FA-10'S and Chicago ruling

Zappa

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drgrant

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Are we the only ones left that have to register firearms?

CA does and there are other states which might have de-facto registration because of the way they report firearm transfers. MA is more like "that" than anything else because registration isn't even compulsory here, reporting of transfers, is. At least in MA there are lot of wallhacks to the law and it's rarely, if ever, enforced.

-Mike
 

Serapis

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you are not registering firearms, you are recording a firearms transaction

From the FA-10 form:
Registration
Use this option if 1) you are a Massachusetts resident and you obtained a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun from out of state 2) you recently moved to Massachusetts and you wish to record ownership of a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun or 3) you possess a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun and there is no record of the weapon on file with the Firearms Records Bureau.

How is that not a registration?
 

Serapis

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If Ma. can and does ignore the SCOTUS rulings in Heller and McDonald, why would they worry about an Ill. law?

True, but I was under the assumption from that article that they changed their laws based off the federal supreme court ruling. Did I interrupt that wrong
 

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True, but I was under the assumption from that article that they changed their laws based off the federal supreme court ruling. Did I interrupt that wrong

Chicago has changed their laws while kicking and screaming every inch of the way. They are desperately trying to barely follow the letter of the law while totally screwing the intent.

I laugh every time I read that MA only records transactions. They can call it whatever they want, but it still amounts to registration. If the point of the system is make sure that both parties to a transaction are properly licensed, why is there any need to retain that information in a database? When the information is submitted they could review it. If both parties pass muster, destroy the info at that point. The fact that you can contact them to find out what guns they think you own pretty much tells anyone with two brain cells that it a registration scheme.

The second indication that it is defacto registration is if you build a gun. Buy an AR lower. You own it. Build it up into a rifle and the state says you have to record the "transfer." Really? What transfer? You originally owned it and you still own it. No freakin' transfer has occurred. Some of our elected officials maintain, with a straight face, that we don't have a gun registry in the PRM.

Right. It takes a peculiar kind of mindset to screw with reality like that.
 
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Chicago has changed their laws while kicking and screaming every inch of the way. They are desperately trying to barely follow the letter of the law while totally screwing the intent.

I laugh every time I read that MA only records transactions. They can call it whatever they want, but it still amounts to registration. If the point of the system is make sure that both parties to a transaction are properly licensed, why is there any need to retain that information in a database? When the information is submitted they could review it. If both parties pass muster, destroy the info at that point. The fact that you can contact them to find out what guns they think you own pretty much tells anyone with two brain cells that it a registration scheme.

The second indication that it is defacto registration is if you build a gun. Buy an AR lower. You own it. Build it up into a rifle and the state says you have to record the "transfer." Really? What transfer? You originally owned it and you still own it. No freakin' transfer has occurred. Some of our elected officials maintain, with a straight face, that we don't have a gun registry in the PRM.

Right. It takes a peculiar kind of mindset to screw with reality like that.

Ya but your using intelligence and logic, im not sure if that will hold up in a MA court of law[thinking]
 

Zappa

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I remember back prior to the 1998 changes in the Mass laws, private sales between individuals were done with "Blue Cards".
Many of them got destroyed in the flood at 1010 Comm Ave, so there are plenty of guns out there that have been legally owned for decades, and aren't in the current database.
There was also the "white" card, which was used to report acquisitions of long arms from out of state.
(I still have one kicking around here somewhere)
It clearly said "Voluntary Firearm Registration Card".
Unless I somehow misinterpreted the words "voluntary" and "registration", then that makes plenty more guns out there that the state has no record of, and won't have any record of until the original pre-1998 owners (or their heirs) goes to sell or trade them within Mass.
 

center442

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I remember back prior to the 1998 changes in the Mass laws, private sales between individuals were done with "Blue Cards".
Many of them got destroyed in the flood at 1010 Comm Ave, so there are plenty of guns out there that have been legally owned for decades, and aren't in the current database.
There was also the "white" card, which was used to report acquisitions of long arms from out of state.
(I still have one kicking around here somewhere)
It clearly said "Voluntary Firearm Registration Card".
Unless I somehow misinterpreted the words "voluntary" and "registration", then that makes plenty more guns out there that the state has no record of, and won't have any record of until the original pre-1998 owners (or their heirs) goes to sell or trade them within Mass.

I had never heard of the white cards. I remember the blue cards. I've read that some of the blue cards were entered into the system, but that many were destroyed or were illegible. I've always believed that one of the main reasons for pushing the electronic FA-10 forms was that it does away with the labor (and errors) of human data entry. That's precisely why I prefer the paper forms. If they can't determine if the person wrote a '5' or an 'S' that's fine by me. Let them work to get erroneous info into their useless and flawed database.

Just another blemish on the face of the "Massachusetts Miracle." [puke]
 
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It is a registration, I'm with you on that. Show me where in the MA laws were it says firearms must be registered

Its not in there. It does say transfers of firearms ownership must be recorded

If you go to Kittery and buy a long rifle (non-scary AWB compliant), then bring it across the MA border and filling out the FA-10...you're not recording a transfer of ownership. The transfer occurred in Maine--it was yours the second you paid for it.

Editted for clarification.
 
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If you go to Kittery and buy a long rifle (non-scary AWB compliant), then bring it across the MA border...you're not recording a transfer of ownership. The transfer occurred in Maine--it was yours the second you paid for it.
Exactly, Tyke, and that is the reason why I refuse to do FA-10s. Call me a felon, call me what you wish. Eventually, with the way Massachusetts gun laws are going, we are all going to be (at least technically) felons at some point in time. My girlfriend already is, because she carries unlicensed pepper spray. Maybe I am just one step ahead of the game!
 
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I always thought when you built up a rifle from scratch or a lower you had an obligatikn to fill out an FA-10. Is this bad word.

Mike

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I always thought when you built up a rifle from scratch or a lower you had an obligatikn to fill out an FA-10. Is this bad word.

Mike

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By all means, fill out the FA-10 and submit it. When your rifle becomes illegal with the stroke of a pen, the LEOs know the exact address to come to confiscate it. They will thank you for helping to make their job easier!
 

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I always thought when you built up a rifle from scratch or a lower you had an obligatikn to fill out an FA-10. Is this bad word.

Mike

Mike, this is true per MGL. Some scofflaws don't care to abide by the law and I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with telling others to break the law w/o specifically telling them that they would be doing so. At one time this forum had a rule that we don't post info on breaking the law and posts that did so were dealt with by the Mods (and the people that posted them were also dealt with).
 
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Len can you give me a citation for the law, I'd be interested in reading it.

As far as what to do in practice I'm not looking for advice, I'm a big boy and can make my own decisions when it comes to that.

Mike

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Mike,

It has been the interpretation of C. 140 S. 128B at least since 1998 that the phrase ". . . or obtains a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth . . ." includes building one up for the first time, since it is not a gun until able to fire a round EOPS has interpreted this to mean that you "obtained" one by assembling parts.

I merely convey the law or current interpretations of same. I really never care what individuals do with that info, as long as they don't mis-inform the unsuspecting to do something illegal. The informed can make their own decisions.


Len can you give me a citation for the law, I'd be interested in reading it.

As far as what to do in practice I'm not looking for advice, I'm a big boy and can make my own decisions when it comes to that.

Mike
 

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Thanks for the clarification. Are you aware of any case law pertaining to this issue?

Mike

Mike,

I don't attempt to track case law, Boudrie does more of that . . .

District Court cases are computerized ONLY on local computers located in each clerk's office, no centralized way to access them outside of a LE agency. Almost everything is plea bargained away anyway so you'd have to know the initial charges, case name, check the final disposition (probably pled to a totally different "crime") and do all that in person at the courthouse.
 

Serapis

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Number 2 is not law. That's just a suggestion, therefore we don't have 'legal' registration of firearms.

#3 is NOT required either. I answered these questions in another thread yesterday IIRC.

So its not law for these options, but is law for the other options (like building from scratch or purchasing out of state)? Honest question. Because I thought it was law for everything and nothing was exempt.

Not trying to be an ass, but are you stating the we do not have a firearms registration here in MA? If so, I'd say you're wrong. Especially with the intro of the online FA-10 system that was made to streamline and reduce errors.
 

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So its not law for these options, but is law for the other options (like building from scratch or purchasing out of state)? Honest question. Because I thought it was law for everything and nothing was exempt.

Not trying to be an ass, but are you stating the we do not have a firearms registration here in MA? If so, I'd say you're wrong. Especially with the intro of the online FA-10 system that was made to streamline and reduce errors.

OK, let me answer this by going step-by-step thru the law logically . . .

- MGL REQUIRES an FA-10 within 7 DAYS of acquiring (and they define building as "acquiring") a gun in MA. (Fact)
- To file an FA-10 form you MUST have a LTC/FID number. (Fact)
- If you are a new resident, how can you get an LTC/FID number within 7 days to satisfy the law? (You can't - Fact)
- Therefore the MGL allows an EXEMPTION to registration for people moving into MA with guns. They didn't do it to be nice, but because requiring it would require someone to violate the law by filing late, thus the exemption.

Now to do the same wrt filling voids in the state database . . .

- The law requires us to file FA-10s. We are allowed to do this via 1st Class Mail, no receipt received. There is no mechanism by which FRB notifies us that they received it, that they scanned it or that it was scanned accurately (anyone that has ever dealt with OCR will understand this).
- If an employee had an accident and coffee was spilled on your form, if the scanner feed mechanism shredded your form, if it had to be hand-typed into the system and was mis-keyed, etc. There is no way that you'd ever know this.
- Old FA-10 forms (blue cards for FTF or old tissue paper forms were only scanned from a certain date forward (I was told 1986). Some blue cards were destroyed in a flood, thus never scanned. I'm sure that the handwriting (many were written cursively not printed) resulted in some interesting OCR results!
- The only mechanism for finding out what the state THINKS you own is to fill out a form, get it Notarized, pay $20 and wait a few months for the results. This is STRICTLY VOLUNTARY and I see no reason to EVER DO THIS! If you do this and find voids, you are free to register your missing guns . . . but doing so implies that you are in violation of the law requiring registration of acquisitions within 7 days and you are supplying self-incriminating evidence if someone ever wanted to prosecute you. You gain nothing and stand some legal risk of prosecution, regardless of how small.

I hope the above clarifies some of this for some folks.
 

Serapis

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Thanks for the info. Apparently you are the authority on this. I really don't want to go on and on with you on this thread.

The original point of this thread was to show Chicago realized they could not have a registry. And MA seems to think they are allowed to have one be it de facto or whatever else you want to call it.
 

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Thanks for the info. Apparently you are the authority on this. I really don't want to go on and on with you on this thread.

The original point of this thread was to show Chicago realized they could not have a registry. And MA seems to think they are allowed to have one be it de facto or whatever else you want to call it.

It's written in MGL and the FA-10 goes back to ~1968 from what I'm told (I got into the game in 1976 and it existed then). It wasn't computerized until 1997-8.

If you ask most cops (who aren't "gun people") or legislators, they will tell you that we have a gun registry. What we have is a half-assed registry of some guns and some transactions.
 

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NICS records it all anyway. If you had a background check when you bought your gun the government has a record of it
 
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This whole question of MA registration....
Another good reason to be a MA refugee.
I understand Lens statements and "registering" guns when you move to as not necessary, etc.
But why, on the upper left hand corner of the serialized FA-10's, do you have:
"Check one if reporting
Loss
Theft
*Registration*
Personal transfer"?
Isn't the official MA documentation regarding firearms stating that registration actually exists?
 
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