Firearms Safety course rip-offs

[News Shooter]

Firearms Safety course rip-offs-UPDATE!!

I have to vent on this. A woman and her sister came into the store looking for a pistol. She was recently divorced and although she didn't say so, I think there is a fear factor involved.

Both the women were obviously and totally clueless as I pointed them to a .22 to get started. They didn't know the difference between a wheel gun and a semi-automatic to give you an example. I wound up giving her a firearms 101 lecture, safety, operation, etc. She decided on a P-22 and gave me her Class LTC. At some point in the conversation she volunteered that she had never shot a gun before.

I was incredulous and asked about her safety course and she told me the guy played a video tape, showed them a gun and that was it.

I sold it to her but I have felt guilty ever since and also fearful that she might get hurt. I told her to please not shoot the gun until she joins a club and gets someone there to help or take another course which she said she was going to do.(Smarter than most)

Anyway, this whole thing really pisses me off and hats off to those of you who do it right and a pox on those who just trying to cop a c-note.

 

[Another_David]

That sucks. I used to work with a guy that had a Class A LTC ALP and admitted he had never fired a handgun because the instructor skipped the firing range part of the course. He asked if i could take him shooting before he bought a handgun.

I took my course at the Sig Academy and we shot both S&W revolvers as well as Sig autoloaders so we'd be familiar with both types of handguns.

I get a restricted license and my co-worker is ALP; fricken Massachusetts!

At risk of sounding like my 5th grade teacher, all I can say is if you take a course be sure the instructor does his/her job otherwise you're only cheating yourself. I mean you PAY for the course, you might as well get to put some lead down range! To simplify it further: if you course is not at a shooting range, don't take that course.

 

[FITH]

Oh... the Home safety course! Which course did she take?? Basic Pistol..or Home safety..(assuming it was a NRA course)

 

[Len-2A Training]

Sorry, but you need to be AWARE that at least one of the APPROVED COURSES does NOT require any range time at all!

It's an NRA course, state approved for LTC.

Many instructors who teach it include range time, but it is NOT A COURSE REQUIREMENT!

P.S. When I got my first LTC in 1976, nobody required courses, I had never handled a handgun before and bought my first guns "by myself". I did join a club immediately, but after being handed the key, I went home got my gear and went back there to shoot (unsupervised). I asked for and got plenty of tips from bullseye shooters at the club, but no formal training for many years. It all depends on the individual.

 

[News Shooter]

it was the NRA basic pistol course.

I understand range time is not required and I am loathe to suggest government getting any further involved in our lives, but IF we're going to be required to take these stupid course and pay all this $ for them, then it seems to me it ought to be included.

Ideally, you should just be able to walk into a store and buy the damned thing

 

[kevin9]

I took the NRA basic pistol course. It did not have any range time, but the instructor was quite thorough and brought in several different handguns as teaching aids. There was a test at the end. Anyone who comes through that course without a good basic head knowledge of the handguns, including all the things you mentioned.

It sounds to me that there is a very dishonest "instructor" out there. If they are claiming to teach the NRA Basic Pistol course I wonder if there is any reporting mechanism. This kind of crap gives gun owners a bad name.

 

[News Shooter]

I guess I need to drill down a little further. I'm not saying these are a rip-off per se. They are just doing the bare minimum to get by and creating a lowest common denominator situation. Many people taking these courses in order to get their license are long time shooters. But there are plenty of people in those courses who have never fired a gun before and it seems to me that playing a video tape and sending them home is kind of pointless. They'll forget everything in the tape in 24 hours and still be afraid of handguns like this woman is.

A lot of this is my sincere worry that she really could wind up getting hurt, although she seems smarter than that. That's just my guilt trip.

 

[kevin9]

I guess I need to drill down a little further. I'm not saying these are a rip-off per se. They are just doing the bare minimum to get by and creating a lowest common denominator situation. Many people taking these courses in order to get their license are long time shooters. But there are plenty of people in those courses who have never fired a gun before and it seems to me that playing a video tape and sending them home is kind of pointless. They'll forget everything in the tape in 24 hours and still be afraid of handguns like this woman is.

I totally understand you. If the course the woman in question took was supposed to be the NRA Basic Pistol course then IMNSHO there is fraud going on. As I understand it there are minimum instruction standards, such as the test at the end, that do not appear to have been met in this case.

A lot of this is my sincere worry that she really could wind up getting hurt, although she seems smarter than that. That's just my guilt trip.

I hear ya. Hopefully she will hook up with some responsible shooters and continue her education.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I guess I need to drill down a little further. I'm not saying these are a rip-off per se. They are just doing the bare minimum to get by and creating a lowest common denominator situation. Many people taking these courses in order to get their license are long time shooters. But there are plenty of people in those courses who have never fired a gun before and it seems to me that playing a video tape and sending them home is kind of pointless. They'll forget everything in the tape in 24 hours and still be afraid of handguns like this woman is.

A lot of this is my sincere worry that she really could wind up getting hurt, although she seems smarter than that. That's just my guilt trip.

If she was cute, you should have offered to train her!

 

[News Shooter]

If she was cute, you should have offered to train her!

Unfortunately, she had a face tht would make the train take a dirt road.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Unfortunately, she had a face tht would make the train take a dirt road.

Oh well, I guess she's on her own then!

 

[JimConway]

NRA courses to get a LTC

Massachusetts accepts 2 NRA courses for a LTC. They are Home Firearms Safety (4 hours with no shooting) and Basic Pistol (10 hours with about 2 hours of shooting). The NRA has a long, very specific, course outline for each of these courses.
The course that News Shooter mentioned did not and could not meet either the state or the NRA criteria. As one example, both of these courses require that the student handle, load and unload a variety of firearms. For the Home Firearm safety course they are required to handle rifles, shotguns and handguns. Both of these courses require a discussion of specific aspects of the Mass firearms law.

As an example, a Home Firearm Safety Class that Ken Maurer and I recently ran took 5 hours for the class and we conducted handgun training ( which was not a part of the official class) for an additional 3 hours.

I am well aware of a number of less than savory NRA instructors that sell the students a bill of goods and do not deliver. In most cases they charge full price for the class.

If either the NRA or the Mass State Police ever find out that this is going, a lot of folks could lose their Licenses to Carry. There was a licence mill in Kentucky, I think, where the instructor lost his licence to teach and all of his students lost their carry licences and had to pay for and retake the required class.

 

[FITH]

+1

 

[Cross-X]

I took the NRA basic pistol course. It did not have any range time, but the instructor was quite thorough and brought in several different handguns as teaching aids. There was a test at the end. Anyone who comes through that course without a good basic head knowledge of the handguns, including all the things you mentioned.

It sounds to me that there is a very dishonest "instructor" out there. If they are claiming to teach the NRA Basic Pistol course I wonder if there is any reporting mechanism. This kind of crap gives gun owners a bad name.

Kevin, if you took NRA Basic Pistol and did not get any range time, your instructor was not following the lesson plans, which require students to fire from bench rest, one-handed, and two-handed.

The range time occurs after students have been shown how to load, unload, and tenets of marksmanship, and have loaded and practiced with training/dummy rounds in the classroom.

If your instructor didn't take you to the range during NRA Basic Pistol, he was either lazy, uninformed, ill-trained, or a little bit all of the above.

Sadly, this is skipping of steps is not all that unusual for some unscrupulous NRA Instructors.

NRA Basic Pistol is, at a minimum, a ten hour course. There is lots to do during that time.

 

[Cross-X]

it was the NRA basic pistol course.

I understand range time is not required and I am loathe to suggest government getting any further involved in our lives, but IF we're going to be required to take these stupid course and pay all this $ for them, then it seems to me it ought to be included.

Wrong.

See my post earlier in this thread.

Darius Arbabi

 

[News Shooter]

Oh well, I guess she's on her own then!

I have to tell you that I have felt so badly about selling her that gun that it really doesn't matter what she looks like. That was mean of me to make fun of her, she could do the same about me. I just am really concerned about her. I believe she is going to take my advice and take another course, but I'm going to try to reach her and offer my limited assistance if not.

 

[rscalzo]

Kevin, if you took NRA Basic Pistol and did not get any range time, your instructor was not following the lesson plans, which require students to fire from bench rest, one-handed, and two-handed.

As it was pointed out, range time is mandatory in the NRA Basic Pistol Course outline.

Our club extends the minimum time as we teach the course over a two day period. Not only is the normal bench, one and two handed firing taught, during the selection portion, all of the instructors bring in a wide range of handguns and the club supplies the ammo which allows the students to try anything from a 22lr up to a 45ACP.

I think it is a great deal for only $60.00.

 

[kevin9]

Kevin, if you took NRA Basic Pistol and did not get any range time, your instructor was not following the lesson plans, which require students to fire from bench rest, one-handed, and two-handed.

The range time occurs after students have been shown how to load, unload, and tenets of marksmanship, and have loaded and practiced with training/dummy rounds in the classroom.

If your instructor didn't take you to the range during NRA Basic Pistol, he was either lazy, uninformed, ill-trained, or a little bit all of the above.

Sadly, this is skipping of steps is not all that unusual for some unscrupulous NRA Instructors.

NRA Basic Pistol is, at a minimum, a ten hour course. There is lots to do during that time.

Thanks for the info. I do have to say that I felt like I certainly got my moneys worth. I don't recall exactly how long it was, but it was at least 6 hours and probably more like 8. If it was supposed to include range time then I would doubly recommend the real course as well worth the money.

p.s. Most of the people in my class were military police taking the course to primarily just to satisfy MA's requirements. They appeared to be good students; attentive and learning some things, particularly related to MA laws.

 

[Cross-X]

Hear are a couple of the more common shortcomings of some Massachusetts instructors' NRA Basic Pistol Courses:

Failing to teach Massachusetts' firearms laws, including topics such as proper secure storage, childproofing, and the like.

Trying to teach the course with guns .38 Special, 9 mm, and larger. When asked why, instuctors have told me, "That's all I have. You don't think I'm going to buy a .22 semi auto and .22 revolver just so I can teach the course, do you?"

 

[Lugnut]

I have to tell you that I have felt so badly about selling her that gun that it really doesn't matter what she looks like. That was mean of me to make fun of her, she could do the same about me. I just am really concerned about her. I believe she is going to take my advice and take another course, but I'm going to try to reach her and offer my limited assistance if not.

You are good man News Shooter, you're doing a good thing... for her, yourself and ultimately all of us. I commend you.

 

[Lugnut]

Cut directly from the www.nra.org:




Whether you are a new gun owner or shooter or hunter in search of training, NRA's Education & Training Division is here to help you find a course to meet your needs.
If you are an Instructor or Training Counselor, click here to have your NRA course added to this list. Your course will be posted within five business days.


Course Descriptions:
Basic Instructor Training: 6 hours.
Basic Rifle: 14 hours. FIRST STEPS Rifle: 3+ hour orientation.
Basic Pistol: 10 hours. FIRST STEPS Pistol: 3+ hour orientation.
Basic Shotgun: 10 hours. FIRST STEPS Shotgun: 3+ hour orientation.
Personal Protection in the Home: 8 hours.
Personal Protection Outside of the Home: 14 hours.
Home Firearm Safety: 4 hours.
Muzzleloader Training for rifle (12 hours), pistol (12 hours), or shotgun (10 hours).
Range Safety Officer: 9 hours.
Metallic Cartridge Reloading: 8 hours.
Shotgun Cartridge Reloading: 8 hours.

 

[Adam_MA]

Damn!

When I took my class, the instructor had me shoot a .22 semi, revolver, then after I finished my qualifying targets, he had me shoot a 38 special, and then his BHP, so I could get a feel for shooting larger calibers.

 

[Chris]

Riverside runs the Home Firearm Safety.

We don't do it in 4 hours, in order to get the material in, it usually runs 6.5 hours. (sometimes closer to 7 hours depending on the quantity of questions)

We stress many many times during the class that the course is offered so that people can apply for a license and that we strongly recommend taking a shooting class before buying any hardware. Due to the time it takes to get a license, this provides the student time to get more training so that when the license finally arrives, they can be ready to make a well educated choice in their own gun.

Of course, not everyone takes that advice or believes that such advice applies to them. Such choices are sad, but it is their right as an adult to make. I can only hope that the basic safety given and strictly enforced in class sinks in.

Since most states do not require ANY class, the fact that everyone HAS to take a course regardless of their personal knowledge means that there is a market for an entry level low-cost course. (we charge $50 for non-membersand not only provide the NRA materials, but also a very large packet with legal references and "where to go from here" advice.) However, I feel that the instructors have a responsibility to tell the student that the course satisfies the legal requirement, but does NOT really provide any more skill than being able to safely store an unloaded gun in the home.

That said, I've heard plenty of such courses which are NOT cheap and provide little or no coverage of many of the important topics.

It really has more to do with the instructor's presentation and the expectation of the student.

I do not normally take any phone calls or e-mail for sign up, but when I do (ie, our Training Councilor is on vacation) I usually spend some time making sure that the student understands the limitations and to set proper expectations for our courses. I know that Walter does a similar 'screening'.

Given the choice of not offering HFS and seeing people provided poor instruction or offing a good HFS and explaining clearly the limitations of such a class, I'll take the second option every time.

That said, when I had to take my "Basic" class way back in 1998, I took Walter's 6 week NRA Basic Pistol mainly because I figured if I was going to have to take something, I'd take something useful. (please note that I had already taken LFI1 and Gunsight's Defensive Pistol course before this) While I did find a lot of the material review, the 6 weeks of marksmanship coaching did improve my shooting. (found some bad habits that were not caught in earlier classes)

The 6-week course is every Monday night for 6 weeks where each night is focused on a specific marksmanship skill. The nice thing about this is if we find a student that needs some extra work, or requests some extra work, we have a week between classes to do that. Most of the class is .22LR handguns, but on the last night, we pull out larger calibers up to .44 Magnum so that students can try all kinds of things. It is actually the ammo costs on this last night that makes up the bulk of the cost of the course. Another neat way to how Walther built this class is that we teach marksmanship by using the National Match format. Thus, the student gets used to the commands and leaves the class with a real practical competition experience. (not to mention letting them see that they CAN shot 5 shots in 10 seconds and actually hit the paper)

In the end, I had so much fun in class that I took Walter's Instructor class and started teaching with his team.

Don't think that it's only basic classes where people are getting screwed. I know of at least one "Training School" that runs NRA instructor courses and might cover the material, but don't do anything to make good instructors.

Teaching is as much an art as it is a science. Some are good at it and some are not. I know I have to prepare my presentations and hope that my delivery doesn't sound as scripted as it really is. It took me a lot of practice to get used to speaking in a strong and clear voice. It took me several courses to really get used to looking around the class as I speak to see if everyone is following the material. Give me a topic I have prepared for and I'll do an OK job. Ask me to cover something I have not prepared for and I might get all the points from the book, but it won't be anything as well presented as I'd like.

So, you end up with two types of "bad" instructors.

1) Those that don't care if students get the material they need. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who see gun classes as a means of income, not as a way of helping people. These are NOT teachers.

2) Those that are really unable to present the data to a student in a manner that the student can easily learn. I find so many really talented people fall into this category. They can shoot, but have a real hard time in the presenting of the material in an instruction environment. These are also not teachers, but not because they have the wrong attitude.

Finding a good instructor who is also skilled in the subject they are instructing is a rare combination. And very worth seeking out once you get beyond the basics. I've been in courses with all kinds of instructors, and the BEST of them occurred when the instructor really fired up the class to want to learn.

 

[JimConway]

Chris
I think that we agree on what the courses should and must cover. It is a shame that all of us must put up with bad instructors. There is another kind of bad instructor that, in my mind, is the worst. This individual is in it for the money and spends the least amount of time and effort necessary to get the dollars. They cheat the students, the NRA and the State police.

 

[TonyDedo]

When I took my beginner course, I knew nothing regarding what was required, or what to expect. I found a course listed on the NRA website that coincided with my schedule, so I signed up. I spent about 6 hours sitting in some guy's dirty basement, listening to him read out of an NRA binder and flip slides on an overhead projector. I didn't once fire a gun, touch a gun, or even SEE a gun during the course. I didn't learn a thing about types of guns, shooting techniques, loading or unloading, or gun laws. It was about as close to a certificate mill as you could find.

Everything I've learned in my first year as a gun owner has come from Jim Conway and NEShooters, Appleseed, and you fine folks. Even without the law telling me to do so, I made an active effort to seek out those who had something to teach and learn everything I can from them, and I will continue to do so until I'm no longer able to hold a firearm. And I will teach anyone who is interested everything I have learned. I think it's part of being a responsible gun owner.

 

[Nickle]

I have to tell you that I have felt so badly about selling her that gun that it really doesn't matter what she looks like. That was mean of me to make fun of her, she could do the same about me. I just am really concerned about her. I believe she is going to take my advice and take another course, but I'm going to try to reach her and offer my limited assistance if not.

That would be the proper thing to do.

Besides, you may be able to get her to give up who the klown was that trained her.

Show her the requirements of the course when you do, so she knows you're right.

You may just make a good friend of her. I know it will speak well of the shop where you work.

 

[Nickle]

Everything I've learned in my first year as a gun owner has come from Jim Conway and NEShooters, Appleseed, and you fine folks. Even without the law telling me to do so, I made an active effort to seek out those who had something to teach and learn everything I can from them, and I will continue to do so until I'm no longer able to hold a firearm. And I will teach anyone who is interested everything I have learned. I think it's part of being a responsible gun owner.

Aw, you just like to shoot (a LOT). AMHIK, folks, I've seen him shoot. (And I wouldn't want to be downrage, either.)

 

[MaverickNH]

I can't think of a right that is more dangerous to exercise freely, without any permit, training or proper equipment, than the 2nd Amendment.

Unless it were the 1st Amendment, with countless millions killed for what they read, write, say and worship.

Or maybe the notion of having any rights all all to exercise without approval of a dictator, who will deprive, torture, murder or reward at whim.

So to stay on topic, I'd say don't feel too bad about selling that gun to the lady. The statistics say you're way, way more likley to prevent any harm to innocents than cause one.

Maybe some laws written by fearful men were stretched by someone other than you, but you greatly supported the natural right to self-defense for all.

 

[JimConway]

Amen to the need for training. I saw a comment yesterday, to the effect that if all the rounds fired in armed confrontations had hit their intended targets there would be no people left on this planet. The comment may not be far off the mark

 

[Chris]

The quote I was told many moons ago goes something like this:

Most men believe they were born skilled drivers, expert shooters, and great lovers. The smart ones seek out those who are truly great to make it happen.