Dwarven1, Doobie, LenS and other Jews should have told me!!

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I just finished reading the book the "Mitzvah" that came with my starter package from the JPFO.

At first is went a little slow, like two or three chapters. Then it picked up, and started getting into some meat like Ruby Ridge and Waco, TX, and even had up to date mention of clowns like Lon Horiuchi who along with other murderers, work for our gubmint agencies.

If any of you haven't read "Mitzvah" yet, I strongly suggest you do. And Doobie, now I really want to see your copy of the "Gang"

The question I took from the book is, how can a Jew be a liberal, or for that matter, how can any of us be a liberal, and allow our freedoms to be snatched by a nefarious cadre of insiders who seek all power for themselves, and are willing to stomp on the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights to do it.

When you read a book like this, and it brings in Chicago Politicians, FBI, BATFE, terrorists and the Patriot Act, together with McVeigh, Randy Weaver and and Thomas Dodd (Dodd senior).... it's like a revelation.

Oh yeah, I also learned that December 15 is "Bill of Rights Day", and why you Appleseed shooters have special regard for the date of April 20, 1776.

It was a great book, and great to have this new understanding. I have to read the book "Death Wish" too.
Comments from anyone interested are welcome. I wonder if this post will put me on the "watch list", or if I've been on it all along??? [wink]
 
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Guys, if would only know how many times I asked myself this question.
I am a Jew that was born and raised in Soviet Union, it is one of the reasons why I love United States and I cherish our Constitution. I believe that Bill of Rights is the best that free world came out with, and Second Amendment is as important, or may be even more important that any others.
I also know that Jews were among the ones that brought Hitler in to power. We all should learn from history, but some of us do not.
So I am asking myself another question: Am I smarter than David Axelrod, master mind behind Obama’s victory, or Chuck Schumer, or Dianne Feinstein?
I don’t think so. So what there problem is, they just don’t get it, until something else happens, like it happened before.
 
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Guys, if would only know how many times I asked myself this question.
I am a Jew that was born and raised in Soviet Union, it is one of the reasons why I love United States and I cherish our Constitution. I believe that Bill of Rights is the best that free world came out with, and Second Amendment is as important, or may be even more important that any others.
I also know that Jews were among the ones that brought Hitler in to power. We all should learn from history, but some of us do not.
So I am asking myself another question: Am I smarter than David Axelrod, master mind behind Obama’s victory, or Chuck Schumer, or Dianne Feinstein?
I don’t think so. So what there problem is, they just don’t get it, until something else happens, like it happened before.

Thats a powerful statement, Arbella13. I've always believed that when the last survivors of the Holocaust were dead that the history, and its lesson, would be cast aside and forgotten.

I can't get over the feeling that we are entering a dark period in human history.
 
It boggles my mind too Pilgrim.

As a Jew, it's been boggling my mind since I was in HS and read a lot of books about WWII and the horrors of the Holocaust!

Even when I was in Israel (twice), I couldn't get a conversation going wrt firearms. I've asked a former female soldier (native Israeli), a few Israeli Police Superintendents (most were ex-pats however), etc.

I'll never really figure it out.
 
No Jewish person should be anti-gun.

Maybe I'll have to setup a viewing of "The Gang" at some point.
 
The question I took from the book is, how can a Jew be a liberal, or for that matter, how can any of us be a liberal, and allow our freedoms to be snatched by a nefarious cadre of insiders who seek all power for themselves, and are willing to stomp on the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights to do it.

My favored argument for the preservation of 2nd amendment rights is quite close to that, and it works equally well on nearly all ends of the political spectrum. Why would you trust the government to be the only entity who has weapons? I sure don't, and my views are quite liberal (of the little l, classical type).

I want to protect all our rights, including our 2nd amendment rights. Also, firearms are the great equalizer. What other device truly puts a 100lb woman on level with a muscled 200lb attacker? None that I know of.

But...
So called "Conservatives," like Pat Robertson, Sarah Palin, George W. Bush, Rush Limbaugh, and the base of the GOP desire to restrict my rights in ways that are just as egregious as taking away my guns, if not more so.

These people would like to make it a crime for me to use contraception, to get an abortion if I'm raped, to own a dildo, or to sleep with someone they don't approve of. Furthermore these people would insist on substituting religion for science in Biology class. (What's next? The Sun circles the Earth? The Earth is only 6000 yrs old?) They would block access to correct information about sexual and reproductive health and insist on teaching abstinence only sex ed in schools, which has been proven many times to increase teen pregnancy rates and the spread of STIs, not to mention government mandated lies about how condoms "don't prevent" pregnancy or AIDS.

And those are not conservative views. They are radical theocratic views. They are no different than the Taliban and any other jihadists... the Taliban in a Jesus-suit.

So who am I going to vote for? The guy who wants to "take away my guns" or the maniacs who want to take us back to the 12th century? It was called the "Dark Ages" for a reason, and I, for one, have absolutely no desire to live in such a place.

I can fight Obama on the single issue of gun control.

I cannot fight willfully ignorant theocrats with no interest in reason or facts, because they believe GOD has spoken to them, personally.
 
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Liberals are socialist period.

It doesn't matter where they come from.

They don't make distinctions until they're in control. Then they do...
 
People are generally short sighted and the moment past the present is nothing worth considering. You can't fault just those who are judists in this regard; many other groups that have come along after trials and tribulations also forget their history and strifes; as once eventually assimilated dont want to rock the boat.
 
Guys, if would only know how many times I asked myself this question.
I am a Jew that was born and raised in Soviet Union, it is one of the reasons why I love United States and I cherish our Constitution. I believe that Bill of Rights is the best that free world came out with, and Second Amendment is as important, or may be even more important that any others.


I also know that Jews were among the ones that brought Hitler in to power.

That's a pretty inflammatory statement and something I've never read in any book about Hitler's rise. (I've read many)

Please cite some specifics regarding this claim. You say you're a Jew, but frankly that statement sounds like it came out of a holocaust denier's handbook.
 
That's a pretty inflammatory statement and something I've never read in any book about Hitler's rise. (I've read many)

Please cite some specifics regarding this claim. You say you're a Jew, but frankly that statement sounds like it came out of a holocaust denier's handbook.

Especially since IIRC Hitlers rise to power was on the premise that the Jewish people were evil and Hitler was the only one capable of stopping us.
 
I didn't mean to offend anyone. I am trying to remember where I got it from. I think I learned about it when I was a teenager in Soviet Union. It has a chance of being commie propaganda.
I was just trying to use it as parallel to show that sometimes people are willing to 'cut the branch that they are sitting on'
 
And those are not conservative views. They are radical theocratic views. They are no different than the Taliban and any other jihadists... the Taliban in a Jesus-suit.

Agree. I don't at all support prohibition of embrionic stem cell studies, abortion bans, blocking acess to sex ed, teaching theology instead of science and so on. However, the American science must develope in order to keep up with the world progress. Prohibition of abortion will just lead to illegal clinics - it's a proven fact. Restriction on use of contraception won't pass because of strong Feminist movement. At the same time, gun ban is a reality. This is why, at this election and in all future ones, I voted and will vote for pro-gun candidates only, even if gun freedom is the only issue I agree with them.
 
A Holocaust would never happen if all Jews were armed. I am surprised that so few Jews understand this.

This is certainly true....

But there is more to this than we're touching on right now.

There is a cultural aversion to firearms among some American Jews. Certainly, this is my father's position, and that of his family. There are many theories on it's sources. I've never been fully convinced by any of them. I sat through classes on the Holocaust, desperate to know, "why did they just give in and go?" "Was there no resistance?" Well, of course there was but I didn't learn of it until later. I paid attention to the lessons of the holocaust. I wont' ever, ever be without arms. And no, I don't mean a pistol, no matter how big. I'll have a full Battle rifle, a Carbine, and a good side arm thank you as well as thousands of rounds. That's my take away from that class.

So why aren't more Jews armed. Certainly some are, but one could forgive Jews for playing the "holocaust card."

"Bill, that's a snappy new HK but do you really need 37 battle rifles?"
"Well, if only we had been armed in '39"
"there you go, playing the holocaust card. You just like guns, admit it."

Anyway. I'm going to bed
 
I sat through classes on the Holocaust, desperate to know, "why did they just give in and go?" "Was there no resistance?" Well, of course there was but I didn't learn of it until later. I paid attention to the lessons of the holocaust. I wont' ever, ever be without arms. And no, I don't mean a pistol, no matter how big. I'll have a full Battle rifle, a Carbine, and a good side arm thank you as well as thousands of rounds. That's my take away from that class.

So why aren't more Jews armed. Certainly some are, but one could forgive Jews for playing the "holocaust card."

"Bill, that's a snappy new HK but do you really need 37 battle rifles?"
"Well, if only we had been armed in '39"
"there you go, playing the holocaust card. You just like guns, admit it."

Anyway. I'm going to bed

What always shocked me in Holocaust pictures is how a large crowd of people is walking without any resistance to be starved to death and burned alive. Why did not they resist? OK, they were led by armed guards. But isn't a death from gunshot easier than turtures?
And, yes, back then I decided than I will rather be killed in fight than led to a slaughterhouse.
 
I think the main problem is it is too easy for people to ignore history, whether that history is the founding of this nation, or the persecution of entire races/classes of people often resulting from widespread disarmament. People conveniently forget even recent history- Ever have fun trying to convince people that a few pistols on the crew would have stopped 9/11? It was hard to do it back then, it's even harder to do it now, because people have a short attention span.

Another problem is that socialist brainwashing runs deep, and is often hard to undo. It's also difficult to get people to understand that sometimes a violent response is the only one that works; and the MSM saunters around avoiding this issue on a daily basis, so that isn't helping either- even when a LEO shoots a madman, the MSM is too busy talking about the madman and the damage he caused rather than talking about what the LEO did to stop him. Same thing even with the military- the MSM will prattle on about how some BG killed our fighting men and women with an IED or shooting at them, but they rarely will tell you anything about how a soldier saved the lives of others in their unit, or about how that soldier saved the lives of civilians, etc. That stuff -might- make page 5 in a paragraph, or get a 10 second sound bite. Then when we get to lowly civilians the MSM doesn't pay attention to us at all, unless we get killed by the BG, and even then, they're usually more concerned with the BG and his motives. Apparently when people fight back it isn't nearly as interesting to them.

So, at the end of it all, joe average watching the news with drool coming out of his/her mouth, are all thinking two things.... "guns are bad" and "all violence is bad" because they rarely see anything else.

Things would improve considerably if we could disable all television sets for a few months, for starters. (I'm only half joking here, too... ) I might also suggest that if kids were required to have anything more than a half assed knowledge of civics and US history, we might be a bit better off, too. (Not this revisionist crap where they try to retell history in some politically correct way. )

-Mike
 
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People conveniently forget even recent history- Ever have fun trying to convince people that a few pistols on the crew would have stopped 9/11? It was hard to do it back then, it's even harder to do it now, because people have a short attention span.
People react just funny to the suggestion that pilots or flight attendants should be armed. They say: "Oh, how can you have a gun on a plane? What if it fires accidentally? And anyways, in a case of a real hijack armed crew members will just kill passengers and destroy the plane with shooting instead of hitting attackers..."
Agree with the rest of the post, too.
 
In reading this thread, I thought I would see what I could find out about it, and discovered this link to an article that was interesting. Since I have never thought about this - I was eager to see what I might learn.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/04/why_are_jews_liberal.html

April 25, 2006
Why Are Jews Liberal?
By Dennis Prager

The most frequently asked question I receive from non-Jews about Jews is, why are Jews so liberal?

The question is entirely legitimate since Jews (outside of Israel) are indeed overwhelmingly liberal and disproportionately left of liberal as well. For example, other than blacks, no American group votes so lopsidedly for the Democratic Party. And the question is further sharpened given that traditional Jewish values are not leftist. That is why the more religiously involved the Jew, the less likely he is to be on the Left. The old saw, "There are two types of Jews -- those who believe Judaism is social justice and those who know Hebrew," contains more than a kernel of truth.

In no order of importance, here are six reasons:

1. Judaism is indeed preoccupied with social justice (as well as with holiness and personal morality), and many Jews believe that the only way to achieve a just society is through leftist policies.

2. More than any other major religion, Judaism has always been preoccupied with this world. The (secular) Encyclopedia Judaica begins its entry on "Afterlife" by noting that "Judaism has always affirmed belief in an afterlife." But the preoccupation of Judaism has been making this world a better place. That is why the Torah (the Five Books of Moses) is largely silent about the afterlife; and it is preoccupied with rejecting ancient Egyptian values. That value system was centered on the afterlife -- its bible was the Book of the Dead, and its greatest monuments, the pyramids, were tombs.

3. Most Jews are frightened by anything that connotes right wing -- such as the words "right-wing" and "conservative." Especially since the Holocaust, they think that threats to their security emanate from the Right only. (It is pointless to argue that Nazism stood for National Socialism and therefore was really a leftist ideology. Whether that is theoretically accurate doesn't matter; nearly everyone regards the Nazis as far Right, and, therefore, Jews fear the Right.) The fact that the Jews' best friends today are conservatives and the fact that the Left is the home of most of the Jews' enemies outside of the Muslim world have made little impact on Jews' psyches.

4. Liberal Jews fear most religion. They identify religion -- especially fundamentalist religion and especially Christianity -- with anti-Semitism. Jews are taught from birth about the horrors of the Holocaust, and of nearly 2,000 years of European, meaning Christian, anti-Semitism. They therefore tend to fear Christianity and believe that secularism guarantees their physical security. That is what animates the ACLU and its disproportionately Jewish membership, under the guise of concern with the Constitution and "separation of church and state" (words that do not appear in the Constitution), to fight all public expressions of Christianity in America.

5. Despite their secularism, Jews may be the most religious ethnic group in the world. The problem is that their religion is rarely Judaism; rather it is every "ism" of the Left. These include liberalism, socialism, feminism, Marxism and environmentalism. Jews involved in these movements believe in them with the same ideological fervor and same suspension of critical reason with which many religious people believe in their religion. It is therefore usually as hard to shake a liberal Jew's belief in the Left and in the Democratic Party as it is to shake an evangelical Christian's belief in Christianity. The big difference, however, is that the Christian believer acknowledges his Christianity is a belief, whereas the believer in liberalism views his belief as entirely the product of rational inquiry.

The Jews' religious fervor emanates from the origins of the Jewish people as a religious people elected by God to help guide humanity to a better future. Of course, the original intent was to bring humanity to ethical monotheism, God-based universal moral standards, not to secular liberalism or to feminism or to socialism. Leftist Jews have simply secularized their religious calling.

6. Liberal Jews fear nationalism. The birth of nationalism in Europe planted the secular seeds of the Holocaust (religious seeds had been planted by some early and medieval Church teachings and reinforced by Martin Luther). European nationalists welcomed all national identities except the Jews'. That is a major reason so many Jews identify primarily as "world citizens"; they have contempt for nationalism and believe that strong national identities, even in America, will exclude them.

Just as liberal Jews fear a resurgent Christianity despite the fact that contemporary Christians are the Jews' best friends, leftist Jews fear American nationalism despite the fact that Americans who believe in American exceptionalism are far more pro-Jewish and pro-Israel than leftist Americans. But most leftist Jews so abhor nationalism, they don't even like the Jews' nationalism (Zionism).

If you believe that leftist ideas and policies are good for America and for the world, then you are particularly pleased to know how deeply Jews -- with their moral passion, intellectual energies and abilities, and financial clout -- are involved with the Left. If, on the other hand, you believe that the Left is morally confused and largely a destructive force in America and the world, then the Jews' disproportionate involvement on the Left is nothing less than a tragedy -- for the world and especially for the Jews.
 
A Holocaust would never happen if all Jews were armed. I am surprised that so few Jews understand this.

I had a relative who once told me she would go into the cattle car. I told her I would have answered the door with a weapon and taken out as many of the bastards as I could.
 
After watching Hitler on the NatGeo channel last night you can see how they did it. The old saying 'when they came for the jews, I did nothing because I wasn't a jew, etc". The apathy affect, the ones who it didn't pertain to, ignored it, until it was their time, then it was too late.

I would have died in my doorway, smiling that I had killed even one of them.
 
I would have died in my doorway, smiling that I had killed even one of them.
What if those at your door were members of your local PD or U.S. servicemen ? Could you shoot someone who had the same beliefs as you but was ordered by someone above them to go house to house ? Most Americans know or have family members that are either LEO's or members of our armed services. I'm willing to bet many gun owners would have an extremely hard time even aiming a firearm at what they considered to be one of their own. How do people reading this thread feel about these questions?
 
I wouldn't dream of having the temerity, nor the audacity, to "explain" why so many Jews went (apparently) with little struggle to their demise.

Further, I know that if/when the time comes that such a thing should happen again, I will fight to the last drop of blood and I will bring righteous and disproportionate destruction on all who side against those whom I call family.

What I don't know, what you don't know, what none of us know is what it takes to fight alone. When they come to your door, it won't be a neighborhood at a time. They will take you/me, one by one. Family by family. Brave words notwithstanding, few will fight believing their safety ensured by dint of their last name.

The greatest failure of even armed, prepared Jews such as myself, a failure shared by so many people, is the lack of understanding of that day will look like. Real resistance is not stockpiling weapons in a safe. Real resistance is not blogging. Real resistance is knowing that there will be no rehearsal. There will be no grand fight. Our demise will happen one family at a time and thus real resistance, true preparation, is the knowledge that it's already too late when the knock comes on the door.

So, when you hear that knock on the door, fetch your rifle and your ammunition and begin killing. Do not stop until you have no more ammunition, till your knife is broken between the ribs of your oppressor and there are no stones within reach. Stand knee deep in the blood of anyone who would separate you from your family- pay no attention to the costume jewelry of the state, it's badges, boots, or any other validation trinkets. For when the knock comes your neighborhood, your life and your family are but dust- an illusion already fading in the morning light. Say your goodbyes, then turn your back on your love, embrace death and become it's emissary.

Never die alone. Clog the gate to hell with the souls of your oppressors.
 
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What if those at your door were members of your local PD or U.S. servicemen ? Could you shoot someone who had the same beliefs as you but was ordered by someone above them to go house to house ? Most Americans know or have family members that are either LEO's or members of our armed services. I'm willing to bet many gun owners would have an extremely hard time even aiming a firearm at what they considered to be one of their own. How do people reading this thread feel about these questions?

Confiscation isn't likely to pan out like that for the simple reason that it's probably the most costly way to confiscate all privately owned firearms.

Confiscation by the Dear Leader will include: 1. Revoking FFL licenses for superficial errors, 2. Levying a prohibitive tax on all ammunition and reloading equipment/material, 3. Litigating against firearm and ammunition manufacturers for their use, 4. Banning large swaths of firearms under the guise of "Assault Weapons Ban Acts" or "Law Enforcement Protection Acts" or other "sensible" gun-control acts, 5. Usurping state licensing laws by enacting a capricious federal licensing scheme, etc.
 
One thing people need to remember is that many Jews in the US emigrated in the late 19th / early 20th century. These Jews never saw the rampant antisemitism of Nazi-Germany, indeed many lived quite comfortable lives in Europe.
 
Especially since IIRC Hitlers rise to power was on the premise that the Jewish people were evil and Hitler was the only one capable of stopping us.

I'll pile on and add that Jews in Germany were already heavily discriminated against as early as pre-World War I. Under the German Empire (what the nazis referred to as the First Reich) they couldn't have military commissions, vote, etc. Hitler came to power to try and restore that level of discrimination since the Versailles provided some new abilities (it would be inaccurate to call them rights) for Jews under the democratic government established under Versailles. He blamed versailles for everything, and the jews return to some level of prominence during the '20s was seen as a cause of all of Germany's economic problems. Versailles was in no way intended to directly help the Jews since they were roundly disliked in the rest of europe too, but the idea of versailles was to put the entire population back on even footing with each other and so the Jews benefitted from that.
 
I think the main problem is it is too easy for people to ignore history . . .
-Mike

While I do not disagree with some of the points made in this thread, or by Mike, I think it is no less important for us not to ignore history, too.

The OP mentioned Ruby Ridge and Waco. I don't have much direct knowledge of Waco, but in the case of Ruby Ridge, the federal agents had been issued an arrest warrant for Randy Weaver. They had no discretion not to attempt to execute it. It was Weaver who elected to resist lawful authority by deadly force, an engagement that often leads to unhappy and unnecessary consequences. All of the blame for what happened there rests on Weaver's shoulders; this exercise proves nothing about any possible failings of the "gubmint."
 
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