh? That's interesting. I absolutely don't mean to be insulting towards you by saying that either. I'm curious what round. I'm almost tempted to intentionally create a squib round, just so I have a clue how it would feel/sound.

 

[M1911]

He caught it and you missed it huh? That's interesting. I absolutely don't mean to be insulting towards you by saying that either. I'm curious what round. I'm almost tempted to intentionally create a squib round, just so I have a clue how it would feel/sound.

It is more of a pop rather than a bang. Much less recoil as well.

 

[jar]

It is more of a pop rather than a bang. Much less recoil as well.

I had a squib at the 2012 Area 7 and neither I nor the RO noticed anything amiss. Fitting in to the thread, it was my first time loading after adding the casefeeder to my LnL. Like has been said above, it's not cranking out ammo where you can get in to trouble, but dealing with hiccups.

 

[josh2600]

It is more of a pop rather than a bang. Much less recoil as well.

Pretty much what I would assume, but I've been around here enough to know that richc has been shooting a long time etc, so it's kind of scary that it snuck by him, same with Jar above.

 

[StevensMarksman]

This is all excellent advice.

The only thing I might add would be that when possible, try to select a powder that fills enough of the case so that you can't possibly miss a double charge.

This. I use Winchester WST for my .40 and 9mm. The powder is bulky enough that a 2x charge spills out and could never be missed.

StevensMarksman

 

[M1911]

Pretty much what I would assume, but I've been around here enough to know that richc has been shooting a long time etc, so it's kind of scary that it snuck by him, same with Jar above.

It can, particularly if you are in the midst of an action pistol stage and are concentrating hard on your run.

 

[EddieCoyle]

It is more of a pop rather than a bang. Much less recoil as well.

A primer-only squib is more of a "click" than anything else, and can sound like a misfire when you have your ears on. Fortunately, the primer only can seldom move a revolver bullet past the forcing cone, so the gun locks up, preventing you from piling on to the squibbed bullet.

 

[beaker]

Thanks all for the thoughts, and I have learned a ton. As for the gun, worth bringing to a gunsmith or not? Im thinking as someone said above, that I could never trust it agaib. Thoughts???

I would send it back to the factory and ask them if they can fix it or not. I was pretty paranoid and actually weighed every round when I was starting out. Glad you weren't seriously injured.

 

[M1911]

A primer-only squib is more of a "click" than anything else, and can sound like a misfire when you have your ears on. Fortunately, the primer only can seldom move a revolver bullet past the forcing cone, so the gun locks up, preventing you from piling on to the squibbed bullet.

Been there, done that. I've also had squibs in semi autos but fortunately recognized them.

 

[NH-GP100]

A primer-only squib is more of a "click" than anything else, and can sound like a misfire when you have your ears on. Fortunately, the primer only can seldom move a revolver bullet past the forcing cone, so the gun locks up, preventing you from piling on to the squibbed bullet.

I have had a couple of squibs with my .38 loads, they drove them fully into the forcing cone, and possibly into (or at least partly into) the barrel. This was with CCI-500 SPP's in a GP-100 - I had my ears on (of course), but both the sound and feel (like "lack of recoil" - these where CAS loads, 4.2 TB over SPP, but still, big difference...) where wrong.

That said, I have been shooting for a long time (only handloading for a few years though), and have more experience than your average range rat, so it was pretty obvious TO ME that there was an issue.

That said, I can see where someone would just say "Hu, that ain't right" and just go to the next round. Once you put more than a few round through ANYTHING you should be able to tell if something is wrong, but that is not always the case, and there are way too many folks that are clueless about way too much. Having a bullet jam it up and make it totally non-functional is not a bad thing in any case...

 

[herdbull]

Glad you are okay! I recently saw a picture of a fellow's gun who accidentally loaded his rifle rounds with pistol powder and he wasn't nearly as lucky as you. I started reloading a few years ago on a Dillon 550b using titegroup for 45acp rounds and experienced 3 squibs and at least two double charges....not good.

I learned to never load ammo when you are thinking about work or anything but the task of loading ammo.

Don't let the Family distract you (If my Wife comes into my cave to talk then I stop loading)

Make sure you have GOOD lighting! I bought bright LED lights from inline fabrication that fit right into the hole in the Dillon tool plate and yes, they cost a bit more than that $5 flashlight you may duct tape to your machine but it is worth the few extra dollars.

Use powder that fills the case so a double charge will be easily detected.

Mount a small inspection mirror to your press so you can look in the mirror and see in the case before placing the bullet.

I've learned many more things but these are the highlights that keep me shooting and give me the confidence in my reloads.

 

[peterthefish]

Been there, done that. I've also had squibs in semi autos but fortunately recognized them.

A true squib in a semi auto will not cycle the slide, so you really need to miss the squib altogether and compound that error by trying to clear the malfunction to run into problems. Shooting fast isn't an issue if you hit a squib.

Not trying to downplay the risk, but in autos and revolvers both missing the squib is usually only one of two mistakes made before a kaboom happens.

Also, throw out the powder cop. It's useless. If you can look at the powder cop you can look in the case. I use an RCBS lockout die. I had never had it lock up in over 10,000 rounds and was about to retire it when I had an empty case lock the press using Trailboss. Probably would have caught it, but the die caught it first.

Either get the RCBS lockout die or the new electronic powder check from Hornady.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Trail boss is actually a pretty crappy powder for jacketed bullets. I know this because I've shot a ridiculous number of .38 Special rounds loaded with jacketed bullets and Trailboss.

If you're looking for a powder that yields consistent results and fills a significant portion of a .38 case, try Blue Dot.

 

[Bendad97]

This is why I am a single stage man for life.